Since I am good at starting heated discussions

ChrisJ

Is a homeowner allowed to install a kitchen faucet in his home in MA?

If not, why?

RobG

I vote on ending this "Heated Discussion". There will never be a winner and it has taken on a life of it's own (thanks Charlie ). Unless I went back five pages I could not tell you what it started out about.

Rich_49

What can be done to balance public safety and personal freedom when it comes to mechanical systems?

That was the first question from Charlie . Balance between personal freedom and code

Rich_49

Rich didn't say , Charlie said Hat .

Rich_49

Hat , go back to page 1, post 1 . This was Charlies first post in his discussion .

ChrisJ

I'm really curious about my kitchen faucet question. I cannot see any reason this would pose some kind of danger to someone or the city.

Rich_49

Bite me .

RobG

ChrisJ said:

I'm really curious about my kitchen faucet question. I cannot see any reason this would pose some kind of danger to someone or the city.

I could care less if someone wants to replace their faucet, I can barley fit under a cabinet anymore. The only question might be if there is a leak and you have to file an insurance claim the insurance company might want a scapegoat.

RobG

RobG said:

ChrisJ said:

I'm really curious about my kitchen faucet question. I cannot see any reason this would pose some kind of danger to someone or the city.

I could care less if someone wants to replace their faucet, I can barley fit under a cabinet anymore. The only question might be if there is a leak and you have to file an insurance claim the insurance company might want a scapegoat.

I don't know why I answered that? I said I was done with this post!

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

I'm really curious about my kitchen faucet question. I cannot see any reason this would pose some kind of danger to someone or the city.

ChrisJ -- so far as I know, in most if not all jurisdictions if it is your house and your faucet you can fix it yourself.

In some jurisdictions there may be a chance that if you don't do it right, it could be caught as a problem if and when you were to sell if you had not done it safely.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

I'm really curious about my kitchen faucet question. I cannot see any reason this would pose some kind of danger to someone or the city.

Homeowner lives on the second floor in a Condominium.

Homeowner shuts off water to the faucet using the supply valves beneath the sink. Doesn't realize the supply valves are toast and do not shutoff.

Takes supply off the valve and gets an explosion of water.

Doesn't know where the main shutoff valve is in the building.....................

Condominiums probably have special rules, or at least they should. That's not what I mean and you know it.

Paul48

At the end of the day.....nothing will change. Well....the sun will go down.

ChrisJ

RobG said:

ChrisJ said:

I'm really curious about my kitchen faucet question. I cannot see any reason this would pose some kind of danger to someone or the city.

I could care less if someone wants to replace their faucet, I can barley fit under a cabinet anymore. The only question might be if there is a leak and you have to file an insurance claim the insurance company might want a scapegoat.

I'm wondering what

RobG said:

RobG said:

ChrisJ said:

I'm really curious about my kitchen faucet question. I cannot see any reason this would pose some kind of danger to someone or the city.

I could care less if someone wants to replace their faucet, I can barley fit under a cabinet anymore. The only question might be if there is a leak and you have to file an insurance claim the insurance company might want a scapegoat.

I don't know why I answered that? I said I was done with this post!

I don't know why you put that you could care less? If you can care less that means you do care.

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

ChrisJ said:

I'm really curious about my kitchen faucet question. I cannot see any reason this would pose some kind of danger to someone or the city.

ChrisJ -- so far as I know, in most if not all jurisdictions if it is your house and your faucet you can fix it yourself.

In some jurisdictions there may be a chance that if you don't do it right, it could be caught as a problem if and when you were to sell if you had not done it safely.

I asked because it sounds like in MA you're not even allowed to plunge your own toilet.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

I'm really curious about my kitchen faucet question. I cannot see any reason this would pose some kind of danger to someone or the city.

Homeowner lives on the second floor in a Condominium.

Homeowner shuts off water to the faucet using the supply valves beneath the sink. Doesn't realize the supply valves are toast and do not shutoff.

Takes supply off the valve and gets an explosion of water.

Doesn't know where the main shutoff valve is in the building.....................

Condominiums probably have special rules, or at least they should. That's not what I mean and you know it.

A condominium might have special rules. However the municipality has to consider all possibilities and not presume the condominium will enact rules. You asked how a change in a faucet could pose a danger to someone or the city. I answered how it could pose a financial risk to someone, being the homeowner or an adjacent homeowner.

If you were only speaking of physical dangers, then the scenario doesn't apply.

If you want to take the meddling of the state to the extreme, you legislate against such a scenario.

Since when should financial risk be any of the governments business?

They claim these codes are in place for safety reasons, not so someone's insurance costs don't go up.

RobG

ChrisJ said:

RobG said:

ChrisJ said:

I'm really curious about my kitchen faucet question. I cannot see any reason this would pose some kind of danger to someone or the city.

I could care less if someone wants to replace their faucet, I can barley fit under a cabinet anymore. The only question might be if there is a leak and you have to file an insurance claim the insurance company might want a scapegoat.

I'm wondering what

RobG said:

RobG said:

ChrisJ said:

I'm really curious about my kitchen faucet question. I cannot see any reason this would pose some kind of danger to someone or the city.

I could care less if someone wants to replace their faucet, I can barley fit under a cabinet anymore. The only question might be if there is a leak and you have to file an insurance claim the insurance company might want a scapegoat.

I don't know why I answered that? I said I was done with this post!

I don't know why you put that you could care less? If you can care less that means you do care.

No, I really don't!

Fred

Oh My God, Guys!

ChrisJ

RobG said:

ChrisJ said:

RobG said:

ChrisJ said:

I'm really curious about my kitchen faucet question. I cannot see any reason this would pose some kind of danger to someone or the city.

I could care less if someone wants to replace their faucet, I can barley fit under a cabinet anymore. The only question might be if there is a leak and you have to file an insurance claim the insurance company might want a scapegoat.

I'm wondering what

RobG said:

RobG said:

ChrisJ said:

I'm really curious about my kitchen faucet question. I cannot see any reason this would pose some kind of danger to someone or the city.

I could care less if someone wants to replace their faucet, I can barley fit under a cabinet anymore. The only question might be if there is a leak and you have to file an insurance claim the insurance company might want a scapegoat.

I don't know why I answered that? I said I was done with this post!

I don't know why you put that you could care less? If you can care less that means you do care.

No, I really don't!

Then you meant you couldn't care less.

But we know you do care so it's ok.

Besides, welcome to the Thread California. You can checkout but you can never leave.

bob_46

youse guys think codes are tuff now

icesailor

ChrisJ said:

Is a homeowner allowed to install a kitchen faucet in his home in MA?

If not, why?

A homeowner is allowed to replace a kitchen sink faucet in Massachusetts. Along with the kitchen sink, toe toilet, tub and sink. As long as the homeowner doesn't move the drain or locations of said fixtures.

The keyword is "Altering". Replacing a faucet is considered a repair.

icesailor

MY experience.

I may not give a rats **** how good or bad a homeowner can do their own plumbing, electrical or heating work. They may need permits and inspections. Most never get them.

THEN, THEY SELL THE HOUSE.

And some unsuspecting stranger buys it.

I hated fixing the hacks of hacks in hacked homeowners former projects.

ChrisJ

icesailor said:

MY experience.

I may not give a rats **** how good or bad a homeowner can do their own plumbing, electrical or heating work. They may need permits and inspections. Most never get them.

THEN, THEY SELL THE HOUSE.

And some unsuspecting stranger buys it.

I hated fixing the hacks of hacks in hacked homeowners former projects.

That's fine.
I hated fixing hacks of the hacked plumber that was always hired to do work here before I bought the house.

So what's your point?

vaporvac

Hallelujah! I hate finding hack work in my house, especially when I realized I did it. It's never been a safety issue, though, just experience and knowledge as to best practices.

4Johnpipe

@ChrisJ Yes a permit is required under the plumbing section for the boiler safety controls in NJ. Even a homeowner should pull a permit for a boiler install. They are also supposed to request a formal heat loss for the residence. Problem is a lot of inspectors have no idea what they are looking at in the heat loss. They just match the total BTU load of the heat loss to the boiler. I am also a licensed HCS, ICS, Subcode and Construction Official.
I actually had a subcode official fail a job we installed because the boiler was smaller than the one we removed (surprise!) and did not match the BTU output of the existing baseboard heat emitters.
I was speechless...I think the correspondence took more time than the boiler install and I hope the inspector learned something.

Fred

While you guys were having this "Discussion" today, I cut two lawns, Edged them both and spread 12 cubic yards of mulch. I come back in and you are still debating the principals of quality work, be it from a licensed Pro or a homeowner. Huh, Huh, Huh

EDIT: I might get the house painted before this discussion ends but you've peaked my interest

ChrisJ

4Johnpipe said:

@ChrisJ Yes a permit is required under the plumbing section for the boiler safety controls in NJ. Even a homeowner should pull a permit for a boiler install. They are also supposed to request a formal heat loss for the residence. Problem is a lot of inspectors have no idea what they are looking at in the heat loss. They just match the total BTU load of the heat loss to the boiler. I am also a licensed HCS, ICS, Subcode and Construction Official.
I actually had a subcode official fail a job we installed because the boiler was smaller than the one we removed (surprise!) and did not match the BTU output of the existing baseboard heat emitters.
I was speechless...I think the correspondence took more time than the boiler install and I hope the inspector learned something.

Thanks for responding @4Johnpipe

I actually have a pretty good idea what my heat loss is at several temperatures. For example, at 0F it's extremely close to 70,000 btu an hour and 80,000 at- 8F. At 20F it's about 43,000 btu an hour.

This is assuming little or no wind and no sun. I have some pretty bad infiltration issues so the loss is more at colder temperatures than it should be. This is a 1616 sqft 2 story balloon framed house built in the 1860s.

When I pulled my permits to do the boiler, water heater and chimney no heat loss was ever requested. Perhaps because the radiation is already present and it's a steam system?

I found the inspectors as well as the building official to be very easy to deal with.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

While you guys were having this "Discussion" today, I cut two lawns, Edged them both and spread 12 cubic yards of mulch. I come back in and you are still debating the principals of quality work, be it from a licensed Pro or a homeowner. Huh, Huh, Huh

EDIT: I might get the house painted before this discussion ends but you've peaked my interest

At least we're talking to each other.
You were outside ignoring the forum!

Fred

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

While you guys were having this "Discussion" today, I cut two lawns, Edged them both and spread 12 cubic yards of mulch. I come back in and you are still debating the principals of quality work, be it from a licensed Pro or a homeowner. Huh, Huh, Huh

EDIT: I might get the house painted before this discussion ends but you've peaked my interest

At least we're talking to each other.
You were outside ignoring the forum!

Yea, this was about the only thread that had any activity and I figured it wouldn't be to hard to "get the jest" of any new posts

Charlie from wmass

@DAN can you lock this beast I created and put us in timeout as we forgot how to play nicely.

BobC

We really should just agree to disagree when it gets like this. There are more important fish to fry.

Bob

Jamie Hall

Charlie from wmass said:

@"DAN " can you lock this beast I created and put us in timeout as we forgot how to play nicely.

I second that motion...

rick in Alaska

Ok, my time to chime in. In the area I live in there is one plumbing inspector that has a range covering the entire Kenai peninsula from Anchorage. That is 240 miles to my house. Therefore, we never see an inspector here, except in the summer time and only one day a month. There are no permit requirements, but contrary to popular belief, we are expected to plumb to the codes.
I built my own house including the wiring, plumbing and heating, which we are allowed to do here. All the work I have done is done to code. I had inspections done by the local home inspector because we get better loan rates if we do. Now he is not a certified plumber, boiler installer, etc, but he did contracting work at one time, so does have general knowledge. plus, he has to do a lot of continued education covering all the areas he inspects. I know that between his inspections of my work along with my knowledge that this house will pass any inspections.
P.S. I carry a State of Alaska general contractors license, journeyman plumbing license, and mechanical administrators license. In 22 years here, not one person has ever asked for any of them. I still average about $1000 a year in fees and education to keep them active.
There are a lot of God awful plumbing jobs around here that are not inspected. As a service plumber/heating guy, I see all of them. When I see one that is obviously dangerous to the homeowner, I will bring up the problem to them. Most of the time the people will fix it because they want it to be safe, but just don't know the "rules". I do my best to give as much help to people as I can before they get to the spot they are in because I know they are going to do it themselves anyway, and I want it to be safe. This is my community also and I need to help keep them protected as best as I can
So, in my opinion, I believe people should be able to do work in their own homes, but as someone else said, there should be a caveat the when the house is sold, there should be a disclaimer that it was not inspected for safety issues. Then it is up to the buyer to determine if they want to take on someone else's work.
Caveat Emptor
Rick

KC_Jones

Should we get the government to pass a code that says we all must get along? lol

ChrisJ

rick in Alaska said:

Ok, my time to chime in. In the area I live in there is one plumbing inspector that has a range covering the entire Kenai peninsula from Anchorage. That is 240 miles to my house. Therefore, we never see an inspector here, except in the summer time and only one day a month. There are no permit requirements, but contrary to popular belief, we are expected to plumb to the codes.
I built my own house including the wiring, plumbing and heating, which we are allowed to do here. All the work I have done is done to code. I had inspections done by the local home inspector because we get better loan rates if we do. Now he is not a certified plumber, boiler installer, etc, but he did contracting work at one time, so does have general knowledge. plus, he has to do a lot of continued education covering all the areas he inspects. I know that between his inspections of my work along with my knowledge that this house will pass any inspections.
P.S. I carry a State of Alaska general contractors license, journeyman plumbing license, and mechanical administrators license. In 22 years here, not one person has ever asked for any of them. I still average about $1000 a year in fees and education to keep them active.
There are a lot of God awful plumbing jobs around here that are not inspected. As a service plumber/heating guy, I see all of them. When I see one that is obviously dangerous to the homeowner, I will bring up the problem to them. Most of the time the people will fix it because they want it to be safe, but just don't know the "rules". I do my best to give as much help to people as I can before they get to the spot they are in because I know they are going to do it themselves anyway, and I want it to be safe. This is my community also and I need to help keep them protected as best as I can
So, in my opinion, I believe people should be able to do work in their own homes, but as someone else said, there should be a caveat the when the house is sold, there should be a disclaimer that it was not inspected for safety issues. Then it is up to the buyer to determine if they want to take on someone else's work.
Caveat Emptor
Rick

This is why people hire home inspectors before buying a home. Part of their job is to look at plumbing and heating issues.

vaporvac

This is what happens when the steam heating season ends.

ChrisJ

vaporvac said:

This is what happens when the steam heating season ends.

I'm steaming tonight so all is well.
Ran a few times so far, and we're supposed to have a low of 27.

Randy-LeeBraman

Reading KC Jones post brings back memories.I moved to PA back
in 1986 for the job i have now as maintenance supervisor for a
Childrens camp group.Coming from Mass i was introduced to the
wildwest of PA ,no codes,no inspections and just about anything
went.I found water heaters with a pipe plug where the TP valve should be,unvented in a childrens bunk.ice machine drains into the main sewar system with no traps,etc.Started my own business after a while in the field i was trained in which was HVAC as something to do during the down times at camp,and found out the same caliber of workmanship was going on in
the housing field.
Over the years i corrected what i found and tried to bring the this place up to some kind of standard above what i found,
using my knowledge of the codes i learned working in Mass.
And i did the same with the work i did for people in my own
business.
As he stated in 2003 PA implimented state wide building
code enforcement and a lot of people called foul,but to me it was a silent blessing .Its never bothered me to pull a permit for a job
and now its required and as far as safety i think it puts everybody
in a better place knowing that there is a standard that has to be met.

Charlie from wmass

@ Hatterasguy I Started the thread to have a discussion about what can be done to balance personal freedom with public safety as it was running over another thread. I called for the thread to be locked as comments like bite me and disparaging remarks as to my reading comprehension do little to further productive discussion. It is becoming rife with internet bravado and half truths of anecdotal evidence. We are not running I realise if I stand and argue with an idiot on a street corner a passersby would not be able to distinguish who was who.

jonny88

Charlie you gave birth to a monster and it took a life of its own.You sure know how to do it,**** Scots always looking for a fight........

Charlie from wmass

I am also not going to be called out to be ashamed of doing the right thing every day I pick up a wrench. Some days the fight is not worth the wind it takes to fill a decent set of bagpipes. That is the peace loving Irish side coming through I guess.