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Gas piping

347347 Member Posts: 112
Hello All, I need a little help in finding out about allowable fitting location on gas piping. I looked in the NFPA54 book and could not find what I needed.
I have a job that has a union in the middle of a gas pipe in crawl space . I know you need a union near an appliance (after the service valve) to connect it. I remember reading that a union cannot be installed in the middle of a gas pipe accessible or not. I'm looking for the wording in the Fuel gas code but I'm not having any luck. Does anyone know what chapter or section I need to look for this information?
Thanks in advance.

Comments

  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,443
    Could always use right/left fittings...
  • From the UPC:


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    mattmia2
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,443
    or i guess you can't use left/right fittings. although you would have to dig through the definitions section to figure out if a crawl space qualifies as "concealed"
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,443
    I was going to look it up and type it in. that is much easier.*considers looking up the precise definition of "fair use"*
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 7,099
    You can use unions anywhere you want.......except not in a concealed location.......(like in a wall)

    A crawl space is not a concealed location in my opinion
  • It's been my experience that unions are only allowed at the appliance. At least that's the code where I work.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.

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  • 347347 Member Posts: 112
    Alan, That's what i thought also. Ed, this crawl space is a close to a concealed location as I've been in.
    Thanks for the inout.
  • BillyOBillyO Member Posts: 199
    what state?city?
  • 347347 Member Posts: 112
    Town of North hempstead,N Y
    Spoke an inspector today. He said he would not pass any union unless it's after a valve near an appliance. He could show me in any books though.
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 7,099
    I never herd of any restrictions on unions except in a concealed location.

    That being said they tend to be leakers so there use should be kept to a minimum IMHO.
  • IronmanIronman Member Posts: 5,685
    I'm not follow some of the reasoning here. The code says not in a concealed location, and I get that.

    What's the reasoning that says it's okay at an appliance, but not elsewhere? If the concern is it leaking, what's the difference if it leaks at an appliance or in the middle of a run? Again, assuming it's not concealed. A leak is a leak anywhere on the line.
    Bob Boan


    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    mattmia2
  • Probably because everything was hard-piped in the old days. What else was there other than a union to disconnect an appliance?
    Unions in the middle of a run were not allowed because why? I imagine that a leaking union in a wall is the devil to get to. A few of those and you change the code to prohibit them.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.

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  • ratioratio Member Posts: 2,496
    347 said:

    Town of North hempstead,N Y
    Spoke an inspector today. He said he would not pass any union unless it's after a valve near an appliance. He could show me in any books though.

    I'm assuming you meant "couldn't".

    While I'd not put a union anywhere its not needed, the inspector is supposed to enforce the Code, not his favorite practices. That generally means he's got to be able to point it out in text somewhere; can't show it in the book isn't something I'd willingly let slide.

    ZmanCanucker
  • BillyOBillyO Member Posts: 199
    411.1.6 in NYC Fuel Gas Code references unions. installed on rigid appliance connections. Must be accessible and within 6 feet of shutoff. Interpret from there
    ratio
  • 347347 Member Posts: 112
    Ironman, I get where your coming from. A leak is a leak. But I was told many years ago by a LILCO (Gas company at the time) employee that a union was not aloud on the piping except near an appliance and after the service valve. The reasoning was that sometimes the vibration can back the lock nut off and could leak.

    Ratio, Yes, he couldn't show me.

    Billy O, Thank you for your effort. I found that section on my book also. The way I read the "411" section it refers to connecting appliances .

    I was hoping to find something about a union on the middle of the piping. The job had an generator and kitchen upgrade. The person just added a tee to the gas piping feeding the boiler, a valve then a union and ran about 30' of piping for the kitchen. Looks like the started at both ends and ended in the middle and put a union.
    Hope that make sense.
  • gennadygennady Member Posts: 786
    edited July 24
    BillyO said:

    411.1.6 in NYC Fuel Gas Code references unions. installed on rigid appliance connections. Must be accessible and within 6 feet of shutoff. Interpret from there

    That is a requirement.

    But forbidden locations are

    404.3 Piping in concealed locations. Portions of a piping system installed in concealed locations shall not have unions, tubing fittings, bushings, compression couplings, or swing joints made by combinations of fittings.

    One can assume that installation of unions allowed in not forbidden locations.

    I never argue with the inspector, and I personally agree with the inspectors on this subject.

    We are using left/right couplings for connections.
    Gennady Tsakh



    Absolute Mechanical Co. Inc.

    www.AbsoluteMechanicalCoInc.com
    mattmia2BillyO
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,985
    How about CSST connections to iron pipe fittings?
    They are 1/2 unions and the manifolds might be anyplace, but accessible, and not necessarily close to an appliance.
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,443
    gennady said:

    BillyO said:

    411.1.6 in NYC Fuel Gas Code references unions. installed on rigid appliance connections. Must be accessible and within 6 feet of shutoff. Interpret from there

    That is a requirement.

    But forbidden locations are

    404.3 Piping in concealed locations. Portions of a piping system installed in concealed locations shall not have unions, tubing fittings, bushings, compression couplings, or swing joints made by combinations of fittings.

    One can assume that installation of unions allowed in not forbidden locations.

    I never argue with the inspector, and I personally agree with the inspectors on this subject.

    We are using left/right couplings for connections.
    I'm at work and don't have a copy handy, but the michigan residential code lists left/right fittings in the same category of forbidden fittings as unions.
  • ratioratio Member Posts: 2,496
    I guess it's time to go to all-welded piping. :naughty:  :sunglasses:
    mattmia2
  • realliveplumberrealliveplumber Member Posts: 28
    We cut in with unions in crawlspaces and basements all the time.

    Course you could megapress a slip coupling in a concealed location........just saying.
  • BillyOBillyO Member Posts: 199
    Gennady, thanks for pointing that out. wasn't in my hard copy . looks like an added bulletin. greatly appreciated
  • Oh, the beauty of a drip leg. So easy for a tie-in. They should be required every 10 feet.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.

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    ratioJUGHNE
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,985
    I usually use a couple of tees rather than 90's and a 2" nipple and cap for future use. These are all exposed in the basement.
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 7,099
    Think about what we are all saying.

    Let's say that you want to cut a tee into an existing main to feed a new piece of equipment. With threaded pipe you can't get the tee in there without a union. So there is no restriction on unions unless the are in a wall or other location you can't get to they have to be accessable. And left right coupling are hard to find.

    Are you going to take maybe 100s of feet of pipe apart just to install a new tee? I don't think so. I would like to see the code section that prohibits unions.

    Just because they call for unions at an appliance doesn't mean they can't be installed elsewhere.

    Are we going to prohibit flanges on gas piping too?
  • gennadygennady Member Posts: 786
    In NY now any work on gas requires gas qualification. Meter piping cannot even be done by master plumber, if he does not possess gas qualification. Utility do not allow plumber to drop the meter. $35k fine. To close valve before the meter utility must be called, and to open valve gas authorization from DOB required, only then utility turn gas on.
    Gennady Tsakh



    Absolute Mechanical Co. Inc.

    www.AbsoluteMechanicalCoInc.com
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,443
    edited July 25
    These are the 2015 michigan residential codes. The 2003 code listed prohibited fittings, but the 2015 code lists permitted fittings:









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