Since I am good at starting heated discussions

Charlie from wmass

What can be done to balance public safety and personal freedom when it comes to mechanical systems?

Paul48

To start with......Shouldn't it be the responsibility of the utility company(water co.) to protect the public water supply that we pay for? Shouldn't backflow prevention be incorporated into all residential water meters? Shouldn't that have happened years ago?

Charlie from wmass

Illness transmitted between members of the building after the meters can be just as bad.

Charlie from wmass

Backflow at the meters requires expansion tanks for water heaters. Who pas for and installs them?

Paul48

The same person that pays for them when you install a PRV. I honestly don't know how that fact could be debated.

Charlie from wmass

If there is a change to a system by mandated by the government they can be required to foot the bill. Example town upgrades water main now we have 120 psi house needs pressure reducer. Town is expected to provide it in the general public opinion.

Paul48

The debate I was referring to, was whether the water co. should have backflow prevention at the meters. As for the pressure issue......more often, nothing is said and folks start having issues with their T&P valves dribbling. When they check the pressure, they reallize they have to pay for a PRV and thermal expansion tank.

JStar

I'm pro-freedom when you're only hurting yourself; pro-safety when multiple lives are affected. Safety/security and personal liberty will always be inversely proportional. If somebody sees safety as inconvienent, then I honestly don't feel comfortable giving that person a whole lot of freedom.

I believe in government and public programs that protect people's well-being. If I pay a little extra in taxes or fees to know that my neighborhood is safer, I'm okay with that. I don't want the house next to me blowing up and catching my house on fire because the homeowner wants the freedom to run a garden hose carrying natural gas to his BBQ ten feet away from my kid's bedroom window. I also don't want somebody's legionella-ridden water backing into my drinking water system.

But where do we draw the line, and who pays for what? That's an interesting dicsussion. New construction is easy. The codes are in place and the work can be inspected before anyone moves into the house or building. What do we do for older buildings with outdated mechanical systems? More frequent inspections? Programs to help pay for code violations (roll the cost into your utility bill)? For me, if you own the building, you should be responsible for the financial repsonsibility of repairing code violations for any work after the meters. The utility companies can also do their part to make the public systems safer - to cater to the lowest common denominator of safety-offenders.

If the utilities are performing town or state mandated work, then they need to be responsible for all of the bi-products and outcomes of that work, including PRV's and expansion tanks. You can't cause a problem, and then not remedy it.

The only thing I'm sure about is that we should be having this conversation. We should be prioritzing safety. Freedom isn't worth a whole lot if you're dead.

jonny88

Charlie are you Scottish

Charlie from wmass

First generation born in the USA

ChrisJ

Since I suspect I'm at least partially responsible for this thread being created I'll chime in.

I believe safety is important, very important.
This is why I keep people out of my home and do my own work. When I do it my self, I know it's done right. It's that simple.


Besides all of the stuff that went on when we first bought our house, there were all of the previous things. Someone lined the chimney by stuffing multiple sections of a 6" liner inside a 4x7 chimney where it didn't fit. There were gaps in the liner, which because it was jammed inside the chimney, made it deadly. Then, a licensed company installed a brand new Burnham V83 and connected it to that chimney and said it was fine! Multiple so called professionals and not one of them did their job right.

FYI, the previous owner of my house died from lung cancer. Was it from breathing diesel fumes for many years? Who knows?

Just because you're licensed doesn't mean you do good work.

The HVAC guy my boss uses, silversolders without flowing nitrogen and when asked about it told me no one flows nitrogen when soldering, only for pressure testing! Yet another "professional" I wouldn't want working on my stuff.

Jstar is one of few I'd trust to work on my stuff but that's only because I know he does excellent work. If I didn't know his work I'd have no idea if he was good or not.

There are some really good guys out there but there are a whole lot more hacks and guys that just don't care. If we had more guys like Joe, Gerry Gill, Steamhead, Gordo, Dave Brunnell just to name a few, we'd have a lot less problems! Sorry if I didn't mention any hot water guys, but I don't really know that stuff much.

How many times is Steamhead on here fighting with people to change requirements because he thinks it will make people safer? Most guys disagree with him because it will make their job more difficult.

I don't know what the answer is. People do dangerous things all the time that scare me, like put 30A fuses on 12AWG circuits because they want to watch tv and run a heater at the same time. I don't think you're going to stop it and I think like others have said, making it so people can't pull permits and do their own work only makes them hide it more and still do what they want.

People can make fun of inspectors all they want and sure they pass a lot of steamers that are piped wrong, but I have a feeling when it comes to gas piping, electrical issues and safety they're usually pretty good. But you guys would know about that more than me.

KC_Jones

And of course what about areas that don't require permits? When I replaced my boiler I researched permitting in my area and called my local AHJ and this is pretty much how it went.
AHJ: Do you have a boiler now?
Me: Yes.
AHJ: What size is this boiler?
Me: 125k BTU gross
AHJ: Since this is a direct replacement and under X Btu's you are
not required to get a permit.
Me: Just to be clear I can replace this boiler and do not need any
permits or an inspection of any kind?
AHJ: That is correct.
So in my situation the only person protecting me from a bad contractor is me. This goes beyond bad boiler piping these guys can come in and hook up gas piping whatever it takes to get the job done and no one is watching them. Different situation, but my neighbor had some rot on his porch and rebuilt it. Same situation he is replacing what is already there no permit required. He jacked up the porch and did major structural work to the front of his house and no permits (and did it wrong). A contractor could do anything he wanted and no one would know. I respect people that do good work no matter what. But to be constantly told permits and license are protecting me is (in my area) the biggest load of BS I have ever heard. If you want to say "where I am from" you are protected that's fine, but to blanket statement that it's like that everywhere just isn't true. How about this little tidbit in PA they didn't have state building codes until 2003. So before that every town did whatever they wanted....and it shows. I have personally done remodel work and had an inspector come in and flat out tell me "I don't know nor do I care about electrical". It's like the wild west where I live....and I live in town .1 acre houses 3' apart...I am not out in the middle of nowhere. Just to be clear I think a majority of the contractors on this site are great, but you are a very small subset of what is out there. I have respect for anyone doing truly good quality work (especially when no one is looking), the rest can pucker up.

jumper

Codes for backflow prevention require annual inspection.Contaminated water is rare in US. Municipal regulations devolve into a revenue source for featherbedding.I saw a roofing crew sent home because inspector stopped job. Roofer had a permit to replace roof but in that town he was supposed to pay for a separate insulation permit. I wanted to file criminal charges. But against whom?
You meet helpful inspectors,ignorant inspectors,and SOBs.

RobG

My biggest worry is having someone come in (homeowner or contractor) and mess with something that already has my name attached to it. If a thermocouple needed replaced on a boiler I installed and the house blows up because someone tried to repair it on the cheap do you think they're going to admit that they did it? I think not!

Jamie Hall

Charles isn't the only Scot on this forum! Although he's a much more recent transplant (most of the Scots in my background were exported by the English because they were making too much trouble in the auld country...)

But he does bring up a very serious problem -- to which I have no good answers. But a few thoughts. One of which is that perhaps there are too many, or too detailed, regulations -- and nowhere near enough skilled craftsmen and skilled inspectors.

I'm not really sure what to do about the skilled craftsmen problem... make the crafts more attractive to young folks in high school would help a lot, and the whole educational establishment is at fault there. Improve apprenticeships... and make sure that the craft licensing really reflects the necessary skills and abilities, rather than -- as it sometimes is -- simply a restrictive guild system.

The skilled inspectors... a real problem. For one thing, the codes now are so restrictive that there isn't much room for skill. I was a building inspector for a while -- four decades ago, and in what was then a very rural state (it's been over run by flatlanders since) -- and at that time we did have codes -- National Plumbing and Electrical -- but we also had a lot of latitude, and the basic idea was that if we could see it would work -- or you could convince us it would, and we were always willing to learn -- we'd pass it (we weren't pushovers, though!). But we were supposed to know what we were doing. Now... I talked with our local building inspector recently and his hands are pretty well tied. There is a code requirement for darn near everything, and it's as much as his job is worth to even think about doing something differently, whether it works or not. Our local Fire Marshall is in the same boat. But, so long as no one is willing to take responsibility... perhaps that's the underlying problem?

Then of course there's Joe Homeowner, who may or may not have a clue but has searched the 'net and the big box (can't talk to the plumbing supply folks for help -- they won't talk to a homeowner; ask me how I know) and gives it a shot. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. But -- and here I sympathize -- he doesn't want to call in a pro at something fierce per hour to fix a faucet in the kitchen (and may not have the knowledge or imagination to figure out what he can or cannot do safely), never mind call in the building inspector to look at it -- since the odds of the building inspector NOT finding a problem either with what he did or something else are close to zero, and he doesn't need that. Also, the BI will let the tax assessors know, and there go your property taxes -- and he doesn't need that either.

So... I dunno.

My two shillings worth.

Jean-David Beyer

There is a way to get things up to code without even changing the law. The homeowner's insurance company could do it. To renew your insurance, life safety items get checked by the insurance company. And if flaws are found, the homeowner gets to pay for it or the policy does not get renewed (or maybe gets a large premium increase to compensate the company for the additional risk). The insurance company benefits (less liability if the house does not burn down or explode or run contaminated water into the municipal water supply), the family benefits from not dying of CO, the neighbors benefit because the house does not explode... And even the politicians are off the hook.

Jamie Hall

Jean-David Beyer said:

There is a way to get things up to code without even changing the law. The homeowner's insurance company could do it. To renew your insurance, life safety items get checked by the insurance company. And if flaws are found, the homeowner gets to pay for it or the policy does not get renewed (or maybe gets a large premium increase to compensate the company for the additional risk). The insurance company benefits (less liability if the house does not burn down or explode or run contaminated water into the municipal water supply), the family benefits from not dying of CO, the neighbors benefit because the house does not explode... And even the politicians are off the hook.

Well, Jean, it would be nice if it worked that way. Unfortunately, sometimes the cost of bringing something which is perfectly safe (and accords with the code in effect when the work was done) is extraordinarily high -- quite possibly more than the structure is worth.

Sometimes the work is simply not possible without destroying a significant aspect of the structure.

Both of these are very serious problems when working with -- as I do -- historic preservation.

The end result is one of three outcomes: the structure is torn down (very common). The owner pays a truly exorbitant -- dare I say extortionate? insurance bill if he can find insurance at all. Or the owner goes without insurance.

so... what actually happens in the case of an historic private property? No work is done at all, or if it is, it is done in the middle of the night.

I might add that since code compliance isn't possible due to the lack of flexibility, many historic places which would be worth visiting or could be museums of one sort or another are strictly off limits to the general public.

Wouldn't it be nice if the enforcers -- the authorities having jurisdiction, or the bean counters at the insurance companies as the case may be, were allowed a little flexibility?

Fred

What is there to say? There are places in this country where indoor plumbing, electric and anything other than wood/coal burning stoves are a rarity. I think the"New" fashionable term for it is "Living off the grid". Public health and safety are foreign to those who live that life style.
Speaking of which, a real world experience here in my neighborhood yesterday. A neighbor 3 streets over hired a roofer to do a tear-off and replace the roof on a house in the Historic District. At about 10:00AM, I heard a loud Humm which turned into an explosion that threw one of three roofers off the roof of that house just before the house exploded. The three people inside were able to get out unharmed but the one roofer and subsequently three firemen were taken to the hospital. House was destroyed. We (all the surrounding neighborhood was with out power from 10:00AM until 5:00PM. As it turns out, whoever installed the power supply from the utility pole to the house, cut a hole in the gutter and ran it through the aluminum gutter, into the house and down to the electric meter in the basement. Over the years the gutter cut through the power cable and with the added activity of the roof tear-off, the house was destroyed. I haven't found out yet if the line was a DIY or a Proffessional job but I do know that in this city, the power company will not connect to their service without a full, on-site inspection, done by the City Housing Inspector. Don't know who will be held accountable for this mess but I'm betting the insurance company will hold back on any settlements.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

What is there to say? There are places in this country where indoor plumbing, electric and anything other than wood/coal burning stoves are a rarity. I think the"New" fashionable term for it is "Living off the grid". Public health and safety are foreign to those who live that life style.
Speaking of which, a real world experience here in my neighborhood yesterday. A neighbor 3 streets over hired a roofer to do a tear-off and replace the roof on a house in the Historic District. At about 10:00AM, I heard a loud Humm which turned into an explosion that threw one of three roofers off the roof of that house just before the house exploded. The three people inside were able to get out unharmed but the one roofer and subsequently three firemen were taken to the hospital. House was destroyed. We (all the surrounding neighborhood was with out power from 10:00AM until 5:00PM. As it turns out, whoever installed the power supply from the utility pole to the house, cut a hole in the gutter and ran it through the aluminum gutter, into the house and down to the electric meter in the basement. Over the years the gutter cut through the power cable and with the added activity of the roof tear-off, the house was destroyed. I haven't found out yet if the line was a DIY or a Proffessional job but I do know that in this city, the power company will not connect to their service without a full, on-site inspection, done by the City Housing Inspector. Don't know who will be held accountable for this mess but I'm betting the insurance company will hold back on any settlements.

If that was DIY it's the first time I've ever heard of DIY running a service line to a house from a pole. I highly, highly doubt it.

Fred

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

If that was DIY it's the first time I've ever heard of DIY running a service line to a house from a pole. I highly, highly doubt it.

You also cannot "blow up" a house if the service line goes to ground. You might "blow up" a transformer or start a fire in the house but there is nothing to cause an explosion even if the service line grounds to the gutter.

The story sounds inaccurate and incomplete.

Here in our city, A licensed contractor must run the service line up to the gable or top of the exterior wall and have the city inspector approve the installation before the Utility will run the line from the pole to that connection. I don't know which end of that cable ran through the gutter but is should have been an issue for the city inspector or for the utility. I can't imagine neither seeing that.
As it relates to the explosion, I know the electric, by itself won't cause an explosion and I have to assume they also had some kind of Natural gas leak because it did explode. @Hattersguy , if you'd like to come to Dayton, Ohio, you and I can walk the neighborhood and pick up the remnants of that house. The article is in today's Dayton Daily News which you should be able to get to on the internet.
EDIT: I wouldn't have expected the entire neighborhood to be without power either but, trust me we were. The explosion may have been at the transformer but that wouldn't explain the roofer being blown off the roof. A single house should have not affected several blocks, aa high school (Longfellow) and a Nursing Home (Grafton Manor). Antique houses, especially those with tube and knob ( I don't know what was in this particular house) may not have any ground in it at all.

Charlie from wmass

Only fire I found was in Beavercreek. Guy lit up the house then shot himself. Is that the fire?

Fred

Charlie from wmass said:

Only fire I found was in Beavercreek. Guy lit up the house then shot himself. Is that the fire?

Here is a link to a brief summary by WDTN (Channel 2 News):
http://wdtn.com/2015/04/15/fire-on-grafton-ave-in-dayton-causes-power-outage/

Jamie Hall

Unlikely that the electrical idiocy would have caused a full scale explosion -- unless there were a source of fuel somewhere involved. Such as leaking natural gas. It might have blown up a transformer and shut off power -- but the report references electrical wires arcing on the ground, which suggests otherwise.

And I am quite sure that we all can cite examples of really dim bulb mechanical work which was anywhere from just kind of unsafe to "why on earth didn't this cause a catastrophe sooner?". I certainly can.

But that really doesn't address Charles' initial question, which is a very valid and serious one, and deserving of a good deal of thought.

Fred

Here is the link to the Dayton Daily News article:
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/suspected-electrical-fire-sparks-blaze-in-dayton-h/nkt52/

ChrisJ

The wire coming from the pole to my house is connected to a ceramic insulator mounted to the house. First time I ever saw that but I assume it was common years ago.

I'm really happy my entire panel and all of the K&T was replaced in 87. The fact it happened because of a fire in the livingroom stinks, but it is nice to have a nice QO panel and all modern romex. The service entrance cable was also replaced so that's nice and shiny too. Well, 1987 shiny which is a lot more shiny than one from 1920.

Fred

ChrisJ said:

The wire coming from the pole to my house is connected to a ceramic insulator mounted to the house. First time I ever saw that but I assume it was common years ago.

I'm really happy my entire panel and all of the K&T was replaced in 87. The fact it happened because of a fire in the livingroom stinks, but it is nice to have a nice QO panel and all modern romex. The service entrance cable was also replaced so that's nice and shiny too. Well, 1987 shiny which is a lot more shiny than one from 1920.

That's still the way they do it here. The utility company strings a bare cable from the pole to that insulator and then they wrap the electrical wires around that bare cable (which acts as support in the wind and I assume is somehow grounded at the pole. Here we are required to run and secure the service entrance cable up to where the insulator will be mounted and leave a couple feet of wire hanging where the utility will use weaterproof connectors to connect to those tails, once the inspector approves the service installation.

Charlie from wmass

How do we make it better as a nation or nations?

jonny88

Oh Flower of Scotland ,When will we see,like again, who stood and died for ,your wee bit hill and glen and stood against them ............... youtube Scotland vs England 1990 check it out Charlie and Jamie.Hasting brothers are legends.Sorry to go off track

ChrisJ

Fred said:

ChrisJ said:

The wire coming from the pole to my house is connected to a ceramic insulator mounted to the house. First time I ever saw that but I assume it was common years ago.

I'm really happy my entire panel and all of the K&T was replaced in 87. The fact it happened because of a fire in the livingroom stinks, but it is nice to have a nice QO panel and all modern romex. The service entrance cable was also replaced so that's nice and shiny too. Well, 1987 shiny which is a lot more shiny than one from 1920.

That's still the way they do it here. The utility company strings a bare cable from the pole to that insulator and then they wrap the electrical wires around that bare cable (which acts as support in the wind and I assume is somehow grounded at the pole. Here we are required to run and secure the service entrance cable up to where the insulator will be mounted and leave a couple feet of wire hanging where the utility will use weaterproof connectors to connect to those tails, once the inspector approves the service installation.

I never noticed an insulator on anything newer unless I just wasn't paying attention. But my understanding was the support cable / neutral was just anchored to a hook or anchor on the side of the building, no insulator.

For example, although, this is a really ugly one.

http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Electrical_Service590-DFs.jpg

Fred

Personally, I think we need some practical national standards that everyone can understand and afford to implement, both for new construction but primarily for renovations/rehabs and those standards can't be loaded with "Nice to Have's". They have to be focused on creating a safe environment, be it at home or in a commercial/industrial setting.
No political crap or pork belly add-ons. Plain and simple ordinances that apply across the country.
Then we need to hold the Professional contractors and the DIY'ers accountable for any work they do, which means some consequence when the work does not meet those standards and/or the manufacturer's installation guidelines.
Inspectors also need to be held accountable for any work they approve, both as it relates to code and as it relates to manufacturer's functional guidelines. They also need to be held accountable for any jobs they refuse to approve for no reason than just "Covering their asses".
All houses marketed after a certain date should be required to pass some basic Heating, cooling, electrical, plumbing, construction inspection. Some structures may be grandfathered into prior, local standards/code except 1) the prior standard/code is deemed safe and functional and 2) any improvements done by the then current owner must meet the new Standards before a property sale can occur.
Meeting those basic mechnical requirements are not optional. They are mandatory.
JMHO
EDIT: Add to that full and complete disclosure to any potential buyer of the inspection report, based on the above, and, if the buyer wants to move forward with the sale, a binding agreement with them to make the corrections in a 30 to 90 day period after closing. Penalties apply, maybe substantially increased property taxes (that go directly into supporting the inspection process) for failure to complete the work by the agreed upon deadline.

Charlie from wmass

So what we're doing in Massachusetts already? With diy provisions.

Fred

Hatterasguy said:

Fred said:

Here is the link to the Dayton Daily News article:
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/suspected-electrical-fire-sparks-blaze-in-dayton-h/nkt52/

Fred,

Look up the definition of "double hearsay".

No other industry is in a greater "race to the bottom" than the media. We may think this (the hydronic) industry has its issues. They pale in comparison to most any news outlet. These people deliberately manipulate the news to satisfy their own desire to add hyperbole at every opportunity.

I happen to be one in the neighborhood that had no power from 10:00AM until about 4:30PM. I'm 3 streets away. I heard a huge (what I thought to be) HUMM before my power went out but I had a TV and a stereo on. I know for a fact the school on the corner from me was without power as they were having a special program which was interupted.
I don't believe the media on a lot of things but I happen to be near the scene on this one. There's no roof on that house today. Whatever the cause, it's not hearsay that something very dangerous happened there.

Charlie from wmass

Boys play nice! Can we get back on track.

Fred

Charlie from wmass said:

So what we're doing in Massachusetts already? With diy provisions.

No, not what you're doing in Massachusetts because that isn't working. We see so many botched up boiler installs from Mass. that there can't be anyone actually inspecting or knowledgable about what a proper install should be. If that's the case with boilers, I suspect the same holds true across the board for electrical, plumbing, whatever. I'm not even sure the code is the same for mechnicals across all of Mass.
The goal is to fix the problem, that means putting the pride of Ownership" as it relates to what Mass. or any other state does aside and start to think about fixing things from the need for a service through to a complete certify-able mechnical system.

Rich_49

Here's some of your professionals at work gents . Not homeowners ,

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEViQxjDBV8jIAf.8nnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0b2ZrZmU3BHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwMl8x?p=Stafford+township+house+explosion&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-004

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison,_New_Jersey_natural_gas_explosion

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEVjV6jzBVFp4AMFknnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0b2ZrZmU3BHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwMl8x?p=New+York+City+Gas+explosion&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-004

http://www.nj.com/ocean/index.ssf/2015/03/seaside_heights_explosion_related_to_natural_gas_l.html

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEVjbQjDBVbPcAxv4nnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0b2ZrZmU3BHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwMl8x?p=Seaside+Park+boardwalk+fire&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-004

http://abcnews.go.com/US/massive-fire-destroys-million-mansion-connecticut/story?id=24433241

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/22/nyregion/hundreds-in-new-jersey-flee-fire-at-apartment-complex.html?_r=0

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/new-jersey-gas-explosion-one-dead-and-10-homes-destroyed-after-line-cut

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/new-jersey-gas-leak-explosion-levels-house-week-article-1.2135064


Aren't licensed and trained guys awesome ? The list is endless , every state , every AHJ , every contractor . All these things were done by professionals

Charlie from wmass

This is a slanted study here. Most people never need to come here for help . I am sure if you saw most of the work being done for the trades and how the inspectors operate you would be happy, aside from the no DIY. You can do your own carpentry and heating. You need a license for electric, plumbing, gas fitting, and refrigeration Gases.

Charlie from wmass

The issue is we have no license for hot water or steam heat below 750k, maybe 500k. This means anyone can do it so anyone does do it.

ChrisJ

Charlie do you have your refrigeration licence ?

Bob Bona_4

I would put good money towards the power line being in place and the gutters were replaced at some point, and the gutter installer notched the sharp gutter around that pesky conduit. I say this thinking of the trade hierarchy.

And i also agree that trade licensure is no guarantee of good workmanship, that is a matter of pride and the ambition to exceed accepted standards. Inspectors are not there to critique work except insure things are done to code, which is the minimum.

Charlie from wmass

@chrisj no I don't And I don't do AC work.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

@chrisj no I don't And I don't do AC work.

Oh,
I do.
It comes in handy from time to time.