Gas piping

CFH

ratio said:

347 said:

Town of North hempstead,N Y
Spoke an inspector today. He said he would not pass any union unless it's after a valve near an appliance. He could show me in any books though.

I'm assuming you meant "couldn't".

While I'd not put a union anywhere its not needed, the inspector is supposed to enforce the Code, not his favorite practices. That generally means he's got to be able to point it out in text somewhere; can't show it in the book isn't something I'd willingly let slide.

CFH

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Think about what we are all saying.

Let's say that you want to cut a tee into an existing main to feed a new piece of equipment. With threaded pipe you can't get the tee in there without a union. So there is no restriction on unions unless the are in a wall or other location you can't get to they have to be accessable. And left right coupling are hard to find.

Are you going to take maybe 100s of feet of pipe apart just to install a new tee? I don't think so. I would like to see the code section that prohibits unions.

Just because they call for unions at an appliance doesn't mean they can't be installed elsewhere.

Are we going to prohibit flanges on gas piping too?

CFH

rick in Alaska said:

Sorry. Unions are also allowed at appliance locations. They just didn't want them in the main line piping. As with all "rules", that also is totally up the inspector. I guess the golden rule is to know the inspector so you know what they look for.
Rick

CFH

rick in Alaska said:

Not that I do it anymore, but the local gas utility also has a say in what you can or can not do, according to their whim. Unions are only allowed immediately after a shutoff valve, and only outside. Unions on meter bars are acceptable because they are right after the main shutoff. The main thing about being after a valve is because if there is a leak, it can be shut down and repaired without shutting down the rest of the system.
Rick

please show me in the National Grid Blue book where unions are prohibited

CFH

OK

ratio

<sigh>

Please show me where it's good sense to get in a pissing match with an inspector. The same inspector I'm going to have to work with tomorrow. And the day after.

Oh, and please do it with a four-page quote. Maybe respond to each word individually or something.

CFH

Just want to know if unions are prohibited in the NYS fuel gas code. And if they are can somebody point that section out. 95% of my inspections go smoothly This was a code question.

pecmsg

You can recite all the codes you want. Bottom line the local jurisdiction having authority decides what allowed and what’s not. 

dko

You are spamming this..

Provisions or requirements of the Uniform Code may be varied or modified only pursuant to procedures established in Part 1205 or by such other regulations as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of State pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law.

Which is..

The Uniform Code shall be administered and enforced by the authority having jurisdiction. The identity of the authority having jurisdiction in a given situation is determined in accordance with Article 18 of the Executive Law and the regulations promulgated by the Secretary of State pursuant to Executive Law Section 381(1). In general, the authority having jurisdiction is the local government (city, town or village) in which the building or structure is located.

Which then turns to this
https://dos.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2021/05/2021-2018-03-more-restrictive-construction-standards_2020-update.pdf

Which then leads to local jurisdiction code like this
https://ecode360.com/11053903

No unions or running threads shall be permitted. Where necessary to cut out to repair leaks or make extensions, pipe shall be put together with right and left couplings.

And yes Massapequa Park is part of New York State.

So you cannot generalize the point you are trying to make. You can only definitively state something for a specific local jurisdiction.

If you need to make a point, point to a specific city within New York State. You cannot generalize NYS as a whole.

CFH

I am not telling you what to do as far as the local jurisdiction. I just want somebody to show me where in the NYS fuel gas code unions are prohibited.That is what this discussions is about. We all have to make decisions on how we conduct our business. The question is can you show me where they are prohibited after reading my 5 page post. I come in peace I am a plumber but I have not seen anyone show me where they are prohibited in the NYS fuel gas code or the National Grid blue book. Do what you want to pass inspections who I am to judge but let me know if you feel unions are prohibited and can you show me where they are prohibited..

CFH

dko said:

You are spamming this..

Provisions or requirements of the Uniform Code may be varied or modified only pursuant to procedures established in Part 1205 or by such other regulations as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of State pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law.

The Uniform Code shall be administered and enforced by the authority having jurisdiction. The identity of the authority having jurisdiction in a given situation is determined in accordance with Article 18 of the Executive Law and the regulations promulgated by the Secretary of State pursuant to Executive Law Section 381(1). In general, the authority having jurisdiction is the local government (city, town or village) in which the building or structure is located.

Which then turns to this
https://dos.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2021/05/2021-2018-03-more-restrictive-construction-standards_2020-update.pdf

Which then leads to local jurisdiction code like this
https://ecode360.com/11053903

No unions or running threads shall be permitted. Where necessary to cut out to repair leaks or make extensions, pipe shall be put together with right and left couplings.

And yes Massapequa Park is part of New York State.

So you cannot generalize the point you are trying to make. You can only definitively state something for a specific local jurisdiction.

If you need to make a point, point to a specific city within New York State. You cannot generalize NYS as a whole.

I do not know what you mean by spamming but I do see Massapequa Park prohibits unions. Did you see that in any other towns in Nassau County. I checked Oyster Bay and did not see it, Have you seen it in Hempstead or North Hempstead?

dko

The point is, even if the NYS Fuel Code allows unions- the local jurisdiction has rights to enforce stricter code and disallow it.

So the next time you do a gas job, be aware of what local jurisdiction you are in and follow their rules. That is all that matters.

Next time you fail an inspection because of a union in Hempstead- you can bring this up. If you fail it in Massapequa Park, you know the reason why.

It's simple..


Also side note:
if you do the ctrl+f on yourself with a phrase in your copy paste paragraphs such as "104.2 Waivers, variances, and modifications." You will see you posted the same thing 14 times in a row. Then 3 more times the next page. This is considered spamming.

CFH

CFH said:

dko said:

You are spamming this..

Provisions or requirements of the Uniform Code may be varied or modified only pursuant to procedures established in Part 1205 or by such other regulations as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of State pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law.

The Uniform Code shall be administered and enforced by the authority having jurisdiction. The identity of the authority having jurisdiction in a given situation is determined in accordance with Article 18 of the Executive Law and the regulations promulgated by the Secretary of State pursuant to Executive Law Section 381(1). In general, the authority having jurisdiction is the local government (city, town or village) in which the building or structure is located.

Which then turns to this
https://dos.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2021/05/2021-2018-03-more-restrictive-construction-standards_2020-update.pdf

Which then leads to local jurisdiction code like this
https://ecode360.com/11053903

No unions or running threads shall be permitted. Where necessary to cut out to repair leaks or make extensions, pipe shall be put together with right and left couplings.

And yes Massapequa Park is part of New York State.

So you cannot generalize the point you are trying to make. You can only definitively state something for a specific local jurisdiction.

If you need to make a point, point to a specific city within New York State. You cannot generalize NYS as a whole.

I am not clear on the spamming but I do see Massapequa Park prohibits unions. I assume Massapequa Park followed whatever procedure is needed for the more restrictive code. Did you see that in any other towns in Nassau County. I checked Oyster Bay and did not see it, Have you seen it in Hempstead or North Hempstead? I also appreciate you posting a written code and the more restrictive section. I am only trying to protect plumbers like my self from being penalized even though they followed the written code. I spammed the same code because most of the post were base on personal ideas. I am not against you I just want to know where unions are prohibited. Massapequa Park is one of the places. If they are prohibited in other places I stand corrected. If anyone else has info on where they are prohibited I would appreciate that info.

CFH

ok

Mad Dog_2

CHF...You're preaching to the Choir.   You sound like I did 25 years ago.  I get it!  I AGREE with you.  I have had my share of epic  battles  with inspectors...I won every one of them...THAT day.  This seems like it should be a black and white issue, but it's far from it:

1) Many sound interpretations of the same code.
2) Vastly different experience levels among inspectors.  
3) Issues of Insecurity & challenging their authority.
4) They don't like you because you give them "the business." 

So, I won the battles, but lost the War!
I had inspectors not return my repeated  calls .  I've had them make me wait ALL day and never show up. I've had them hold up the rough inspection on something they previously approved.  The Result??

- I didn't get the final or rough inspection sign off and I did NOT get the check I was counting on to pay the mortgage and Tuition.  Who wins??? Not I......

What I found that works for me is to learn what each inspector's pet peeves are, likes, dislikes, et cetera.  Do your best to satisfy their quirks - whether its right or wrong.  As long as doing what they want will not harm and kill anyone,  I'll try to do that.  Your demeanor and attitude is EVERTHING.  Just like getting pulled over by the Po Po, humility, non-aggressive behavior will usually get you  off with a warning or reduced Offense.  My buddy Teenage buddy JP who ran amok with me was just the opposite...hot headed, argumentative, uncooperative...guess who got all the summonses...???  Its the same with the inspectors, like it or NOT, they are the Authority, have secure Govt jobs and lawyers behind them and will gladly fight with you all day if thats the way you want to go.  Cops and Inspectors, I know many, are human too, and most are really good guys. Dealing with the General public is BRUTAL and they get worked up and nervous before inspections too!  Most of them just want to get through the day peacefully, go home, crack a Beer and watch the game.  

On the mechanical side. A properly doped and seated ground joint  Union is not going to leak ANY MORE than any other fittings. 
I agree on using unions ONLY at the appliance.  Anything that makes it more difficult for a DIY or GC to do our work I support.  Yes, I protect my Trade..Who doesn't?  

Last.  Once the inspectors get to see 3 or 4 of your jobs, and they are a cut above all the others, they lighten up TREMENDOUSLY.  They all talk...trust me...Word gets around fast...good and bad: "yeah Joe, you gotta see this guy's work...does the right thing!" 
OR...."Yeah Joe this guys a real B--- Buster, he challenges everything I ask for...he's pulling out the code book on me...real P.I.A.!"  Oh yeah Mike, I got an inspection with him tommorow in MY town...he better not try that with me.... " This is how it goes.  There ARE times to dig your heels 👠 in and fight, but you need to pick your battles."

                        Mad Dog  🐕 

CFH

I am with you. I have been doing this a long time and I know they talk because they told me and I get a long with most of them . They know my work and recognize it and sometimes I do work for them. This discussion was about unions be prohibited and in most of NYS except for NYC and now I know Massapequa Park that is not the case. There may be other places where they are prohibited, maybe other plumbers will let us know. In your opinion do you believe unions are only allowed after the appliance shut off valves? Do you agree the codes states that if something is not prohibited by the code it is not prohibited. Please don't make me tell you the story of how I went to the chief plumbing inspector in Queens with 15 different versions of the same OP-98 and every time he told me something was wrong I just handed him another version until he gave up. I think he was arrested and I gave up my fire suppression and plumbing license in the city. Thank You for your response

Mad Dog_2

Is this my Old Buddy, The Great Plumber and Steamfitter of Sea Cliff, Bill Traube? 
Bill was the best, and went to battle with countless inspectors..and he was ALWAYS  right..but he often paid a heavy price because of it.  Eventually drove him out of NY.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

I fully agree that it is very ambigous and if it is NOT specifically prohibited,  you should be able to do it.  But a Jail House Lawyer,  and the inspector will argue, that there are too many scenarios for the code to cover all situations., and that it is AT THEIR DISCRETION to rule as they see fit.   I had just such a situation recently with a backwater valve install and and a Confused HO.  I follow the older, superior code which is very specific about location.  The two other plumbers and Inspectors wanted to put it in another spot (inferior location but new code allows it) I made my case,  talked to the inspector, see what he preferred.  I withdrew from the job before anything was done, but I made it very clear to the HO with drawings and quotes from the code to show him the difference and why...Just to prove my case and because Everyone's thinking 🤔 I'm just being difficult and going against what everyone else is doing (The Dumbing down of the Code).  After I made my case to The HO, he was convinced what I was telling him, agreed, my location WAS superior, but I was done with the dance.  Its very frustrating and disheartening when you're the sole voice of logic and common sense in a room. Egos...Super Egos and the  "smartest man in the room" complex often get in the way of the BEST job getting done. The  Last of The Mohicans...I'm fine with that...Mad Dog  🐕 

Solid_Fuel_Man

About a decade ago I was asked by a local town if I wanted the (then open) inspector job. I was like "OH HE** NAH" the guy asking me was a bit thrown aback by my response. 

I told him that I liked my job, and I didn't believe in everything the Code had in it. I could not in good conscience enforce something which I didn't believe in fully. 

Safety is paramount in all of the trades, buy sometimes there are numb things which don't make any sense. 

I for one, do not like Unions. I also am in propane land, so copper is king. Hard pipe, a lot of guys are megapressing gas lines to avoid the use of Unions. 

But I am in Maine, not NY. Vote with yoyr work, if you are driven crazy leave. 

Electrification will save us all the headache of arguing about fuel gas code! 

CFH

dko said:

The point is, even if the NYS Fuel Code allows unions- the local jurisdiction has rights to enforce stricter code and disallow it.

So the next time you do a gas job, be aware of what local jurisdiction you are in and follow their rules. That is all that matters.

Next time you fail an inspection because of a union in Hempstead- you can bring this up. If you fail it in Massapequa Park, you know the reason why.

It's simple..


Also side note:
if you do the ctrl+f on yourself with a phrase in your copy paste paragraphs such as "104.2 Waivers, variances, and modifications." You will see you posted the same thing 14 times in a row. Then 3 more times the next page. This is considered spamming.

There is nothing wrong with knowing the code. I don't know how I got to 14 I must of been crazed. I apologize and will try to remove most of them. Thank You for the Massapequa park code

CFH

1

CFH

ok

Mad Dog_2

As far as I know, as of a few years ago, NO municipality in the ENTIRE state filed the necessary Paperwork to supercede the code with a greater restriction.  That is the ONLY way they can override the code. For example, if a certain municipaliy denies the use of PVC on DWV, they must have this waiver from the NYS code authority. If they didn't file that, they are on shaky ground.  Good luck fighting them on it!    Maybe this has changed?   That's the last I heard.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Intplm.

I remember the guys installing one thing a little off on purpose on some jobs. You would think that this would make an inspector look more closely at your work. Nope. He would point it out, and we would tell him we will correct it and that was it. He then would leave satisfied.
I would see some inspectors show up and after they get to know you would pass with barely a look at the work.

@347 I hope you find your answer. I have often just asked the inspector what is allowed. They seem always happy to help when asked.

ratio

Intplm. said:

I remember the guys installing one thing a little off on purpose on some jobs. You would think that this would make an inspector look more closely at your work. Nope. He would point it out, and we would tell him we will correct it and that was it. He then would leave satisfied.
I would see some inspectors show up and after they get to know you would pass with barely a look at the work.

I can go one better. I knew an inspector who was going to find some wrong—but it didn't matter what trade! I threw a lot of other trades under the bus before he was fired.

Intplm. said:

@347 I hope you find your answer. I have often just asked the inspector what is allowed. They seem always happy to help when asked.

This. At least around here, the inspectors are trying to help. If you're up against something that you think might go sideways if you guess wrong, get the inspector in for a consult. They want their job to be easy too, so doing it the way they want will only make your job easier.

CFH

This is what the NYS Code council had to say at their last March23 meeting regarding DOB making their own rules.
https://dos.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2023/04/code-council-march-31-2023-draft-meeting-minutes.pdf

Bill Tuyn respectfully disagreed and noted that it is important that we have a Uniform Code and
that special conditions need to be demonstrated before we depart from the uniformity. NYS joined the
International Code Council (ICC) family of model codes, which is intended to have the same code across
the country, but includes provisions that accommodate geographic differences. It is the Code Council’s
job to do the same thing in NYS unless there is some overriding reason to depart. This way when people
build, it isn’t a separate building code in every community. When we move across municipal lines builders
shouldn’t have to learn thousands of new pages of code. Bill Tuyn indicated that anecdotal evidence
saying a Town is unique because they’re growing, without providing statistical evidence, is not enough to
support the Town’s claim of special conditions.


Link to code council page https://dos.ny.gov/code/code-development

CFH

MY Question


Kevin Duerr-Clark, P.E.

Assistant Director of Code Development



I have a question regarding the NYS fuel gas code that I believe is based on the ICC fuel gas code. I recently had a gas inspection in the Town of Oyster Bay, NY and the inspector told me unions were prohibited in gas lines and the only exception was after the appliance shut off valve. The inspector based his decision on

409.5.1 Located within same room. The shutoff valve
shall be located in the same room as the appliance. The
shutoff valve shall be within 6 feet (1829 mm) of the
appliance, and shall be installed upstream of the union,
connector or quick disconnect device it serves.

Please let me know if the intention of the NYS Fuel Gas Code was to prohibit unions is gas piping except after the appliance shutoff valve.

Their reply
Our Response: The Uniform Code of New York State represents the minimum construction standards. It’s the least you can do to legally construct. 409.5 of the Fuel Gas Code of New York State states the requirements for shut off valves at appliances. 409.1.2 of the Fuel Gas Code of New York State states where shut off valves are not allowed. I did not find any regulation that would prevent the installation of additional unions or shutoff valves within the gas supply system.

Please let us know if we can provide additional assistance.

ellis

Senior Architect, CEO

New York State Department of State

Division of Building Standards and Codes

Technical Support Unit

Western NYS Regional Office

www.dos.ny.gov

CFH

Thank you for contacting the Division of Buildings Standards and Codes.

Your Question: Please let me know if the intention of the NYS Fuel Gas Code was to prohibit unions is gas piping except after the appliance shutoff valve.

rick in Alaska

As the answer said, this is the minimum code. The local jurisdiction (gas supplier) can and do add on things they want. In the area I was in, unions could be used in an exterior location, but immediately after a valve. Unless I remember wrong, they could not be used in a crawlspace except at the appliance shutoff. They also had other rules such as you couldn't have a meter under a slope of a metal roof unless it was protected against snow shear, and about 8 other rules they added which I can't remember now.
They can add whatever they want, as long as it is at least the minimum code.
Rick

ChrisJ

rick in Alaska said:

As the answer said, this is the minimum code. The local jurisdiction (gas supplier) can and do add on things they want. In the area I was in, unions could be used in an exterior location, but immediately after a valve. Unless I remember wrong, they could not be used in a crawlspace except at the appliance shutoff. They also had other rules such as you couldn't have a meter under a slope of a metal roof unless it was protected against snow shear, and about 8 other rules they added which I can't remember now.
They can add whatever they want, as long as it is at least the minimum code.
Rick

How about the fact that utilities and apparently LPG companies can essentially make up their own code?

Apparently if you rent an LPG tank and that company installs it they're liable so they don't have to follow local code. Same with natural gas companies from what I've seen.

rick in Alaska

Yes they can basically make up their own code, but it has to meet minimum requirements of the local adopted codes.
Rick

ChrisJ

rick in Alaska said:

Yes they can basically make up their own code, but it has to meet minimum requirements of the local adopted codes.
Rick

Not the ones I've seen.
For example. burying an LPG line 6" down and saying "That's deep enough".

And then the inspector passing it.

If I do it, it has to be 24".

GGross

ChrisJ said:

rick in Alaska said:

As the answer said, this is the minimum code. The local jurisdiction (gas supplier) can and do add on things they want. In the area I was in, unions could be used in an exterior location, but immediately after a valve. Unless I remember wrong, they could not be used in a crawlspace except at the appliance shutoff. They also had other rules such as you couldn't have a meter under a slope of a metal roof unless it was protected against snow shear, and about 8 other rules they added which I can't remember now.
They can add whatever they want, as long as it is at least the minimum code.
Rick

How about the fact that utilities and apparently LPG companies can essentially make up their own code?

Apparently if you rent an LPG tank and that company installs it they're liable so they don't have to follow local code. Same with natural gas companies from what I've seen.

In my area (Michigan, ICC codes a few years behind east coast) they still have to follow local code, but usually the code is different when it is a utility company performing the work. There are still minimums they have to adhere to, but the utility is fully able to make additional more stringent requirements as they generally are liable for their own utility service, and they own it after all. Same thing with equipment manufacturers, they can set additional requirements for the installation of their equipment (most don't as that sells less units) one of the local officials favorite phrase from the code book is "Most stringent will apply" Where the code mentions minimum requirements or manufacturers recommendations.

On a side note note, I hear an absolute ton of talk about code as we sell to all the trades people locally. Generally when someone claims the local inspectors are making up code there is just a misunderstanding. I have lost count of the times someone came to me and said "did you know this product is illegal to install?? Yup the inspector told me so! they made up a new code!" only to find out the person was completely misunderstanding what the official told them. We get contractors from southern MI who come up to do work and they will tell us how the local building dept makes up new codes here, one time I followed up on the tip and it turns out there are just different requirements depending on where you are in the state because it crosses climate zones.

Very rarely (but at least once in my case) you have what @CFH is talking about occur, where it is pretty clear that a local building official has just interpreted the code in a way it was not intended. Unfortunately the ICC book (at least the 2015 ver) clearly states that the codes are up to the building officials interpretation. They can still be advised on a state level if they have interpreted it incorrectly, and it is important to note that the vast majority of "Inspectors" do not qualify as a "Building Official" at least here that is the title for the person who runs the building department.

CFH

In NYS the local jurisdiction can only add rules after they apply to NYS and are approved for the more restrictive code. Oyster Bay or any other Nassau County NY town did not do this. The question is will the NYS code council enforce that rule. If you do good quality and do not ask for any favors from the inspector you should not be penalized will codes that are not real. All the NYS codes can be found at the above links.

EBEBRATT-Ed

There is no prohibition of using unions unless they are concealed. But every inspector has "his " way. Makes no sense.

CFH

NYS law says the code is the code

1. Pursuant to Section 383(1) of the Executive Law,
and except as otherwise provided in paragraphs a, b,
and c of Section 383(1) of the Executive Law, the
provisions of the Uniform Code supersede any other
provision of a general, special or local law, ordinance, administrative code, rule or regulation inconsistent or in conflict with the Uniform Code;

CFH

3. The ability of any city, town, or village, or the
County of Nassau, to enact or adopt, and to enforce,
a local law or ordinance imposing higher or more
restrictive standards for construction within the
jurisdiction of such city, town, village, or county
that are applicable generally to such city, town, village, or county in the Uniform Code is subject to the
provisions and requirements of Section 379 of the
Executive Law.

Mad Dog_2

Good Work, Paul.  I give you credit for pursuing it.  We've been discussing/complaining about this for 25 years on Long Island 🏝! Most guys don't want the grief and battle on every job.  Good for you, man!  
Mad Dog  🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Did you have any dealings with Courtney Nation? Mad Dog 🐕 

CFH

Never heard of Courtney Nation. I will pursue the procedure one follows when an inspector applies his own personal code. It is the customers that pays I includes the codes that are made up in my estimates and the real code and price for both. This way the know who to blame when they have to pay extra.
The most important part answering 347 original question, according to the NYS Code council the ones who writes the codes for NYS Unions are not prohibited anywhere in the gas piping system. The ICC gas code and NFPA 54 are all pretty much the same. The Answer is unions are allowed