Gas piping

Mad Dog_2

Man on a Mission!!! Paul Goes to Washington (Albany)!!! Its been a few years since I spoke to him, but Courtney Nation was THE MAN that answered, discussed and was the Gatekeeper on these conundrums.  Very nice man.  That's very smart to provide the code to the customer to get them in on the fight. I have done this when the need arose.  In fact, I did this 6 weeks ago and walked away from a potential job because of it. Licensed Master plumbers and especially the Long Island PHCC has been grappling with this very issue for many years with mixed success.  I have great respect for our inspectors and code officials and what they do to protect the Homeowner.  Its a very important job.  The crux of the problem is that the Current plumber doing the permitted work SHOULD NOT be responsible for all the existing code violations, and things not up to current code in the home or building.  Additionally, 5 plumbers will tell the HO 4 different things.  We need Parity....apples 🍎 to apples comparisons.   As you'll can see, I can debate till the Cows 🐄 come home, but when I had inspections and a young fambly with 3 kids, If that job didn't pass, I was not getting a Check from the Homeowner, and the kids Tuition and mortgage were late....Big Mama  no happy! You're behind the 8 ball and you just learn what certain inspectors want and do it just to keep moving and cash flow moving.   For example, One wanted Automatic Grease interceptors (big bucks!) NOT passive units; some Want AAVs (air admittance valve aka Studor Vents) some forbade them; some want Wet Venting on sanitary...some forbid it;  most make you test the entire gas piping of the building even though your just adding a new branch for BBQ or Fireplace, a few will let you air test the new piping and soap 🧼 test the rest (VERY FAIR); some would make you sheetrock the ceiling above the boiler some wouldn't even mention it. (My truck says Plumbing  & Heating not General contractor!! )  So, as you well know, Paul, you wind Up prepping the HO before the inspection so you don't have to eat all these extra expenses and time!  Even then its difficult.  You finally get to know Vinny The Inspector in East Cupcake 🧁 and know what his pet peeves, likes and dislikes are!  You call up the Town..."Vinnys on vacation, we'll send Gus today!"   Oh S---- Gus is gonna break my chops on ....." Getting inspections were always the most nerve wracking part of my week.  You're at THEIR mercy!  No matter how perfect and compliant your install is, they can pick out something they don't like.  Over the years, when they know you do great work, care, and are not hiding anything from them, 95% of them are great, become very friendly and will support you with a skeptical HO or builder in an issue. I recall the First Burnham Megasteam I installed (I was so psyched).  I gave the HO a Super Deluxe Install with King Valves, Drop header, painted pipe, polished Copper. New Garber Filter mounted to boiler... I went to town. This job was FLAWLESS!  The HO was a decent guy but a Doubting Thomas and Know it all.  When the Inspector came to look at the install, the HO made a serious,  snide crack like "do you think Matt did a decent job? Did I get my money's 💰 worth here? " I happened to get the Chief Plumbing inspector of The Largest Township in America 🇺🇸.   He rarely got out of the office but had 40 years in.  He turned to the HO and lectured him for 5 full minutes on  what a nice job he got and how lucky he was to have me install this.."This should be in a museum, Pal!" He finished with.  It was bordering on embarrassing how he lit this guy up..but I was loving it with a straight face.....   It felt great though.  He was not an easy inspector and It was an Honor to hear him berate Doubting Thomas.  Mad Dog  🐕 

CFH

Is Courtney Nation a NYS group or a private group?

CFH

I was just in Washington on different business but I was there.
A person asked a question and I wanted to give him a correct answer. What he does with that answer is his decision. I appreciate the info on Courtney Nation. If you look at the post most of the answers are based on speculation and rumors passed down throughout the years. If you give enough people enough info you may be able to correct the problem. You obviously have a lot of knowledge and I do not think we scratched the surface on that. I think you need a different forum maybe a monthly article in PM magazine along with a website possibly sponsored by the PHCC. Maybe it could be called code help.com, target the customers as well as the professionals. If legally possible or if you have enough slander insurance a wall of shame could be set up and people can post their interactions with various officials. We are both long islanders what about a weekly article in Newsday depending on who they like right now. Like the Auto Doctor article or how about a blog "How did this fail" plumbers can post pictures of their beautiful work and ask how did this fail? We are both old and have a lot to say lets put down the wrenches and pick up the pens. I will gladly be the laborer.

dko

CFH said:

Is Courtney Nation a NYS group or a private group?

A person's name.
For technical support on Uniform Code
Long Island Counties
Nassau County plus the Towns of Huntington and Babylon
Code enforcement official - Courtney Nation - 631-952-4915

Note:

The best way to reach the Technical Support Unit for technical support on the Uniform Code is via email at: codes@dos.ny.gov. Calling the phone numbers may result in a significant delay in response.

CFH

Thank You

Mad Dog_2

He's Actual person. Native American I believe.  Very pleasant.  Speak for yourself Paulie...I ain't OLD yet!!!! Ha ha.. I can still run circles around the youngsters on a boiler! We can work on this and get PHCC help too!  I'm in...  Mad Dog

CFH

I thought the line was I ain't dead yet. If you know what that line is from you might be old. I will call Courtney Nation.

In the interest of my customer I did remove the union and replace it with the left right. I did not reveal the left right until I made my case about the unions. It was a pleasant exchange, lots of highlighted codes and laws and ended on a friendly note. Maybe on the next inspection he won't be so eager to fail me for fun. Knowledge is very helpful.

Did you call PM about your new section yet. I will set up the boat with an internet connection and those screens that can be seen in bright sunlight. Maybe the 1st article can be wrenches to pens and poles. I will wrap the boat in the PHCC logo and make it a business expense.

CFH

This is the response from the ICC on unions in gas piping

From: Jason Toves
Sent: May 23, 2
Subject: ICCTO-787 Are unions only allowed in gas piping after the appliance shut off valves.

—-—-—-—
Reply above this line.

Jason Toves has commented on your request:

Following is the response to your question.

May 22, 2023

RE: 21 IFGC 404.1 and 404.9.5.1

A: No, Section 404.9.5.1 requires the shutoff valve to installed upstream of the union, connector or quick disconnect device it serves, without prohibiting shutoff valves from other locations within the piping system. The intent of the provision is to install the shutoff valve such that the appliance can be replaced by disconnecting the piping system from the appliance with the shutoff valve in place. Finally, Section 404 does not prohibit unions elsewhere in the piping system.

You may reply to this email to add comments to your request.

Jason Toves resolved this as Answered.

Copyright © 2023 International Code Council, Inc. All rights reserved.

Code opinions issued by ICC staff are based on ICC-published codes and do not include local, state or federal codes, policies or amendments. This opinion is based on the information which you have provided. We have made no independent effort to verify the accuracy of this information nor have we conducted a review beyond the scope of your question. This opinion does not imply approval of an equivalency, specific product, specific design, or specific installation and cannot be published in any form implying such approval by the International Code Council. As this opinion is only advisory, the final decision is the responsibility of the designated authority charged with the administration and enforcement of this code..

CFH

Form New York State
Department of State
Division of Building Standards
and Codes
One Commerce Plaza
99 Washington Avenue, Suite 1160
Albany, NY 12231-0001
Phone: (518) 474-4073
Fax: (518) 486-4487
www.dos.ny.gov
Notice and Petition Relating to More Restrictive Construction
Standards (Uniform Code – Executive Law § 379

EBEBRATT-Ed

@CFH

I agree. Too many rumors across the supply house counters and not enough time spent reading the code book.

Inspectors have their pet peeves even when they are not supposed too.

CFH

Check out NYS Municipal Home Rule Law and see what the local muncipalities can and cannot change. Just started looking into that

CFH

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/MHR/11

CFH

Here is a link to a survey by the Nassau County Controller for anyone who had a problem with the Town of North Hempstead DOB
https://us21.list-manage.com/survey?u=6b72dbca942fe21bd43d07ce7&id=12fa710fe9&e=94a9d1f49f

Mad Dog_2

You're becoming a very good Jailhouse Lawyer, Paul. We could use you down at PHCC..hint hint...ha ha 😂 🤣 😆 .Mad Dog 🐕 

CFH

I'm in. I just need to finish a few projects first

CFH

Did you get the email from then Nassau County comptroller

Mad Dog_2

Yes..Paul..it was awesome...Every town and village should be able to be rated like that.  It keeps standards high, Confusion to a minimum, and keeps everyone on their toes...Mad Dog 🐕 

CFH

New Battle Mad Dog. Nothing to do with heating but about insulation so I will not post it.

pecmsg

CFH said:

New Battle Mad Dog. Nothing to do with heating but about insulation so I will not post it.

6 months later?

Intplm.

Not to resurrect this post. One thing not mentioned (or at least I didn't see it ).
I feel that the language should be changed to include accessible or readily accessible. Many a union have been found above drop ceilings come to mind but, readily and readily accessible? Would this be a better choice?

Bob Harper

Unless a local ordinance states to the contrary, the applicable state or national gas code will prevail. Code officials are not code legislators or dictators- they only have power to enforce codes legally adopted. The AHJ has the right to require extra supports, such as at offsets and joints. Ground unions in a run should be supported on both sides so there is no strain on the joint. That's the main reason they leak. Also, while not in the gas code, ground unions were designed as dry joints- no dope, FYI, the Copper Handbook expressly states no dope or tape on flares and do not reuse fittings. Should be same with ground unions. They have a brass seat that deforms when the joint is made, swaging it to a custom fit.
Medium pressure regulators require a shutoff, sediment trap and ground union upstream of the MP reg.. Rarely see it. Back in the day we had to unscrew half of the house sometimes. Today, we cut the pipe then use MegaPress fittings. No leaks so far but don't forget to support properly.