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1918 vs 2020

Robert O'BrienRobert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,188
We all know the effects of the 1918 pandemic on heating system design. What effect does this have going forward?
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Comments

  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Member Posts: 4,115
    I think many people will be talked into (or think they need) some type of modifications to their air systems (UV lights, filtration), which will be pretty much useless.
    But overall, people will forget about it when they see the costs.
    ---
    I do a lot of fueling for a large generator company. The get overwhelmed with calls after a major weather event for people wanting generators. After the emergency is over, no one wants a generator. I think the owner told me less than 10% of the people actually end up getting an estimate, and maybe 1 person gets a generator installed.
    ---
    The only HVAC product that always gets priority is AC. When it's broke it 'has' to be fixed/replaced 'immediately'. Everything else, people are concerned only until the 'emergency' is over.
    steve
    ratioIronmanSolid_Fuel_Man
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,724
    There is one huge difference between 1918 and 2020: in the former case, the world was coming out of a war in which casualties -- mainly of young men -- were so far in excess of what this virus has caused as to be almost impossible for 21sr century people to grasp. Passchendaele: almost 900,000 casualties (about 10,000 per day) for instance. Verdun: 305,000 dead. Just to cite two examples.

    Today there is a mindset that somehow denies the reality that people will die, sooner or later, and no one can know the day. This is related to a mindset that anything which promises to avoid a casualty or illness is of supreme value; everything else is of no concern.

    Where does this take us? I'm a little concerned that there may be real overkill in the requirements for "pure" air, which are going to be very costly both to install and operate. Also, related, there will be advice and suggestions from well-meaning, possibly impressively credentialed individuals who have no clue as to what they are talking about, never mind what unintended consequences may follow, but which will drive HVAC design and construction -- and which will be very difficult for professionals who do know what they are doing and why to counteract.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
    rick in AlaskaRich_49ttekushan_3
  • flat_twinflat_twin Member Posts: 248
    Interesting discussion on NPR's
    "Fresh Air" today about how the 1918 pandemic contributed to the first world war coming to an end. Also about president Wilson's mental status after he contracted the flu shortly after signing papers in Paris to end the war.
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 6,947
    Maybe more ERVs. It confounds me as to why more of those are not installed
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,724

    Maybe more ERVs. It confounds me as to why more of those are not installed

    I've never figured that one out, either, @EBEBRATT-Ed . If one already has forced air ducting, why not? Not that much extra ductwork, and they take very little power to run. There are a very few limited designs which can transfer at least some of the latent heat as well as sensible, but even sensible only units can pick up 70% of the outgoing heat -- and don't have any chance of transferring contaminants, such as virus. You wind up with a tightly sealed structure -- and good air quality (good filters are helpful...)

    On new construction with forced air or heat pumps, no brainer. I can see using them with other heat sources as well on new construction, though the ducting might be a nuisance.

    As a retrofit... hmm... maybe not so much benefit.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • rick in Alaskarick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,077
    Around here the houses are built very energy efficient, and HRV’s are installed. I don’t remember the break point, but because of winter/ summer humidity issues, ERV’s are mostly used in the southern climates, and HRV’s are used in northern climates.
    Some people will decide not to spend the money on a whole system and will put in a passive system, which consists of strategically placed louvers cut in to the exterior wall, and high efficiency bathroom fans. The fans are on a timer that typically has them come on for 20 minutes each hour. Usually the main problem with this is that the vents are placed up high in most rooms, and when that bathroom fan comes on, that cold air winds up dumping right on your head. A lot of these I have run across have the louver closed for this reason.
    Also, unlike an HRV, the passive system does not recover any of the lost heat.
    Rick
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 6,947
    @Jamie Hall

    Customer came to me with a heating and ventilating job designed by a PE. Hot water boiler with glycol and an AHU with 100% OA and exhaust fans on the roof. Basically a once through system.

    This was a storage space for hazardous chemicals. I suggested HRVs with no chance of air stream crossing, smaller boiler smaller AHU. Pay back in savings would pay for the whole job in 3 years. They wouldn't go for it went with the original design
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,724
    Figures... as @Steamhead is fond of saying, you can't fix stupid.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • Big Ed_4Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 1,320
    Price them for a cigar bar and a Hookah bar . Just priced them ... The lower 48
    I have enough experience to know , that I dont know it all
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 3,280
    There are a few niche builders on the south fork of Long Island, and I'm sure around the country, who build a controlled environment. Perfect air sealing, ERV's, humidification, dehumidification, UV lights, air filtration, a lot of "Green" in the way of geo, windows, and solar.

    And a box of booties at every outdoor entrance. I'm sure a box of masks will soon join them.

    Of course these are custom homes and are priced in the millions, but I wonder if the practice will become more popular now.
  • dopey27177dopey27177 Member Posts: 286
    With all the environmental controls available one would wonder why the design of a hospital operating room is not incorporated in housing.

    I need an investment group to patent my new environmental control.

    The system will cost $500. per 8,000 sq feet, it is no maintenance and has a life cycle of 10 years.

    I invented a magnet that attracts dust, mites viruses and bacteria, so if you want to buy in let me know.

    Jake
    JohnGellatlySolid_Fuel_Man
  • motoguy128motoguy128 Member Posts: 87
    pecmsg said:

    My BIL dental offices are refitting with MERV 13 filters, increasing occupied outside air to 30% and installing UV lights in all air handlers. There also looking at Personal UV A lights for each office.

    Lets see how that 30% OA works after the 1st electric bill of when the rooms get warm!

    Will see how 30% works in August with a 75F wetbulb. AC has ot run constantly at least on low stage out it’s a soggy mess indoors. You really need chilled water system for outdoor air over 10-20%


  • mferrermferrer Member Posts: 12
    I think the 2020 pandemic may effect hvac design and choice of consumer design that will be reflective of the political state of the U.S.; polarized. The struggle between new design engineering focusing on indoor air quality and affordability will be a big issue. Even a city or town that is need of a hospital is going to have to decide on whether to have more beds with a decent hvac system or less beds with the latest design. The average family will deal with the economics of their hvac in different ways. Some will be concerned with air quality, others will say it's a waste of money. Some will spend even less because they have no choice, others may look at their home as a sanctuary long after the pandemic is over. I think it will be a very mixed bag. It definitely appears that in the short term (next several years), the business will take a huge hit and it will be about band aids. Who can give me the best band aid. The highest value, so I can save or spend money elsewhere. I think whoever is the new "Hoffman," as in designing devices that are universal to most hvac systems will prosper.
  • EdTheHeaterManEdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 488
    I’m looking forward to the Roaring 20s >:)
    Robert O'BrienSolid_Fuel_Man
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,724
    I tend to agree, in part, with some of @mferrer 's comments just above. With this exception: the polarization will not only be real, but will be at least somewhat regional. There will be some states where the political and popular sentiment will be for maximum protection at any cost; there we will see much tighter regulatory (and sometimes even legal) control, not only on new HVAC, but mandatory retrofitting and, where that is not possible, condemnation of existing built environment, as well as major restrictions on many types of gatherings. Others will be much more inclined to let individual citizens and businesses determine what is needed.

    This will also lead to a significant redistribution of economic activity and jobs: areas with very tight regulation will become, and remain, areas of poverty, and jobs and business and manufacturing will move to areas which are less tightly restricted.

    This will also apply, to a lesser degree, to nations as whole, world-wide.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
    rick in Alaskattekushan_3Solid_Fuel_Man
  • unclejohnunclejohn Member Posts: 1,530
    I used too do a lot of work at little start up lab in Rockville that I won't name. They took over 1/2 a building and and turned in into lab space. They had a 10 ton Trane unit that was 100% fresh air and none of these brilliant scientist could figure out why it would not heat in Jan. or cool in July. I also installed my only ERV at one of the Doctors Town home which limited the in and out air ducts to through his brick wall. Was very pricey I thought and most of my customers would just open a window.
  • scott w.scott w. Member Posts: 127
    Any changes to HVAC equipment due to the pandemic will come from business first. Business's will spend money on filtration equipment to make employees and customers safe. Somebody somewhere at this minute is researching how to make a better widget to filtrate air and make a building safer. Never underestimate American ingenuity!

    As a home owner it makes no economic sense to spend money on changing my residential system unless I could get a guarantee the new equipment would be a virus killer. Don't think the science is there yet.
  • SlamDunkSlamDunk Member Posts: 794
    edited May 21
    A lot of snake oil will be sold. If you have hydronic heating, you're set for half the year!
  • EdTheHeaterManEdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 488
    SlamDunk said:

    A lot of snake oil will be sold. If you have hydronic heating, you're set for half the year!

    That stuff works,,, Uncle Wendel made a fortune on that stuff .

    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • The Steam WhispererThe Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 493
    Jamie, New York City has some of the tightest regulation of the built environment and certainly does not look like it is overwhelmed with poverty. The same can be said for California......both of these areas are some of the wealthiest in the country. In fact, most areas that have tighter building regulation (large cities in general) also have alot of wealth. Where I have seen the least regulation of the built environment, is in small towns and rural areas, which tend to have extensive poverty.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,724
    edited May 21
    I wasn't talking about the built environment... when you have a ruling oligarchy which decides what jobs you can -- and cannot -- have, and businesses you can -- and cannot -- run -- and who you can associate with and when and where, and what you can buy and how much of it... which is what we have now in some areas, and I have grave doubts that that ruling oligarchy will relinquish that willing, and certainly not rapidly. Things will not go well.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
    CLambttekushan_3Solid_Fuel_Man
  • SlamDunkSlamDunk Member Posts: 794
    edited May 21
    Uhh,what job did the ruling oligarchy give you? And what job did you really want?
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,724
    Oddly, @SlamDunk , I think I can honestly say I've never had a job -- or been a person, if you will -- I didn't want at the time. Further, I've been blessed by being able to change when the time seemed right. Unhappily, at the present time I am prohibited by the Governor of my State from doing the work I had freely chosen a few years ago and would have continued, at some risk to myself, and I have watched great personal tragedy as a result. My brothers and sisters in some other countries (or, at the present time, States) can't follow their calling at all, at risk of imprisonment.

    Perhaps this biases my point of view.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
    Robert O'BrienSolid_Fuel_Man
  • SlamDunkSlamDunk Member Posts: 794
    That makes a lot more sense than your previous post!

    Hang tight, there are 38 million people in who feel the same way.

    You're a minister of some sort, right? If so, then pick up the phone and minister to someone locked up and worried about their future. You wont even risk your health.
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,724
    SlamDunk said:

    That makes a lot more sense than your previous post!

    Hang tight, there are 38 million people in who feel the same way.

    You're a minister of some sort, right? If so, then pick up the phone and minister to someone locked up and worried about their future. You wont even risk your health.

    A monk, to be exact. And I've been working the 'phones and the computer for all they're worth. But... there is no substitute for being able to be there when a patient is dying... or a suicidal teen is working themselves up to it... or. And I've had both situations and others in the recent past. A simple hug does wonders. A telephone call or "video chat" is, bluntly, useless.

    Collateral damage is the term.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
    ratiottekushan_3Solid_Fuel_Man
  • jumperjumper Member Posts: 1,435

    @Jamie Hall

    Customer came to me with a heating and ventilating job designed by a PE. Hot water boiler with glycol and an AHU with 100% OA and exhaust fans on the roof. Basically a once through system.

    This was a storage space for hazardous chemicals. I suggested HRVs with no chance of air stream crossing, smaller boiler smaller AHU. Pay back in savings would pay for the whole job in 3 years. They wouldn't go for it went with the original design

    Maybe those unrestricted superduper rooftop exhausters are coded in somewhere? Designers find some code or regulation and then play it safe. For hazardous chemicals some regs may require positive pressure but other regs say opposite. I respect Department of Labour or Safety guy who makes the call.
  • JohnGellatlyJohnGellatly Member Posts: 2

    With all the environmental controls available one would wonder why the design of a hospital operating room is not incorporated in housing.

    I need an investment group to patent my new environmental control.

    The system will cost $500. per 8,000 sq feet, it is no maintenance and has a life cycle of 10 years.

    I invented a magnet that attracts dust, mites viruses and bacteria, so if you want to buy in let me know.

    Jake

    This seems like an outlandish claim, Jake. Do you have any facts or third party testing to back your claim up?
  • GWGW Member Posts: 3,732
    So a sterile environment means healthy living? Like the Boy In the Bubble? Ok
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    www.wilsonph.com
    [email protected]
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • SlamDunkSlamDunk Member Posts: 794
    A monk? Tell me more

    Twelve years of catholic school, i've known a few monks. Including my Uncle, who was a Carmelite monk.

    I never knew one who couldn't figure out how to do something they felt compelled to do.

    A stubborn bunch.

  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,724
    PM, @SlamDunk -- way off topic for the Wall!
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • JackmartinJackmartin Member Posts: 156
    The Flu of 1918 is now an eye blink in history, a truly horrible one , but people forget what is too painful to remember. In five years this will be back in the old days and no one will even give it a thought. The industry can only do much to help people to stay well. The flu of 1918 centers on fresh air hence radiation that would heat an apartment in the New York winter with all the windows open. This flu is spread by droplets and is not air borne like say measles etc. The only way out of this is to have the great minds of medicine come up with a vaccine, nothing else is going to work, certainly not anything we can provide. The best way to best the flu is to follow the medical guidelines, and stop second guessing people who have been to school for twenty years. I wonder if you have had the same experience I have had , people are so afraid of Covid until their a/c goes out. I have had people in our little heat wave of late tell me , they could care less what measures I am taking to prevent spreading the virus they are hot. Heat and discomfort seem to completely change people's priorities, better dead than hot. This is off target but, the best way not to become a person in the ICU is live a better life
    High blood pressure, heart desease, especially smoking, diabetes, these are things we can do something about. My wife specializes in pain control.for palliative care, she has had tragedies too many times to repeat, if people took responsibility for their health they might never see someone like her, she always hopes they never will.. Stay Well and Be Blessed Jack
  • Steve MinnichSteve Minnich Member Posts: 2,538
    @Jackmartin "In five years this will be back in the old days and no one will even give it a thought."

    Except for the family and friends of tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of people who lost loved ones.


    PHC News Columnist
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/minnich-hydronic-consulting-and-design
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,724

    @Jackmartin "In five years this will be back in the old days and no one will even give it a thought."

    Except for the family and friends of tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of people who lost loved ones.


    Not only to Covid. Let's not forget the ones who died, or died early, because they were turned away at hospitals. Or couldn't get diagnostic tests at their closed doctors' offices. Or continue their treatment for some problem (physical or mental). Or the damage to the education of hundreds of thousands if not millions of kids who lost a year of schooling which they can never really make up (particularly rural and urban lower class, who don't have access to the whizzy internet things). Or the ones thrown back into poverty when they had just begun to climb out, because they were locked out of their jobs.

    As I and my brothers and sisters look around us, around the world, we see far more damage from the "solutions" which have been enforced than from the disease, by a couple of orders of magnitude.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
    JUGHNERobert O'BrienSolid_Fuel_Man
  • SlamDunkSlamDunk Member Posts: 794
    I am interested in the reports of the Hong Kong flu during the late sixties. 100,000 people died then but it looked different than today. A similarly deadly respiratory virus but a completely different response.
    I was a toddler then so I have no recall of any one being worried. I guess after ww2, the Korean war, Vietnam war and medicine being what it was at the time, people were used to death.
  • Sal SantamauraSal Santamaura Member Posts: 310

    ...see far more damage from the "solutions" which have been enforced than from the disease, by a couple of orders of magnitude.

    Opinions are nice, but please provide data to support that rather specific allegation.
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,724
    Read The Economist for this week. And it is not an opinion. It is a plain statement of what I see in my own parish and what my brothers and sisters see around the world.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,797
    The Hong Kong flue, H3N2, of 1968-69 had 1 million worldwide deaths. The USA had 100,000 deaths out of a population of 200 million.

    The 2019-2020 thru March Influenza-A, common type of flu every year, has 63,000 USA deaths, so far.

    COVID-19 thru April 28, 2020 deaths 56,253 at that point.
    Now probably 100,000 or so........but USA population is 328.2 million.

    So far percentage wise the Hong Kong is ahead.

    The only reason my family is aware of the Hong Kong flu is that my 24 year old brother passed away from it in January of 1969.
    Otherwise it would have been just another typical flu/cold season.

    Stats are from a very interesting American Legion Magazine article of June 2020.
  • Sal SantamauraSal Santamaura Member Posts: 310

    ...it is not an opinion. It is a plain statement of what I see in my own parish and what my brothers and sisters see around the world.

    We've crossed the 100,000 death line. What dollar value do you assign to each lost life? What pandemic economic losses do you assess at 100 times that value times 100,000? How many more lives would have been lost without the lockdowns?

    Magazine articles behind paywalls are nice. They don't support what is most definitely an opinion. Data, please.

  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,724
    edited May 27
    Well, I'm sorry that you can't -- or don't want to read -- other news articles which are saying what I have said.

    However, I do not pretend to be an expert in an ivory tower, nor do I pretend to be a physician. Nor a left wing politician. All I can say is that what I have put down is my personal observation, and the observations of my brothers and sisters around the world, whether they are Benedictine, Franciscan, Augustinian, Carmelite or what ever, on the human cost of the efforts.

    In my own parish -- an admittedly very limited sample -- we have had no Covid-19 deaths (we have had 30 identified cases, however). We have had two suicides directly related to isolation. We have perhaps a couple of hundred people directly reliant on our food banks now -- people whose jobs have vanished, probably forever. We have at least 8 retail establishments which have gone bankrupt, their owners and their employees without a job, money, or hope. I know of six elderly people who have died alone, their friends and children unable to visit them. I do not know -- and probably never will know -- how many of the recovering alcoholics and drug addicts in our group therapy programs have relapsed.

    I do know the suffering which this has caused.

    Our schools are closed. Even our most privileged students are doing poorly with their "distance learning". Our less privileged ones are not doing at all, and the impact on their social development is total.

    We do not assign dollar values to human lives, nor to human suffering from whatever cause. To us, every human is equal -- whether a privileged westerner locked down in luxury, a poor Hispanic gig worker with no income, a Dalit in India with no job and no way to get home, a Ugandan too scared to get needed healthcare -- and now too poor to get food for herself or her children.

    Do not mistake me. Some measures are very valuable. Masks -- at least good ones. Social distancing within reason. Even contact tracing, perhaps, provided privacy is respected. I can see no good from the lockdowns. I can see no good from spreading fear and panic. I can see no good from prohibiting human contact at least among friends and families. And I see great evil -- and I do not use the term lightly -- from a privileged few forcing others to do what they themselves want done, even from the best of motives.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
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