Since I am good at starting heated discussions

jonny88

I see a definite conflict on both sides.kay Charlie your licensed correct in p&h correct.Perfect answer to Chrisj by the way.Chrisj its great you are licensed in a/c so now you will have an understanding where I come from.Seven years on the books working under a Lic Master Plumber in NYC .Moved to Long Island and took test.Seven years mandatory before you can take test.Now I go to school to brush up on codes etc.Books are not free.We are required to do a lead wipe.Lead is not cheap nor brass ferrules.Copper project,copper not cheap,see where I am going.Now take my exams 3 in total.
Some homeowners here say they can pass the test,great I am sure if I study enough I can pass a Dr test if I was book smart.Field experience is where you learn your trade.I dont believe you should be entitled to take a test unless you have put your time into the trade.Many here are book smart and can design great systems,let me see you put your drawing into effect.I work with a handful of designers who are extremely book smart.They give me the drawing and I install.We work together.
Why do I pay Lic fees insurances,comp the list goes on when any **** can go in and undercut me.Actually from now on I am going to call in work being done without a permit.
Pex on plumbing was the breaking point for me as I have only seen a handful of plumbers install it to manufacturers specs.PVC I dont like as Johnny homeowner or Jerry contractor can glue pipe,last job contractor but vent stack through side of house.Its ok he didnt get a permit and can glue pipe.
Keep your propress it takes skill to solder correctly and dont get me started on megapress.I did a job for a Viega showroom and all the reps there are telling everyone who easy it is to use their tools and install their systems.They even let laymen press fittings bingo now you got a gas installer.Sorry for the rant,but you gotta realize its a job for me and my living not a hobby.
Oh Flower of scotland,see Charlie what you started,

ChrisJ

@jonny88

Still doesn't change my stand on homeowners being able to do work to their own home.

Same goes for their cars.


You pay your licensing fees and did all of the learning so you could sell your services to those who need them. Not so the government could force people to hire you whether they want to or not.

Fred

Hatterasguy said:

I don't think that anyone doubts the fact that the transformer shorted and the neighborhood lost power. Perfectly reasonable outcome.

But, for the media to suggest that someone was almost "blown off the roof" using double hearsay is the epitome of the race to the bottom in the media.

The sad part is that people actually believe them.

If there is no roof on the house, why didn't the media do a proper investigation and determine why that occurred? I'll tell you why:

Investigation of the true facts of the situation is difficult.

Reporting hearsay is easy.

Which would you do if there was an economic benefit to the latter approach?

The fact that you cite such poor work as factual shows they are most definitely doing the right thing.............for themselves.

@Hatterasguy , I posted that story to make a point as it relates to this thread; that doing things the wrong way can turn into a very dangerous situation. It was never my intent to make a case for or against how the story was reported, just to say it not only impacted the homeowner but also a lot of people around them. I appreciate your perspective. That's what makes the world go round.

jonny88

I guess maybe some areas are more strict than others .a?if something God forbid happened on a job gas leak,flood etc does home insurance cover of your weekend warrior did the work with no permits.i just left my supply house a few minutes ago a homeowner came in with a gas valve .counter guy asked for his account number which customer told him he didn't have as he walked in of street.Supply house would not sell him unit.He screamed at them etc but was eventually told to leave and go to Home Depot .
Take care

Jamie Hall

Flower of Scotland -- the Corries do it best! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyx1xeZo_tk

Oddly enough, I agree with both ChrisJ and Jonny88.

With regard to jonny88, if you are going to hold yourself forth to the public as a plumber, A/C man, electrician, Professional Engineer, whatever, you should have a license -- and you should have earned that license through an apprenticeship and be able to demonstrate that you can do the work right -- and that you know why it should be done that way. "Monkey see monkey do" is responsible for a lot of really bad work.

However, agreeing with ChrisJ if you are working on your own house (or car!) you should be free to do that work yourself, subject to inspection for life safety things (to be defined in some other thread, please). This is the system which is used on aircraft, incidentally -- if it's your bird, within very broad limits you can do your own work, but it must be signed off by a licensed A&E. Seems to work.

Which brings up the building inspector and fire marshal. These two folks -- the guardians of public safety after all -- should be at least as well qualified in whatever trade they are inspecting as the licensed fellow. However, in my not so humble opinion, they should a) restrict their inspection to the work to be inspected, and never, ever go looking for trouble elsewhere and b) be ready to be helpful rather than "ha ha you did it wrong". There are a few inspectors with that attitude. Most of them, in my experience, are just looking for a way to prove they can shut you down, and this doesn't advance anything except their egos -- and particularly in an existing structure, if you can't find something which isn't up to the very latest code you aren't looking hard enough. Does this mean that it should be corrected? Usually, no, it doesn't. (One might note that the same logic applies, again, to cars and airplanes -- unless you always drive a brand new car, and fly only on Boeing 787s, you are using transport which does not meet the latest codes and standards. They seem to get there, though...)

With regard to supply houses -- the attitude of many supply houses that they won't sell or be helpful to anyone who is not a member of the approved clan, with the correct handshake, does not help anyone do anything correctly. It seems to me that the public would be far better served -- take the case of your gas valve, for example -- if the counter man (who may or may not be qualified) would, if he was qualified, point out the problems and possible pitfalls with the job (and even recommend that the job is such that it should be done by a pro., and why it should, if that is actually the case), rather than simply shutting the customer down. Of course, that assumes that the counter man (or woman) is, actually, qualified to comment... and I realise that this is heresy, but I've seen and talked to better qualified folks at Home Depot than I have at some of the plumbing and heating places...

Fred

At the end of the day, I think most juristictions probably have a decent set of housing codes, Could they be easier for the layperson to understand? Yes, similar to the legal industry's attempts to do away with as much legal-eze as possible in contracts so that people can understand what is being said.
Having said that, there appears to be a huge leap from having code and assumming they are being enforced using a labor force who for the most part are trained to look at an installation with a checklist; Is there a gas/oil shut-off at the appliance? Check, Is there a power shut-off within so many feet of the appliance? Check, Is there a pressure relief valve on the boiler/water heater? Check, Is the flue pipe properly installed and fastened? Check. Does the breaker box have a Main shut-off switch? Check Are the circuits wired with the correct size/type wiring? Check. Are the circuits and the box properly grounded? Check, On and On
The more I think about this whole conundrum, the more I begin to wonder where the home owner comes into to play? I know there are those who will say"Why should the homeowner have to understand how/why something gets installed a certian way?"
Well, because they have the most at stake and a vested interest in their families, their property, their own safety. Why shouldn't they understand how things work and how they should be installed? In the case of boilers, it's a matter of taking a few minutes to look at the nice pictures the manufacturer provides in the installation manual and asking yourself, "Does my install look like that? If not, Mr. Installer, tell me why it doesn't and how you are going to fix it"
Homeowners on this sight are able to understand how things should be installed, why not others? They know something isn't right when they come here for help. In most cases, they don't have a clue what the installation manual says, let alone where it might be. Why not be a little proactive.
We need to ask ourselves what exactly is the role of an inspector? Is it to make sure the safety features/mechnisms are in proper order or are they suppose to be the contractor (Be it a Pro or a Homeowner) police? If the latter, then maybe we need to make sure our juristictions have the right skill sets on board and that they are compensated in a way that encourages enforcement. Again, JMHO.

Jamie Hall

"We need to ask ourselves what exactly is the role of an inspector? Is it to make sure the safety features/mechnisms are in proper order or are they suppose to be the contractor (Be it a Pro or a Homeowner) police? If the latter, then maybe we need to make sure our juristictions have the right skill sets on board and that they are compensated in a way that encourages enforcement." Ah Fred -- there you have hit the centre of the problem, really. Nice shot! I would vote -- firmly and enthusiastically -- that it should be the former -- is this installation safe? -- and not, repeat NOT, a branch of the police. Which still means they need to have the right skill sets and that they are properly compensated, but it also means that they -- and some others who have been mentioned -- have the attitude that they are there to help, not to punish -- and then only when absolutely necessary.

Of course, I might say the same about the police themselves...

ChrisJ

My understanding is the primary reason for codes and inspections is for insurance purposes.

Same reason you're forced to wear a seatbelt.

Fred

ChrisJ said:

My understanding is the primary reason for codes and inspections is for insurance purposes.

Same reason you're forced to wear a seatbelt.

OMG Chris, I have never, ever worn a seat belt! My right to take my life in my own hands (I also smoke Too) Makes you wonder how I have lived as long as I have doesn't it. BTW, I don't think the primary reason for codes is insurance. I think it is for the safety and well being of the general public. If it were up to the insurance companies, they would just use a different rate table that still earns them huge profits.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

ChrisJ said:

My understanding is the primary reason for codes and inspections is for insurance purposes.

Same reason you're forced to wear a seatbelt.

OMG Chris, I have never, ever worn a seat belt! My right to take my life in my own hands (I also smoke Too) Makes you wonder how I have lived as long as I have doesn't it. BTW, I don't think the primary reason for codes is insurance. I think it is for the safety and well being of the general public. If it were up to the insurance companies, they would just use a different rate table that still earns them huge profits.

I go by statistics.
I wear a seatbelt and I don't smoke. You've lived as long as you have by luck, nothing more. Doing something dangerous and continuing too even after it's proven to be dangerous just because nothing has happened *yet* is silly. Many people used Clow Gasteam unvented radiators and were perfectly fine! Same with unvented kerosene heaters. All of this is another topic though.

As far as insurance companies using a different rate table, how? They would need to send people out to inspect each and every house. With codes in place, they can assume in general, all houses meet this criteria.

Your way would be almost impossible and require constant visits to houses to see if any changes have been made.

P.S. not wearing a seatbelt in a vehicle equipped with airbags is really asking for it.

Fred

I know the seat belt issues and agree with you. I just don't. Hey who said "Don't push the envelope, eliminate it"
As for the insurance coompanies, mine actually did come by and take pictures before they sold me a policy and they do come by every 3 to 5 years to updaate their photo records. As far as using a different ratee table, trust me, if there is an opportunity to increase value for their stakeholders (investors) that's not a problem coming up with a new pricing model.

Jamie Hall

Again I find myself agreeing with Fred -- the purpose of codes (and, for that matter, all the rest of the laws...) is, or should be, to do the minimum to protect public health and safety. Note: minimum. In my opinion, nothing beyond that should be required.

As for insurance -- mine comes by every few years to make sure that things are up to snuff, and they are very reasonable about it (which is why I use them -- there are a number of other insurance companies which simply won't even touch this place! Horses, you know. Fuses in the fuse boxes (in holders so that you can only put in the correct fuse, and no other). On-site septic. And so on)(it's not all antique -- everything is grounded. There are GFCIs in all the bathrooms and the kitchen... where it's actually needed for safety, it's there).

Fred

Also, @ChrisJ keep in mind when you shop around for insurance, even if they don't come out, they ask about the type of construction, size of the house, age of the electrical, type and age of the heating system, age and type of plumbing, age and type of roof, etc. If they are willing to sell you insurance, they are using rate tables based on what you told them and, shouldyou ever have a claim, rest assurred they will draw on the accuracy of the information you provided them.

Harvey Ramer

I believe everyone should be the boss of their own house and land, at the same time, not harm or endanger those around them.
Easy enough to do, but you really can't legislate it so. To much legislation is a pain in the butt to those who wouldn't and doesn't mean s**t to those who will anyway.

jonny88

@Hatterasguy "the plumbing police didnt strike again".It is the supplies house policy to sell gas products to lic plumbers.Everyone has a choice on where to go and obviously this customer went to home depot to get whatever he needed.By the way counter guy is a retired union nyc plumber and I think has a little more knowledge than the hellp you may find in the box store.But hey go where you want,I know where I go to get my material.

Jamie Hall

jonny88 said:

@Hatterasguy "the plumbing police didnt strike again".It is the supplies house policy to sell gas products to lic plumbers.Everyone has a choice on where to go and obviously this customer went to home depot to get whatever he needed.By the way counter guy is a retired union nyc plumber and I think has a little more knowledge than the hellp you may find in the box store.But hey go where you want,I know where I go to get my material.

Bravo. I'm very glad you have a nice in with your supply store. I wish I did -- but I am not so privileged, eh? So I make do as best I can with the rest of the unwashed.

ChrisJ

Several issues I have here.

1: Never buy plumbing parts from big box stores
2: Never ask for advise for help from anyone at a big box store.

Follow those rules and you'll be far better off.

Ok, you can buy silicone and some other items from there, but forget about any threaded fittings, valves, etc.

Jamie Hall

In general I quite agree, Chris -- but at least where I am, it's either the big box or mail order (or con my friendly plumber into getting things for me -- which I don't like to do, as it is taking advantage of a friendship). As others have said, the plumbing supply stores around here have a policy to sell only to plumbers on their good boys list, and I'm not on that list. So I, and most others like me, aren't so privileged.

One of the reasons, incidentally, I like this site and keep reading and occasionally contributing is that there are a lot of folks on it who are really knowledgeable and are willing to provide advice and help. Refreshing.

Charlie from wmass

Jamie I can give you the secret handshake for plimptonandhills.

Jean-David Beyer

Well, Jean, it would be nice if it worked that way. Unfortunately, sometimes the cost of bringing something which is perfectly safe (and accords with the code in effect when the work was done) is extraordinarily high -- quite possibly more than the structure is worth.

If the thing is perfectly safe. should not the code, or the inspector, be in a position to allow it to remain? I recognize that I said "should" and "shoulds" often have little to do with codes and inspectors. I have an historic building I have some responsibility for. Almost 200 year old Quaker meetinghouse. Classified historic, so we cannot bring some things up to code even if we wanted to and could afford it. Historically, it had no heat at all. Later 3 pot-bellied coal stoves. Now two 125,000 BTU/hour forced hot air furnaces. Steam might be good, but hot water is out, since half of the meeting house is heated only one day a week no pipes in it) and the heating pipes would freeze without anti-freeze, and someone would surely forget to check that.

Sometimes the work is simply not possible without destroying a significant aspect of the structure.

True. While not a matter of safety, we had to replace or repair some windows. I wished we could have replaced them with matching thermopane type windows, but no-go. We had to clean up the rotted wood and impregnate it with a two-part epoxy mixture. We have a great contractor who specializes in historic restoration, but it cost more than new windows would have.

Both of these are very serious problems when working with -- as I do -- historic preservation.
They sure are. I wish the owner could consult with the inspector and get historic things approved, provided safety items were obeyed in spirit. I do not know if inspectors are even allowed to do such things; i.e., if they are allowed any exercise of discretion in such matters.

I was not too impressed with the inspectors where I live. A CSST gas line (that should have been black pipe, since it was a straight run, was inspected and approved even though it was in plain sight and was not bonded or grounded at all.

PVC supply and vent was purple-primed, but not glued, and that passed inspection too. My condensate pump output goes through an outside wall and dribbles on the ground. The inspector did not even check where it went.

jonny88

@Jamie Hall and @Hatterasguy .Good morning guys.The blinkers are coming of.I can now totally see your point of view.I apologize if I caused offense.I can see where your frustration comes from and Jamie you more than anyone are one of the contributors here where whom I have learnt from,so I accept I am wrong and will continue to listen to your words.
By the way Jamie that rendition of Flower of Scotland was great thanks for posting.Thanks guys.

jonny88

That's Hatterasguy I fully see and understand your point and to be honest it makes complete sense.A disclaimer covers them.Unfortunatly this supply house doesn't care as they are geared for large companies .I get hammered price wise when I go there but that for a different thread.you make a lot of sense .

ChrisJ

I haven't had issues with supply houses.
Sometimes their rude to me, but they still sell to me.

BobC

I used to use Watertown plumbing supply (in Mass) when i was setting up NAVMAT testing for the sea sparrow program. They used to let me behind the counter because of the varied requirements I had to fill. The company I was working for had an industrial account and the counter folks there were very helpful to all who walked in the door.

They were known in this area as one of the best stocked plumbing houses and for their willingness to help anyone who asked. The trade always got served first but they had no problem selling to the public. I'm sure they had a line that couldn't be crossed but i don't know where it was.

Bob

ChrisJ

Exactly.

As I've said before, take care of your regulars, I have no issues with that. I'll wait until you serve all of them, no problem.

I also suspect another reason they don't mind serving me is I know what I want. When I get to the counter I'm very specific so they just get me the parts.

When I went to buy my pipe cutter I walked in and told the guy I wanted a Ridgid 2A or whatever the closest thing he had was. He had no issue grabbing that for me.

I'd be willing to bet, homeowners coming in partially clueless is most of the problem. They don't want to deal with that and often don't have time for it.

Charlie from wmass

Gas valves are usually a sore point at my wholesalers as it is often not the valve and people want to return them after installing them and the unit is still not working. I always have seen people asking where the pilot button is as they could not light the pilot for the furnace with the torch. The gas valve was for a Weil McLain GV boiler.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

Gas valves are usually a sore point at my wholesalers as it is often not the valve and people want to return them after installing them and the unit is still not working. I always have seen people asking where the pilot button is as they could not light the pilot for the furnace with the torch. The gas valve was for a Weil McLain GV boiler.

See I hate that. If you buy a part and you're wrong, tough, it's yours.

Like I said, or meant, the supply guys don't want to deal with the general public. If you try returning something because you're wrong, you're now a pain in his rear.

Keep their life easy and be direct and they probably won't mind helping you.

I don't know what a WM GV is, but I assume it's either an oil burner or spark / hot surface gas?

RobG

In my neck of the woods most wholesalers will sell to anyone. The only difference is that contractors get a discount and homeowners pay list. What allot of people don't understand is that by the time they research the problem, buy the tools, order the parts and live with an angry wife and kids for two or three days they could have called a quality contractor who keeps the parts and tools on his truck and actually saved money and aggravation.

Have you all noticed that the ones who don't **** about the bill are the blue collar workers who go into hock to pay it. It's the doctor and lawyers who get upset about what you charge.

Rich_49

Only folks who do not have disposable cash appreciate good stuff .

Jamie Hall

A few comments... jonny88, no problem! I do understand where you are coming from -- and, I think why! And most of the Corries stuff is good listening (try Mingulay Boat song someday)! And Charles -- actually, I can do business with Plimpton Hills -- did you put in a good word for me? Thank you!

ChrisJ-- you are so right. You buy it, it's wrong, it's yours. No question. At least as much to the point -- you buy it (being a parts changer, not a craftsman) and it doesn't solve the problem -- it's still yours. I've always operated that way, but a lot of people don't.

And RobG -- oh yeah. The more income some folks have, the more they seem to be a pain.

As to the tradesman's discount -- he should get a discount from what Joe Public would pay, in my view -- after all, he's going to some trouble to get the part, and he sure can't charge the client more than list, and he's got to eat, too.

Good discussion, Charles!

j a_2

Pictured: Q85SN, Q130SN Q85SP, Q130SP
CAUTION!
Read this manual thoroughly before installing, servicing, putting into operation or using this boiler and vent system.
WARNING!
Improper installation, adjustment, alteration, service or maintenance can cause property damage, personal injury (exposure of hazardous materials)* or loss of life. Refer to the user's information manual provided with this boiler. Installation and service must be performed by a licensed professional, service agency or the gas supplier (who must read and follow the supplied instructions before installing, servicing, or removing this boiler). CAUTION!
The user manual is part of the documentation that is delivered to the installation's operator. Go through the information in this manual with the owner/operator and make sure that they are familiar with all necessary operating instructions.
NOTICE!
Installation and service must be performed by a licensed professional, service technician or the gas supplier.
In the Commonwealth of Massachusetts this boiler must be installed by a licensed Plumber or Gas Fitter.

This is a typical manual for a simple standard home heating boiler…This is the first page of the manual….That to me is a very good way to look out for the publics safety….Should the supply house knowingly sell this unit to someone unlicensed/unskilled, me I don’t think so….I know for a fact my local supply house will not….If they did I would have gone elsewhere….

ChrisJ

j a said:

Pictured: Q85SN, Q130SN Q85SP, Q130SP
CAUTION!
Read this manual thoroughly before installing, servicing, putting into operation or using this boiler and vent system.
WARNING!
Improper installation, adjustment, alteration, service or maintenance can cause property damage, personal injury (exposure of hazardous materials)* or loss of life. Refer to the user's information manual provided with this boiler. Installation and service must be performed by a licensed professional, service agency or the gas supplier (who must read and follow the supplied instructions before installing, servicing, or removing this boiler). CAUTION!
The user manual is part of the documentation that is delivered to the installation's operator. Go through the information in this manual with the owner/operator and make sure that they are familiar with all necessary operating instructions.
NOTICE!
Installation and service must be performed by a licensed professional, service technician or the gas supplier.
In the Commonwealth of Massachusetts this boiler must be installed by a licensed Plumber or Gas Fitter.

This is a typical manual for a simple standard home heating boiler…This is the first page of the manual….That to me is a very good way to look out for the publics safety….Should the supply house knowingly sell this unit to someone unlicensed/unskilled, me I don’t think so….I know for a fact my local supply house will not….If they did I would have gone elsewhere….

Such a shame we see constant evidence of "professionals" clearly not doing this, isn't it?

Steam boilers piped 100% wrong by licensed professionals. Like you said, that's the first page of the manual.

So, what's your point again j a? I think I missed it. I'm also curious why you seem to feel it is so important that people be forced into using your services?

It seems very apparent to me. Not only do you want the government to force people to hire you, you also want supply houses to do it as well.

Charlie from wmass

I am in agreement with ja this time. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE STIFFER PENALTIES FOR PROS WHO FAIL TO FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS. If you want pro only work make sure the pro is worth the money.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

I am in agreement with ja this time. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE STIFFER PENALTIES FOR PROS WHO FAIL TO FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS. If you want pro only work make sure the pro is worth the money.

75% of my concern about "pro only work" is getting a bad job and then having to fight with them about it only to lose because the pro is always right.

By the way Charlie, has there been a point so far where you and J A have not agreed?

Seems like the MA guys stick together.

j a_2

I sir am/was a professional...business is transfered to others....alls I did was post a written copy of the manf. Instructions.... And added my opinion....my point is by no means to argue with you or anyone....sorry you feel that way....I really do not care what you do or don't do...I had a hard enough time caring about little old me.....I have been on this site for years..Have attended many of Dan's classes pretty much read all his books,and attended Tims school in Rhode island...I have a right to my opinion... I will take no part in slamming anyone...I believe I have helped many many people over the years....The law is the law...I just go with it...don't u?

j a_2

Stick together...I have no idea what charlie even looks like lol....or if he is a mass state plumber....I would venture to say most regular posting pros on this site are pretty good at what they do..I advertised here and pretty sure MR. Dan is picky about who hangs on....The ones visable on this site self included are here to HELP....And will continue to do so..I always enjoyed it....Now with tons more time on my hands I read and post more often.....What I am not here for is to argue with homeowners, and handyfellers

Rich_49

I have a question . ja , Charlie , Ice . Did the people of Massachusetts ever vote on a proposed bill to allow only professional , licensed individuals to perform work in an individuals single family dwelling ? Or could it possibly have been enacted by some labor unions request to the elected officials they donated monies to ?

200+ years ago there were a whole bunch of laws also , what happened in your neck of the woods gents ?

jonny88

This is such a sticky one.Now in fairness to Chrisj and KC_jones they have posted pics of their install.Anyone here on this site would be proud of it in my opinion.After Sandy I saw the worst of what licensed companies did to people.When you hire a "pro" are you getting one.Example a large company might be run by the best guy in the world.Monday morning he sends out two guys still hungover now I believe it is the owners responsibility to check up but how many times do i see that.I work in a very competitive market and usually the cheap guy wins.My old boss if he saw crooked pipes even though they would be hidden would make you cut it out.Dont mess my reputation he would say>I am a small guy and try to emulate him but its damn hard.Anyhow here you got guys with piping and heating on their trucks.As long as it doesnt say plumbing they dont require a license.Take care guys.

ChrisJ

j a said:

Stick together...I have no idea what charlie even looks like lol....or if he is a mass state plumber....I would venture to say most regular posting pros on this site are pretty good at what they do..I advertised here and pretty sure MR. Dan is picky about who hangs on....The ones visable on this site self included are here to HELP....And will continue to do so..I always enjoyed it....Now with tons more time on my hands I read and post more often.....What I am not here for is to argue with homeowners, and handyfellers

You're my hero j a.

icesailor

ChrisJ said:

Charlie from wmass said:

I am in agreement with ja this time. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE STIFFER PENALTIES FOR PROS WHO FAIL TO FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS. If you want pro only work make sure the pro is worth the money.

75% of my concern about "pro only work" is getting a bad job and then having to fight with them about it only to lose because the pro is always right.

By the way Charlie, has there been a point so far where you and J A have not agreed?

Seems like the MA guys stick together.

That "75% Pro-Work" that goes bad is usually from people hiring the lowest price and taking a chance. You have better odds with scratch off tickets at the local convenience store. And no one ever complains about buying a ticket that doesn't pay off.

You don't like Massachusetts codes? At least we have a universal and unified code, with the same rules from Provincetown to Pittsfield. Where local inspectors can't make it up a they go along. Where the same permit application is used state wide. A local town can add things, as long a the first page meets the State standard. We all get 6 hours a year of continuing education, decided by he Board of Examiners of Plumbers & Gas Fitters. Inspectors are required to have 12 hours of CEU. All sources of CEU MUST be approved by the Board, and the instructors are mostly Voc. School instructors or Master Plumbers, certified by the Dept. of Education.

Steamhead posted something recently about all the different codes and interpretations in Baltimore and Maryland. I can't imagine working efficiently and competitively in a place like that. It makes things wide open for AHJ's having their hands out behind, with palms up.

Those manufactures instruction are "Suggestions". They are not legally binding. But it gives manufacturers an out. Experience is the key. Without that, all is lost. There's no substitute for experience and understanding what you are doing. Just because you THINK you know what you are doing, doesn't mean that you do.