Since I am good at starting heated discussions

j a_2

null. Thanks. I am happy

Jamie Hall

Well put, Chris.

SWEI

One of our biggest problems is the "contractors" who don't collect or pay taxes (gross receipts, payroll, you name it.) No workers' comp either, of course. Some of them even have current licenses.

j a_2

My stand is this I am not pro for pro. I am for professionalism...I just happen to live in a state that has laws unique to this state....I had to live with them or suffer the consequences...Far be it for me to oppose other states laws..If I was a capable homeowner I would hate to have to hire someone...I think my delivery offends some... That is not my intention,and never will be..If I view a post and reply its generally always my opinion...I am not Mr.perfect

j a_2

So if I offended anyone my apologies...

j a_2

Most important than anything is my new and first grandson is flying in from the Carolinas this Thursday... omg can't wait

Rich_49

I also say that we see plenty of code minimum systems that were permitted and inspected here on The Wall which have significant problems .

ja , enjoy this time with your new grandson .

j a_2

Rich said:

I also say that we see plenty of code minimum systems that were permitted and inspected here on The Wall which have significant problems .

ja , enjoy this time with your new grandson .

Rich. Thank you very much. That's awesome

j a_2

Chris, don't know you or where your from...But I am sure your intentions are the best....My best friend in life did not think like me....And we both knew that....

icesailor

Some people need to give supply houses more credit than they do, and understand how life is.

Some HO walks into ABC Supply and wants to buy a boiler that is only sold at ABC supply. They want to pay cash for the boiler and get their 2% cash discount. Plus any other amount they can beat out of the manager. There are two different guys waiting to see the manager about jobs. The HO is PO'ed because they are taken first. Two guys who do $100,000+ per year and buy almost exclusively at ABC supply.

ABC hires the best countermen they can hire. Even though there is a sign on the end of a row, for all to see that says "Our contractors Come First", there will be some antsy HO with some part that belongs in the scrap barrel, looking for a part to fix it. Because he couldn't find anything at HD. Lowes or the local ACE Hardware. Or fittings to connect their latest Plumbing Picasso for which they are clueless about available fittings and how to connect them. Stand in line waiting with a list and listen to some of the really stupid questions asked of countermen. Theie job is to take the order, put it in the computer, get the slip, get a box, and accurately fill the work boxes so we can get back to the job and do our jobs. It isn't the job of the counterman to be your personal instructor. Counterpersons aren't authorized to negotiate over price. If you want to negotiate, see the manager. See how far that gets you.

They know each and every regular customer that is paying their salary. They know who pays and who doesn't. Who'd been shut off and who is now OK. They know each and every customer that trades down the street, and what they either don't carry, or just ran out of. They know the customer that gives 90% of their business to pay their salary, and the ones that give 90% to the place down the street. Who do you think they give the best service to?

Does the Internet Wholesaler have Eat & Greets in the stores so you can meet the knowledgeable to show you the latest? Do they have really good back-up employees that can talk you through a problem? Or come to a job with their vast experience to help you out?

I doubt it.

ChrisJ

icesailor said:

Some people need to give supply houses more credit than they do, and understand how life is.

Some HO walks into ABC Supply and wants to buy a boiler that is only sold at ABC supply. They want to pay cash for the boiler and get their 2% cash discount. Plus any other amount they can beat out of the manager. There are two different guys waiting to see the manager about jobs. The HO is PO'ed because they are taken first. Two guys who do $100,000+ per year and buy almost exclusively at ABC supply.

ABC hires the best countermen they can hire. Even though there is a sign on the end of a row, for all to see that says "Our contractors Come First", there will be some antsy HO with some part that belongs in the scrap barrel, looking for a part to fix it. Because he couldn't find anything at HD. Lowes or the local ACE Hardware. Or fittings to connect their latest Plumbing Picasso for which they are clueless about available fittings and how to connect them. Stand in line waiting with a list and listen to some of the really stupid questions asked of countermen. Theie job is to take the order, put it in the computer, get the slip, get a box, and accurately fill the work boxes so we can get back to the job and do our jobs. It isn't the job of the counterman to be your personal instructor. Counterpersons aren't authorized to negotiate over price. If you want to negotiate, see the manager. See how far that gets you.

They know each and every regular customer that is paying their salary. They know who pays and who doesn't. Who'd been shut off and who is now OK. They know each and every customer that trades down the street, and what they either don't carry, or just ran out of. They know the customer that gives 90% of their business to pay their salary, and the ones that give 90% to the place down the street. Who do you think they give the best service to?

Does the Internet Wholesaler have Eat & Greets in the stores so you can meet the knowledgeable to show you the latest? Do they have really good back-up employees that can talk you through a problem? Or come to a job with their vast experience to help you out?

I doubt it.

Like I've said in previous threads,
When I go to a supply house to buy things I know exactly what I want and often have a brand and part number ready.

I don't expect them to figure out what I want and I try not to waste their time. I also have no problem with them taking regular's and account customers first.

The last thing I bought from a supply house was a Ridgid 2A and the guy had no problem grabbing one for me.

Paul48

Find a supply that is equally helpful to all that walk through their door. Use them, and recommend friends to them. Let the supply houses , that want to be pricks, be pricks with empty counters. None of us are "all knowing". There is new technology coming out all the time, and I have seen countermen explaining how new things are applied to seasoned plumbers, all the time.
Every plumber in Mass, knows why the laws are in place there. It's a sweet deal for them, but it has nothing to do with protecting the public.....nothing as noble as that.

Fred

I don't know how many times I've gone into my local supply house and seen the counter people trying to help a Professional plumber or trade person figure out how to fix something or how to use an alternative part to repair an obsolete part. That's the nature of the beast. If you need help and someone is willing to try and help, stand tall and ask for it. be it a Pro or a HO. As a rule, I too know what I want or need when I go in there and those guys get me in and out of there just like they do the Pro's even though I will stand back and wait, they call me up in the order they saw me come in and there have been a few times that they have said to me "You ought to consider using this part instead of the original and they take me back into the warehouse to show me my options.
We all have our own life stories, none any better or worse than another. If we are fortunate enough to be able to afford to pay someone else to do a job, we do that and if we want to make sure it's done right, we oversee that work. If, On the other hand, we have more ambition than funds, we do what we have to to tackle it ourselves, learning along the way. The only difference between a Pro and a novice is the PRO knows his options and knows when he is doing the job right or if he is cutting corners. The Novice only knows he either has to put it back exactly like it was or he decides to take a risk and do something different, hoping for a good outcome. In either case, it assumes they care enough to try to do it right. As far as liability is concerned, where family and well-being are at issue, if I do a job myself or I pick a Pro to do it, the burden of doing the right thing and keeping them safe still lays at my feet.
Neither the PRO, nor the HO should begruge the other. It makes no sense.

RobG

I believe that if a permit is pulled, a HO should be able to do work and take responsibility for that work in their own home. However, I think that the inspectors should be well paid and trained to properly inspect that work. Re-fees should be paid for return trips. When the motto is "those who can't do teach, and those who can't teach become inspectors" the system has failed.

ChrisJ

RobG said:

I believe that if a permit is pulled, a HO should be able to do work and take responsibility for that work in their own home. However, I think that the inspectors should be well paid and trained to properly inspect that work. Re-fees should be paid for return trips. When the motto is "those who can't do teach, and those who can't teach become inspectors" the system has failed.

I'm good with that as long as contractors get the same fee for return trips.

Fred

RobG said:

I believe that if a permit is pulled, a HO should be able to do work and take responsibility for that work in their own home. However, I think that the inspectors should be well paid and trained to properly inspect that work. Re-fees should be paid for return trips. When the motto is "those who can't do teach, and those who can't teach become inspectors" the system has failed.

LOL, You want to start this up some more huh? I don't know if I agree with you on Re-Fees??? Let me see, we pay local and state taxes for these employee salaries, we pay an inspection fee when we get a permit and now you think a Re-Re Fee is appropriate too. I guess if it applies equally across the board regardless of the installer (Pro or Homeowner), I'll consider a third payment, if they do their job. If they fail to do their job, maybe they should give me a triple refund. How bout that?

Charlie from wmass

We have re inspection fees in Massachusetts already. If you miss your appointment or fail your inspection.

RobG

Fred said:

RobG said:

I believe that if a permit is pulled, a HO should be able to do work and take responsibility for that work in their own home. However, I think that the inspectors should be well paid and trained to properly inspect that work. Re-fees should be paid for return trips. When the motto is "those who can't do teach, and those who can't teach become inspectors" the system has failed.

LOL, You want to start this up some more huh? I don't know if I agree with you on Re-Fees??? Let me see, we pay local and state taxes for these employee salaries, we pay an inspection fee when we get a permit and now you think a Re-Re Fee is appropriate too. I guess if it applies equally across the board regardless of the installer (Pro or Homeowner), I'll consider a third payment, if they do their job. If they fail to do their job, maybe they should give me a triple refund. How bout that?

A pro should do it right the first time! The inspector should not need to be the teacher (but he should have the knowledge to be) If a HO wants to do it him or herself it's okay with me. I have been re-feed for failing an inspection as a pro. **** happens, you order a part that does not come in and you can't get ahold of the inspector to cancel, you get a re-fee when he or she shows up. But I find more often then not that the inspectors are not properly educated and are just going through the motions. If I know which inspector is coming to my job on any given day I can tell you exactly what he is going to look at, no more, no less.

Fred, I think you missed my point.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

We have re inspection fees in Massachusetts already. If you miss your appointment or fail your inspection.

Ok nevermind, must be a bad idea then.

Charlie from wmass

Once again in Massachusetts our inspectors are trained Master level licensed for the given trade and take twice the continuing education as the tradesmen do.

Fred

I think we are all saying the same thing. A Pro should do it right the first time, a HO shouldn't do it if he doesn't know what he/she is doing so it too should be done right when an inspector shows up and certainly the Inspector should know right from wrong when he/she does an inspection. Oh if we lived in an ideal world.

ChrisJ

RobG said:

Fred said:

RobG said:

I believe that if a permit is pulled, a HO should be able to do work and take responsibility for that work in their own home. However, I think that the inspectors should be well paid and trained to properly inspect that work. Re-fees should be paid for return trips. When the motto is "those who can't do teach, and those who can't teach become inspectors" the system has failed.

LOL, You want to start this up some more huh? I don't know if I agree with you on Re-Fees??? Let me see, we pay local and state taxes for these employee salaries, we pay an inspection fee when we get a permit and now you think a Re-Re Fee is appropriate too. I guess if it applies equally across the board regardless of the installer (Pro or Homeowner), I'll consider a third payment, if they do their job. If they fail to do their job, maybe they should give me a triple refund. How bout that?

A pro should do it right the first time! The inspector should not need to be the teacher (but he should have the knowledge to be) If a HO wants to do it him or herself it's okay with me. I have been re-feed for failing an inspection as a pro. **** happens, you order a part that does not come in and you can't get ahold of the inspector to cancel, you get a re-fee when he or she shows up. But I find more often then not that the inspectors are not properly educated and are just going through the motions. If I know which inspector is coming to my job on any given day I can tell you exactly what he is going to look at, no more, no less.

Fred, I think you missed my point.

Of course they should but we've seen tons and tons of pictures showing this is often not the case! If you put inspectors that are strict, especially regarding steam systems and proper piping you're going to have a whole lot of failures. Based on the amount we see piped wrong I'd say 80% failure rate.

That said,
The homeowner should do it right the first time as well or they shouldn't be doing it.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

Once again in Massachusetts our inspectors are trained Master level licensed for the given trade and take twice the continuing education as the tradesmen do.

Why do we hear about so many steamers piped wrong or jobs done wrong in MA then?

You yourself told me you spend a lot of time correcting work.

Paul48

Because there is no requirement to inspect for anything other than what could affect public, or the safety of those in the residence

Fred

Fred, I think you missed my point.
@RobG , I didn't miss your point. I just thought I'd help stir the pot again.

Jamie Hall

Having been an inspector -- though that was decades ago! -- may I respectfully add a comment?

There were, when I was working, some professionals with whom we had a very good, close, working arrangement. They would make suggestions to us (there were four of us; two teams of two) and we would make suggestions to them, and everyone got along very well -- and things most often worked out well.

On the other hand, there were also folks with whom that didn't happen, for various reasons I expect. There, not so much. We would see things which were pretty horrible -- like some of the things we see here on the wall -- but if they were legal, we'd say nothing because there was no point to it. On the other hand, very frankly we looked at everything which was covered by code with a rather sharp eye, and woe unto you if we found a problem...

I much preferred the former!

For what little it's worth, at that time our services were paid for by the State we were working for -- no fees. Although, in the cases of the second sort, arranging a time for a re-inspection when necessary could get difficult, as we were rather busy...

ChrisJ

Proper steam boiler piping should be a code requirement.

If they are pushing so hard to force manufacturers to have to meet certain efficiency requirements shouldn't the boiler have to actually do that in the home?

We all know a steamer piped wrong is horribly inefficient, so why is it ok?

I watched a boiler at a friends house puke all of it's water up into the mains and shut down on low water every 1 to 2 minutes and it did this until the house was hot. It passed inspection!

No header, I don't think it even had the halfbaked equalizer coming out of the side of the riser, nothing, undersized copper right into the main. Oh, wait, it had to have had the halfbaked equalizer because it had a hartford loop that wasn't the right height.

j a_2

Jamie, sounds like u have been around awhile... As an inspector I am sure you have seen a lot...good and bad....And I am sure u used common sense...we as plumbers must file permits,and that's fine with me..As a second set of eyes are always great.... Absolutely no problem.... Its funny why auto mechs can replace all kind of safety devices on automobiles,brakes air bags,steering wheel's, brake lines with no Insp . required...Then these autos are driving 60+ mph

ChrisJ

You know what I'm curious about.

In New Jersey does a licensed contractor have to file for a permit and get an inspection on a boiler installation?

j a_2

Chris that's a good question.... In my area the answer is yes..the plumbing inspection is, gas,venting,and safety...Recently many tows are requiring mechanical permits for heat loss.

wogpa67

I only ever did work in NJ for my old boss. IIRC every mechanical trade has to pull a permit and get an inspection.

ChrisJ

j a said:

Chris that's a good question.... In my area the answer is yes..the plumbing inspection is, gas,venting,and safety...Recently many tows are requiring mechanical permits for heat loss.

The only thing I had done by a professional on my system was the chimney and because they were licensed it didn't need to be inspected.

I'm just not sure if chimneys are something special or not.

wogpa67

I luckily only worked at the chambers works for 2 or 3 days. No inspections at that place.

We did a lot of work at Siegfried chemical outside of Pennsville. No inspections there other than the truck/van and your person anytime you entered or left the facility. Not as scary as the works but Federal contracts and a constant mist?(who knows what that was)

Pine Valley country club. We were there for about 3- 3 1/2 years. Water lines in NJ can not be trapped IIRC. I think NJ had/has a simple system. It seemed to be effective to me.

Rich_49

Chris , Boiler replacements DO REQUIRE a permit and an inspection . Except when a major natural disaster such as Sandy happens then all sorts of S$#T goes in with no inspections with the governments blessing . We happened to be the recipients of everything left in the pipeline , no longer allowed to be manufactured just after the new 2012 boiler efficiency codes took effect . Lucky me!

SWEI

ChrisJ said:

The only thing I had done by a professional on my system was the chimney and because they were licensed it didn't need to be inspected.

Am I the only one who nearly choked on this?

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

ChrisJ said:

The only thing I had done by a professional on my system was the chimney and because they were licensed it didn't need to be inspected.

Am I the only one who nearly choked on this?

Actually, I just remembered an important detail about it.
I was wrong.

I forgot some important details, it did need to be inspected. They even had a guy come out to inspect the firestops before we closed the walls up.

Had a rough day, sorry.

jonny88

@Rich that was my problem to,when everything calmed down I had to repipe 5boilers done by boiler companies but by that time they had flew the coup.Very hard on the homeowner having to deal with it twice.By the way I mean complete repipes as in new installs.Will never get the pic out of my head of guys in the supply house who I never saw before high fiving each other thinking of their next victim.Having said that they were a vast minority but they popped out of some crevice.

j a_2

That is one sad story...the end user gets stiffed again...that to me is like walking into there house and robbing them..
Criminals

icesailor

RobG said:

I believe that if a permit is pulled, a HO should be able to do work and take responsibility for that work in their own home. However, I think that the inspectors should be well paid and trained to properly inspect that work. Re-fees should be paid for return trips. When the motto is "those who can't do teach, and those who can't teach become inspectors" the system has failed.

There was a time when I sort of thought that way.

Then, I started thinking about if "I" was an inspector, and had to explain to some homeowner how you can't wet vent a new 2" shower drain, reduced to 1 1/2", wet venting a lavatory and draining into a 1 1/2" kitchen sink drain connected to a 3" X 3" X 1 1/2" TY on its back. Connected to the toilet run that is 15' from the main stack.

Be an inspector and try explaining why it has to be done over, and that his cousin's brother in law, who once worked as a laborer for a plumbing & Heating Company (on the heating end) who did the plumbing for cash, should keep his job at Ace Hardware or managing a 7-11 that sells cheap gasoline. Its bad enough dealing with licensed people with a deep genetic defect of hackitis with some of the stupid's mixed in.

icesailor

Rich said:

I have a question . ja , Charlie , Ice . Did the people of Massachusetts ever vote on a proposed bill to allow only professional , licensed individuals to perform work in an individuals single family dwelling ? Or could it possibly have been enacted by some labor unions request to the elected officials they donated monies to ?

200+ years ago there were a whole bunch of laws also , what happened in your neck of the woods gents ?

Massachusetts was the first State in the USA to set up Plumbing Codes, Chapter 142 of the General Laws, as a set of safety regulations. Mostly because of water heaters blowing up. Around 1900. Watts Regulator was one of the first to invent and design relief valves for overheating water heaters. It evolved from that.

In the early days, large cities and towns had their own codes and licensing. It was a PITA like New York is now. Boston was the worst. They adopted the Chapter 142 Uniform Code and applied it to cities and towns over certain sizes. Then, over time, they lowered population setting. When they did, there was never any "Grandfathering". You still had to sit for a test. Boston may still have their own licensing, and code exceptions, but any licensed plumber in the Commonwealth can do plumbing and gas work in Boston or any other town.

A Master Plumber also has a Journeyman's license. A Journeyman may go in business, but he can't hire an apprentice or another Journeyman Plumber. A Master Plumber can hire another Journeyman Plumber, and an Apprentice for himself and the Journeyman. Apprentices can not be left unsupervised by a Journeyman Plumber on a job. A Master Plumber can't hire 10 helpers to do the work. Apprentices MUST register as apprentices and only registered apprentices can be employed in the business of plumbing. They need legitimate payroll records with all taxes paid for the duration of their apprenticeships. No gaps with cash payments under the table. Master Plumbers employing apprentices have to sign off under penalty of law that they have payroll records to cover the time that the apprentices are claiming to have worked. And that is only for plumbing and gas.

If John88 was working in Massachusetts, he wouldn't be going through that BS working on the other side of the river in the same State.