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Since I am good at starting heated discussions

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Comments

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    Since we're all complaining,

    Am I the only one that's annoyed that four states use "Common wealth" in front of their name when it doesn't mean anything? I guess it sounds fancier.



    "Commonwealth" is a nomenclature used by four of the constituent states of the United States of America in their official, full state names. These states are Kentucky,[1] Massachusetts,[2] Pennsylvania,[3] and Virginia. The four are among the first 15 states to join the Union.

    This designation, which has no legal meaning, emphasizes that they have a "government based on the common consent of the people"[4] as opposed to one legitimized through their earlier royal colony status that was derived from the monarch of Great Britain.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    That's alot of information to skirt around the real question . When exactly was it that The government TOLD THE PEOPLE they must purchase a service or product from someone when they could manufacture or perform that work or service themselves as long as it was approved by the AHJ ?
    You did mention quite proudly it seemed that Mass is a Commonwealth , the definition is above . Did THE PEOPLE of the Commonwealth vote on this and if they did not what has changed in the cradle of freedom over the years ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    ChrisJ
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    Technology advanced and populations increased. People died so codes were made.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    So , did the Commonwealth and it's meaning also die ? Maybe you should stop calling it the Commonwealth
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    No worries about our Name. How does your state keep people from killing their neighbors?
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    So, just to add something to the conversation here. Lot of different people in this country with a lot of different ways. Right, wrong, indifferent, who knows. That's just how they prefer to do things. So I happen to be surrounded by a lot of Amish communities. They don't have electricity in their houses as you may or may not know. However, since the advent of codes and inspections, they now have to install electricity in every new house that they build. Everything has to meet code. As soon as they get their final inspection (occupancy permit) they rip it back out.

    That's a pretty clear violation of "freedom of religion" from my viewpoint.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592

    No worries about our Name. How does your state keep people from killing their neighbors?

    Don't know, but you'll notice people aren't blowing up left and right in PA or NJ.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    edited April 2015

    So, just to add something to the conversation here. Lot of different people in this country with a lot of different ways. Right, wrong, indifferent, who knows. That's just how they prefer to do things. So I happen to be surrounded by a lot of Amish communities. They don't have electricity in their houses as you may or may not know. However, since the advent of codes and inspections, they now have to install electricity in every new house that they build. Everything has to meet code. As soon as they get their final inspection (occupancy permit) they rip it back out.



    That's a pretty clear violation of "freedom of religion" from my viewpoint.

    I have mixed feelings on those rules.

    Somehow, people survived in my house back in the 1860s, and had three kids that all survived and the house had no plumbing or electric. Three wood\coal stoves and a kitchen sink with a pump that pumped out of a cistern that filled from the roof.

    I even have a map showing the outhouse.

    The house got city water that ran at 80 PSI in 1881. That doesn't seem like much later for some reason, but the house was already 15-20 years old at that point. And then, sewers in 1910, at that point the house was 45-50 years old. Steam heat in the 1920s, now 60+!


    They survived...
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    edited April 2015
    I'd like to add,

    My livingroom is 2x8's on a 15' span with 24" centers. It moves, quite a bit. My kitchen floor is 2x8s with 7 foot span and something like 36" centers.

    The windows are made awful.

    WAY under modern code requirements.

    Someone built this house who had little money and made it work for his family and it's still here 150 years later and now my family is using it.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    Don't get me wrong, I am not anti building code. I'm just saying, be smart about it. Let's do stuff that actually makes sense. Same goes for licensing.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    edited April 2015

    Don't get me wrong, I am not anti building code. I'm just saying, be smart about it. Let's do stuff that actually makes sense. Same goes for licensing.

    I realize that.
    Just pointing out what used to happen in America.

    Sure, a lot of people did things that either got people hurt or killed. That is why we have codes now and they're a good thing.

    You have no idea (or maybe you do) how annoying it is when your studs aren't at exact points. I couldn't even put a hand railing up without drilling a ton of holes and writing down random measurements.

    The floor joists moving also annoys me, but it is what it is. Not to mention most of my family are carpenters and I get quite a bit of heat from them regarding how this house is built. My dad almost fell down the attic stairs laughing the first time he came here.


    I just wonder sometimes if we're better off or not. We have a lot of homeless people that may have not been homeless 100 years ago. Sometimes it really doesn't feel like "The land of the free".
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    I've said it before, people's expectations have evolved just like technology. It's not that we can't live without all the bells and whistles, we just don't want to. The minimum requirements for comfortable and safe living today far surpasses what was considered safe and comfortable a 100 years ago. We are a soft society today and I'm good with that. Even many of the Amish youth leave that lifestyle once they get a chance to.

    Chris, I've seen a lot of old house with joists 24" on center. Can't say I've ever seen one with 36" on center unless they were actual logs.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    Fred said:

    I've said it before, people's expectations have evolved just like technology. It's not that we can't live without all the bells and whistles, we just don't want to. The minimum requirements for comfortable and safe living today far surpasses what was considered safe and comfortable a 100 years ago. We are a soft society today and I'm good with that. Even many of the Amish youth leave that lifestyle once they get a chance to.

    Chris, I've seen a lot of old house with joists 24" on center. Can't say I've ever seen one with 36" on center unless they were actual logs.

    Fred, believe it or not that flooring is by far the most solid in the house besides the basement floor. In fact that's where my monitor top is. I can even jump there with my knees locking and nothing moves and I'm almost 300 pounds. I have no idea how thick the subfloor is, but it's gotta be fairly thick.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    How can you require that someone put electricity into a home? I can understand requiring it be correct if installed, but....****.
    jonny88
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    Charlie hit on the key here. When we all had acres of land, the chance of one man causing harm to another because of bad wiring or plumbing was somewhat remote. Now with houses right next to each other it is all to easy for a fault in one house to directly impact people in the house next door.

    We are all free to do as we wish as long as it does not adversely impact someone else. I am responsible for seeing that none of my houses systems can cause a problem for someone else and i understand the need for inspections to be sure the systems are safe.

    This winter we had over 100" of snow in one month. I'm 68 and I shoveled all that snow off my sidewalks by hand and most of my neighbors did the same. They did it so the kids could safely walk to school and so the mailman could deliver the mail. A couple of blocks over a 9 year old kid was hit by a car because he had to walk in the street coming home from school where someone didn't shovel their sidewalk, I would hate to live with that on my conscience. That kid spent a week in the hospital but did make a full recovery.

    Freedom comes with a lot of responsibility.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    Charlie from wmassSWEI
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    @BobC

    My house is pretty close to my neighbors, maybe 10 feet on one side and 4 feet on the other and it's been this way since the 1860s.

    Not everyone had acres of land "back in the day".
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    I just want to make it clear, I am NOT against codes.
    I get it, we need them, not everyone has common sense.

    It's just, for example, the Amish example that doesn't seem right. They don't want or need electric but are forced to have it?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    Same here Chris, I have 12 -15 ft on both sides so if my house catches fire it could easily jump to the neighbors house. This neighborhood dates back to 1918, at the other end of town some houses date back to the late 1600's.

    Bob

    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,177
    Flexy floors are interesting... the ones in the centre section of the place i care for are boards -- hard pine -- about an inch to an inch and a half thick and anywhere from 12 inches to 18 inches wide. The joists are about 24 inch on centre, more or less, and are adzed smooth on the top, but left round the rest of the way. The floor boards don't always touch the joists... dismays first timers! On the other hand it is gratifying to have the furniture bow to one as one goes by!

    Codes? Seems to me that it is remarkably difficult to write codes (or for that matter, laws in general!) which are adequately protective, but not overly intrusive. It would be nice if one could simply mandate common sense, but that really doesn't work -- common sense is astonishingly uncommon!
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722
    With respect to codes and why they are violated so often by...well almost anyone. Think about how many boilers are posted on here that the installer not only didn't read the entire manual, but couldn't be bothered to look at a picture on ONE page of that manual. Now, how many pages are in a code book? I am by no means defending violators, but speaking to the shear laziness of many people. Do it right or don't do it at all is my opinion.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    icesailor
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    As a man, I am responsible for the safety of my family. I am further responsible for the community in which I live. We live in a time when the role of a man, has all but fallen by the wayside. I don't need or want legislation to tell me how to be a man. I think this is what some of us are struggling with.
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    people who do what is right due to their own moral compass are not who is targeted by new laws or regulations. They often are the few who end up following them though. If a law was passed that said you needed to meet or exceed the manufacturer's installation manual for piping the boiler would you oppose that?
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
    icesailorjonny88
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    edited April 2015
    As to people surviving before we had running water or indoor plumbing, how often was that simply luck or statistics? Not everyone got the Bubonic Plague or Spanish Flu. Enough did to get people attention and get peoples to change the status quo.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    edited April 2015

    As to people surviving before we had running water or indoor plumbing, how often was that simply luck or statistics? Not everyone got the Bubonic Plague or Spanish Flu. Enough did to get people attention and get peoples to change the status quo.

    Average age of death was 38.
    I'm glad things have improved in that regard. So are you. ;)

    However, I think that's greatly due to modern dental care as well as antibiotics.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    I don't think that laws could be passed that would protect people from every possible situation, period. What next.....someone is killed when the picture falls off the wall, they hung over their headboard, so you pass a law? I don't know the answer, but I believe we need to limit the role of government, not further expand it.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    Charlie ,

    NJ allows a homeowner of a single family home to perform any work they wish to tackle themselves . Then it gets inspected .
    All boiler permits REQUIRE a Manual J or equivalent heat loss be performed . Then inspectors come and tell me my boiler is not large enough for the 180' of installed baseboard in the 1,200 sf home .
    If the chimney is to remain in use a certification is required .
    If you want a high efficiency boiler you must change the water heater also or use an indirect . No orphaned chimneys .
    If you get caught here , doing work w/o a permit our board will fine you usually a minimum of 5 figures .
    We for the most part challenge our inspectors when they are mistaken and have a tool which allows this so checks and balances are kept intact . I am quite convinced by the way that this is the only way inspectors actually learn a friggin thing . Yes , I do this often .
    Maybe plumbers and inspectors should know why the code is the code from an application standpoint as opposed to " That's what's in the book ".
    Maybe plumbers everywhere should regularly exceed code instead of performing the worst job they can whilst remaining compliant .
    Some of us actually turn in unpermitted jobs and unlicensed contractors for the safety of our community .
    For the most part the NG explosions in New Jersey as of late were caused by the very utilities who lobbied for most of these laws .
    Maybe the powers that be in Mass could realize that they have constituents outside of Boston , and other large cities whom are quite capable of performing some of these tasks yet don't really have the funds to hire some self righteous licensed plumber who , if left to his own means probably could not sell an electric blanket to an eskimo in January . Good thing he has the state selling his services .
    Maybe the State of Mass and their utilities could allow locally manufactured stuff for their programs and more folks from Mass would have jobs .

    I got an idea for you . Take a trip to Concord , go sit down on the North Bridge and reflect on what happened there and the sacrifices made by true patriots and why those sacrifices were made by them . You should be ashamed of yourself .
    Any recommendations on how hot I can make my coffee ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    Wow maybe your coffee is a bit too caffeinated, I would say I can sell my service where ever I like If you want to make this personal Rich. If I said I was going to NJ tomorrow I would have a job for Saturday morning. I have seen jobs by imported contractors with big shops who seem to not understand physics. Funny thing is when I apply even minimum standards from this liberal utopia they exceed the local codes in just about any area I have ever had to go to. If I want a ticket to work where ever there is, aside from NYC, it is a matter of signing a check and taking a test I could have pasted after my first year in the trade. ASHAMED? What do I have to be ashamed of? I do my job excellently, I know my trade, I have my name on my bill heading, truck and every way I can be found. I even have my cell phone number right for anyone to call, why would I be ashamed of having laws that protect my fellow citizens from death? Why would I be ashamed of requiring real world and code training to do a job well? I am proud to be in Massachusetts, more because of our building codes then our history 239 years ago. What we did then is start a nation, what we have now grows a nation in health and safety.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
    icesailor
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    edited April 2015
    I also pay to advertise here and to support the wall. Not because I am against home owners fixing their own home but because I want them to have a safe sane place to gain answers if they are willing to look for them.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
    icesailor
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    ChrisJ said:

    Since we're all complaining,

    Average age of death was 38.
    I'm glad things have improved in that regard. So are you. ;)

    However, I think that's greatly due to modern dental care as well as antibiotics.

    That has more to do with safe drinking water, not contaminated by water from unknown sources.

    25% of the entire population of Europe died from Bubonic Plague, carried by fleas on rats. Some "Leaders" proclaimed Cats were doing the work of witches. So, they exterminated cats. Who killed rats.

    The people who crossed the Prairies to settle the West, especially the ones going to California in 1848-50, died from Cholera. Not Indians. Who stole their cattle to eat. They only took what they needed. The "Pilgrims" filled their water barrels and bathed on polluted water that other sick pilgrims had bathed. Then, they shared their clothes. They also got sick from eating badly preserved pork that they bought months before in St. Louis.

    Some people are clueless about the role of society/government and the affect on human health. Life is like a house of cards. If you try to pull just one card out, the whole house might come crashing down.

  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    I don't know when this turned that you thought it became personal . If that is really the case I apologize . Fact is that we probably exceed standards on a daily basis . That is exactly my point also , codes are the bare minimum and in some areas should probably go farther . I wish inspectors had the tools to fail jobs that look like **** , but they don't .
    our codes allow forced air heating systems that in certain places where it does more to spread bacteria and virus then it does to prohibit or lessen it . You don't really think that is about health and safety , do you ? No , that is strictly about money and political favor . Don't get sucked into the whole , it's for your own good " , spiel . You are not a stupid man and I am sure you know what is good for you and yours .
    Let politicians be politicians and speak your peace and have your voice heard . That is what this Nation was always supposed to be about .
    The whole idea that this country was founded upon has been perverted and folks who buy into it just allow it to become worse and worse . Aside from truly needed codes and standards , to force an individual to hire someone to perform work in his single family home is fundamentally wrong . this whole , watch what you say and watch what you do idea is garbage .

    Funny thing about republics is that when the people give the government too much rope they inevitably hang the citizens . Hitler was voted into office my friend , remember how well he and his treated Germany's citizens . Here is the best definition of political correctness I could find , quite accurate also .

    For many years, almost all of the things I wanted to write or say, have been stymied by a recently coined term referred to as "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS"! Although I consider myself rather fluent in the English language, that term was not in my vocabulary. My curiosity got the best of me and I decided to do a little research and after two weeks of chasing fruitless leads, I found what I'd been looking for at the Truman Library and Museum in Independence Missouri. A unnamed source there sent me copies of four telegrams that were between Harry Truman and Douglas MacArthur on the day before the actual signing of the Surrender Agreement. The contents of those four telegrams below are exactly as received, not a word has been added or deleted!

    (1) Tokyo,Japan
    0800-September 1,1945
    To: President Harry S Truman
    From: General D A MacArthur

    Tomorrow we meet with those yellow bellied **** and sign the Surrender Documents, any last minute instructions!

    (2) Washington, D C
    1300-September 1, 1945
    To: D A MacArthur
    From: H S Truman

    Congratulations, job well done, but you must tone down your obvious dislike of the Japanese when discussing the terms of the surrender with the press, because some of your remarks are fundamentally not politically correct!

    (3) Tokyo, Japan
    1630-September 1, 1945
    To: H S Truman
    From: D A MacArthur and C H Nimitz

    Wilco Sir, but both Chester and I are somewhat confused, exactly what does the term politically correct mean?

    (4) Washington, D C
    2120-September 1, 1945
    To: D A MacArthur/C H Nimitz
    From: H S Truman

    Political Correctness is a doctrine, recently fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and promoted by a sick mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of **** by the clean end!

    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    LOL........That's Perfect!
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Not that it has to do much with heating…That was the greatest generation,i hope and pray there is another generation, soon coming…America is Beautiful….
    Rich_49
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    j a said:

    Not that it has to do much with heating…That was the greatest generation,i hope and pray there is another generation, soon coming…America is Beautiful….

    Which part?
    The few states and or cities that won't let a homeowner work on his own home or the for profit medical system that bankrupts people? Or perhaps the huge corporations that make all of the decisions?


    There's plenty ugly about this country as well.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Another great one was my meaning
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    By the way Charlie . I never said you should be ashamed of your work or business .

    ja . Yes they were . America is Beautiful but fading much too rapidly . some don't even realize it .

    Another old quote if I may .

    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/tacitus169570.html

    This is all not new in this world , funny how when told what to watch and believe we forget was has happened before .

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tacitus
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    Rich you addressed me and said "you should be ashamed " after addressing your post to me.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    Charlie ,
    Maybe Massachusetts should pay closer attention to reading comprehension in school . If in fact you attended Mass schools . The fact that you gleaned that my comment was in any way an attack on your craft or the fact that you may be an artisan is utterly amazing . No , my friend my statement was that you should be ashamed that you would write something just like this thinking it is OK .
    Charlie said
    " I am proud to be in Massachusetts, more because of our building codes then our history 239 years ago. What we did then is start a nation, what we have now grows a nation in health and safety. "
    I always say exactly what I mean , the fact that you cannot seee the forest through the trees is not my concern .

    Really Charlie ? The comment was about that you find it acceptable for the American citizenry to be bullied , that you live in a Commonwealth and throw the term around when in fact you live in something far different than what the framers intended . Thus Franklin's quote to Mrs . Powell . The fact that you are probably one whom , if I were to ask what form of government were supposed to have , would say , " A Democracy "

    That's what you should be ashamed of ! Keep up the nice work though in "Protecting the health of the Nation" .
    Once again , If you took what I said out of context , I apologise .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,177
    Good heavens. Calm down everyone!

    I think what we are really talking about here is responsibility. Or sometimes a lack of it. I think if you worked with or for or had them work for you almost any of the regular professionals on here -- Charles, Jay, Frank, Gerry, Gordo, J A... sorry if I've left someone out! -- you would find one key central thought: they take pride in and responsibility for their work. Period. They want it to work right, and if it doesn't (which I can't imagine happening for any of those folks!) they will be right there, right now to make it right.

    If everyone -- whatever craft, whatever profession -- took that attitude, then most of the regs and inspections and codes laws and what all just wouldn't be necessary. Sadly, there are enough other folks -- who will never read this, since they aren't on the wall! -- who will do something as cheaply as they can get away with, and when something does go amiss go looking for someone else to blame.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    j a_2jonny88Zman
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    Wow, guys. If we can't fix the world, how about we just make sure we fix that boiler or furnace or plumbing one at a time? Then, if we have some spare time (which we obviously have :) )
    let's work on the world, our country first.
    j a_2vaporvac
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Fred, Jamie, You guys are right on….So next topic?