Hot water baseboard heating

Rich_49

Please Read

First off , I have  a question .  Was the Burnham rep from the distributor or does he represent Burnham and work for Burnham ?

 Second question would be Why in several different illustrated depictions in the Alpine manual do they show the indirect piped off of the boiler piping like we do with so many mod cons ? Third question is why would Burnham recommend the Taco 0014 w/o flo chek for an install using their Alliance indirect that requires less GPM than we have discussed here with only slightly higher head (9.5') , They list the Total head for Alpine , Alliance SL & piping loop head loss at 19.3' Head . This can be found on page 65 of your Alpine manual . Oddly enough there also happens to be  Burnhams equivalent length of copper fittings and sweat valves so one could figure equivalent pipe length for installed fittings and pipe can be figured . Maybe these installers never read that far into the book or maybe they just look at pictures and put in a pump where there is a pump and other devices where they are depicted never worrying about head , Cv , pipe size , pressures . That would be my guess . Too bad they didn't know sites like this existed and maybe they should log on and ask some questions .

http://cdn.usboiler.net/products/water-heaters/alliance-sl/assets/Alliance+SL+literature+2-13.pdf

  Baseboard , maybe you should  ask them these uncomfortable questions and demand an intelligent response from someone involved with this farcical installation . Make them explain how the mnual that came with this boiler could be wrong  Maybe have your husband ask since they seem to think you should not be involved and talk with him in your absence so he may keep you from pursuing the truth .

Just looked at pictures again and according to Burnhams charts on page 56 of your manual the installed piping is a Total equivalent length of around 144.5 feet of 1" type M , This takes into account 10 90's , 3 branch flow tees , 3 ball valves ( look like standard port ) , Flow check valve ( typical) and 40 feet of pipe , plus the equivalent length of the HX in Super Stor (46.5') . Total equivalent length is around 191' of Type M copper .  Is this feasible ?

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

I'm not sure where the Burnham rep came from....he was just called an Alpine rep to us, and he was the one who also stated that the 007 was fine.  My husband has been invovled as well.  He called to complain last night.  We have had 12 visits from them and he asked to let the owner know.  They said it is a publicly owned company so they could just let the managers and supervisors know.  I'm thinking they should re-measure all of our baseboard and see if they made an error there as well.  We were told the 80 was plenty big, now the rep said it was a tight fit, and we let them know before we purchased it that we have a 700 square foot room that only has a gas fire place for heat, and that we may eventually want to add baseboard in that room, so we wanted to make sure we got a big enough burner, and again, they said the 80 was sufficient.  sounds like that may be very wrong.  Rich I can print out what you said and ask them when they come again as I don't know the answers to those questions.Is there a way for me to tell if the 80 is too small?  We did have a biger burner before this.  I'm not sure of the size, but yesterday they said our old Burnham was bigger,

Ironman

Boiler Size

How many square feet is your house? What's the age? If it's old, have there been upgrades to the insulation, windows, etc? Would you consider it to be leaky, average or tight?

Harper111

It is a good boiler

It is fine equipment and a fine company. The support team from the manufacturer is excellent. Good luck getting the pump issue squared away.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

the house is about 2600 sq ft, but 700 sq ft are not in the heat zones, and is just heated by a gas fireplace.  the first floor was built in 1950, and the 2nd floor about 1998.  I think the windows have been upgraded, but not super recently.  I don't know about the insalation.  I would say 1998 for the 2nd floor since that is when it was built, but now sure about the 1st.  there is insalation in the basement ceiling, and in the attick 9 inches of it.  It seems a bit leaky, but that may be because the front door looks to be original and could be replaced.  kitchen redone in 2011, dining room built later on as well, and the 700 sq ft room built in 2004. 

PLUMMER

How about submitting

Pics and questions to Siegenthaler. He has a whole library of problem solving examples like this. Can learn a lot even if it doesn't apply exactly to your app. The pics help special plumbers like me.....lol

Even tho you have everything you need here already from some great members. You have the hardest problem, how to get your contractor to do it.

Time to climb the ladder higher, since those who tried still aren't getting it.

I know my boiler is not as good as yours, and my 30 gal ssu being smaller, still puts out more tempered water.

Tacos floproteam has great videos on explaining head and pump selection

Ironman

Heat Loss vs Boiler Size

Using the info that you provided tells me that your boiler can cover a heat loss of up to 34 btu's per square foot, not including the 700 sf. addition. If we add that, the boiler will handle a heat loss of 27 btu's per sf.



An average house with your description would probably need 25-30 btu's per sf. Disclaimer: That's not scientific, just a rough estimate from someone who's been doing heat loss calculations for about 35 years and knows where the numbers typically fall. A detailed heat loss calculation is the only way to know for sure.



Now, what that means is that your boiler is sized correctly even with the addition included. Going with a 105k btu would have been too much.



Also, jumping up to the 105k would only add another 3/4 gpm output to what you have now for domestic.



I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but the facts remain the same and, therefore, there's no need to look elsewhere: the three issues that need to be addressed are:



1. Size the circulator properly. The 007 can only move about 2 gpm based on the head loss info provided; the 008 will give you 7.3 gpm - that's over 3 1/2 times as much. If someone can see the difference in that, I can't help them. You need to stop letting them simply declare that the 007 is right because they say so and make them run the numbers scientifically.

2. Pipe the indirect properly. It does make a difference that supply and return are reversed as this will cause the coil not to have the maximum heat transfer it's rated for. It won't see the maximum temperature difference (delta T) all the way across the coil the way it is now. The greater the delta T, the greater the heat transfer.

3. Slow down the fill rate of your faucets. Either throttle the valves or install energy saver faucets. If you keep letting 5+ gpm out of the faucets, your gonna run out of hot in half the time that you would at 2.5 gpm. Just start filling the tub earlier at a slower rate. The same goes for the sink. An old one is very capable of dumping 5 gpm. There's no need for that: slow it down.



One additional thing will help that also been mentioned: set the aquastat on the indirect to at least 140-150* and set the mixing valve to 120* going to the faucets. This, in effect, increases the size of the indirect by storing more heat energy and will also insure that any Legionella is killed.

PLUMMER

Actual head calc

Since we have the specs from alpine and HTP, could the HO input some measurements.



For the HTP we need

Total HL@ 10gpm of the ssu-45 + total HL of the HTP zone piping. ( from supply header connection to return header connection) = SSU-45 total HL @ 10gpm

I'm not calculating the boiler or its pump HL assuming that part is correct for delta T of 20.

If this isn't correct , experts please set me straight. So all we need are some exact #'s.



For the 80 Alpine I see there is a wide range of HL specs depending on Delta T design, but at DT20 the ALP80 is 13' HL at 7gpm flow. Because there is not a full primary loop here and assuming all other zones shut down in priority mode we actually have two pumps in series feeding the SSU-45. Both the 0015 boiler pump and the 007F5. I'd have to go back and check but how does this effect flow with this near boiler piping? Will the 0015 boiler pump push past the 007 or just circuit the close tees? And if that's the case is the 0015 to much pump for the boiler?

I hope I'm not getting off track.

0015 msfs curve chart

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/00-3speed_family_curves.pdf



Page 33 of the alpine manual has the ALP80 flow charts,HL and DT. Unfortunately I can't post just that one page or chart. Maybe someone could help with posting both tank and boiler charts if possible. Take any guessing out of the equation hopefully. I'm guessing the HO is definately getting their learn on....

Weezbo

no , i think , you are right on track there..

if it is series piped circ it adds if it is tie the water in knots it detracts.

me save you heavy explanation , [ tie a knot in the water ] is a trick used to build dams in raging rivers , with water from that very river itself .

Pughie1

For what it's worth

I'm loving this thread, and for what it's worth. (Bare with me not to good at this computer stuff).

Since "Siggy's" name came up - I threw in some figures in my handy dandy

Sigenthaler Hydronic Design Studio II program.

Using the Equilivant Length Calculator and 1" Copper pipe at a flow rate of 10 GPM and 7.9 Ft of Head the SSU-45 represents an equilivant length of 175.3' of 1" copper

After carefully studing the photos and counting the fittings and valves etc. and allowing 200' of 1" copper for the SSU and 11/4" for the "near boiler piping and using the Hydronic Circuit Simulator the following pump results are given for the indirect storage tank piping circuit.

Taco 007 -  7.43 GPM

Taco 008 -  8.29 GPM

Taco 0010 - Low flow condition not reccomended, consult factory

Taco 0013 - 13.47 GPM

Taco 0014 -10.8 GPM

Grundfos UP 1558 speed 3 - 8.71 GPM

Grundfos  UP 2699F  11.53 GPM

Since upsizing the existing boiler is being considered perhaps this should be considered with regard to circulator selection .

Hope this may help. There are some very  smart experienced men here who are eager to help, I've been very impressed with there knowledge and willingness to help solve these problems with this and all other problems that come here.

John Pughe                                                                           

                                                                                    

       

Pughie1

For what it's worth

I'm loving this thread, and for what it's worth. (Bare with me not to good at this computer stuff).

Since "Siggy's" name came up - I threw in some figures in my handy dandy

Sigenthaler Hydronic Design Studio II program.

Using the Equilivant Length Calculator and 1" Copper pipe at a flow rate of 10 GPM and 7.9 Ft of Head the SSU-45 represents an equilivant length of 175.3' of 1" copper

After carefully studing the photos and counting the fittings and valves etc. and allowing 200' of 1" copper for the SSU and 11/4" for the "near boiler piping and using the Hydronic Circuit Simulator the following pump results are given for the indirect storage tank piping circuit.

Taco 007 -  7.43 GPM

Taco 008 -  8.29 GPM

Taco 0010 - Low flow condition not reccomended, consult factory

Taco 0013 - 13.47 GPM

Taco 0014 -10.8 GPM

Grundfos UP 1558 speed 3 - 8.71 GPM

Grundfos  UP 2699F  11.53 GPM

Since upsizing the existing boiler is being considered perhaps this should be considered with regard to circulator selection .

Hope this may help. There are some very  smart experienced men here who are eager to help, I've been very impressed with there knowledge and willingness to help solve these problems with this and all other problems that come here.

John Pughe                                                                           

                                                                                    

       

Rich_49

Analysis

Please read and give thoughts .  I spoke with HTP tech this morning and explained the situation and got their recommendations for flow and head loss .

     As per the Burnham manual .  Page 56 .

Do we all agree that the valves in the pix are standard port as opposed to full port ? Standard port = 12' TEL    Full port =  5.7 ' TEL

This is certainly not a swing check valve , Correct ?   If it were it would equal 4.5 ' of pipe , since it is a typical flo check though it has as much resistance as 54' of pipe .

3 sideport tees totaling 13.5 equivalent feet

10 90* fittings totaling 25' equivalent and roughly 40 feet of 1" type M copper .



If my math is correct we have a circuit that is 144 feet in equivalent length plus the actual HX @ 9.1 feet head  .  The heat lost from that length of run is roughly 8*F uninsulated .

   HTP states that at 7.3 GPM installed in this circuit that the head for this HX is 9.1 Ft Hd .  They also state that in fact the supply should be in the top port of the HX as we all know unlike the installer that counter flow is best practice . Burnham has depicted in several install illustrations that a DHW loop right off of the boiler loop is GOOD. 

   Boiler temp for domestic should be 188*F minimum ,  pump should be Taco 0011 or equal (8.94gpm @ 23.97 Ft/hd), Supply & Return should be reversed for indirect , Pipe circuit to indirect should be insulated , water in storage should be 150*-160* with mixing valve set at 115* -120* .   I personally would bite the bullet as the installer and cut and cap the installed lines and move their origin to the boiler loop and use the 0014 as per their recommendation on page 65 (manual) and be done with it . What we have here is an installer that is not willing to make good and learn something in the process .  We all had these types of mistakes at some point . I would hope that as I did we made the customer whole , ate the cost and called it Tuition as our esteemed host says .

 Please give your thoughts on the above recommendations so this family can get some closure . Baseboard heat help , please look in the find a contractor section of this site to see if there is indeed someone local to you .

  Also please don't take my word for it , call HTP and inquire . 508 - 763-8071, customer support , they are local and may just surprise you and send someone to see this . Burnham is in Pa , I highly doubt the man at your house was employed by anyone other than your contractors distributor . If he is in fact employed by Burnham he should be made to take a class on integrity .   

Pughie1

Supporting Rich

Rich,

I couldn't agree with your figures more in your latest post and earlier ones also. I only threw in my 2 cents in support of you and others in regard to proper circulator sizing for this job.

We can all agree that not enough BTU's is being transfered to the indirect, using the most important formula in all of hydronics BTU's = GPMx500xDeltaT proves that by increasing flow results in more BTU's being directed to DHW production. If they would ony follow all the worthy points you listed this issue would be resolved.

 

The only issue I might respectfully debate with you is the circulator  "Iso" flanges look like Webstones to me, they list those as full port in their catalog. Small potatoes I know.



John Pughe

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

so here is the latest and greatest...one of the higher ups just called and said they want to come back next week and install a brand new Alpine, but up it from the 80 to the 105, and also install a 45 gallon reserve hot water tank.  Does this sound like a good solution?  or does it sound like  they are extremely confused?  can anyone tell me what pump should go with the 105 because I think we all know they are going to come with the 007 no matter what.  they seem to love it

Ironman

Check my last post

It makes no sense to go to a 105k boiler. You'll only get another 3/4 gpm domestic and the boiler will be over-sized for space heating - not a good thing.



It seems like you got someone's attention that's wants to make it right which good, but putting all new equipment in without addressing what's really wrong is just like getting a larger gun but not knowing where to aim it.



The company and you would be much better off just listening to the professional advice given here than their shotgun approach to this.



The reverse indirect may be higher capacity, but if the train carrying the btu's ( 007 and piping) can't get to the depot any faster than before, it makes no difference how much bigger the new depot is.



I would suggest that you request of them to call HTP's engineering department and let them determine what needs to be done rather than trying to fix it with the "Bigger is better" approach.



Kinda strange isn't it: they're willing to spend thousands of $$ on bigger equipment rather than a few hundred on a circ and correct piping? What did Ben Franklin say? "Penny wise, but pound foolish."

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

they told us that they talked with HTP to come to this conclusion.    they just don't think that the pump or the reverse piping on the HTP bottom makes a difference.  we have tried to tell them numerous times now, but they are offering a new boiler before a new pump.  They keep telling us that our water pressure is extremely high and that

this is unique, and this is why some of the problems are happening.  I think this is why they want us to have the reserve tank.  Does a 45 gallon reserve tank sound too much, because it sounds huge to me.  we will call them back tomorrow and ask if they have new calcultions as to why they think it now needs a 105.  they never re-measured our baseboard, so it doesn't sound like they have any new numbers to go off of.  is the 105 and reserve tank going to cost us a lot more in a monthly bill?  I know it's not a good thing to oversize.  this whole process has been very strange. 

Ironman

I can't believe...

That someone in HTP's engineering told them that.



If your incoming water pressure is so high, why don't they install a Pressure Reducing Valve? No one with any real knowledge of hydronics would say to install a larger boiler and indirect when something as simple as installing a PRV would solve the problem.

Weezbo

so , can we discuss the heat now?

i really like system side as well as supply side ,



and after that maybe we can talk Plumbing and potable .



to me we are beating a dead horse with this , if nothing else at least you have a gauge and an anti- scald devise that now indicates the temp going out and increased the tempered hot water .



..................

Weezbo.



Let me be the devils advocate for a moment , i do that so the homeowners can more easily get the grip on what we are saying,



let us start with parallel primary , that i sort of think i mentioned earlier and no one stepped up and said Well , how do you think that is parallel primary exactly.

The boiler comes equipped with Domestic Priority over ride that shuts down the heating side so it is in effect a parallel primary.



where upon i would like to discuss that a little bit deeper , more along the lines of 1.dummy mixers ,

2.what i call flow reversal in what looks like primary secondary or

3. Rangeability mixing where i may reverse flow in two closely spaced T's to lower water temps or step down mixes..



and how the condition can come about in "The Wild" lol..



remember that the closely spaced Ts can indeed mix in either direction based upon a number of factors one being say intermittent pumping control....and while these "Work" it depends on what is it that you are out to accomplish specifically . do you want to lower the temps and mix them or do you want the coldest temps comming back to the heat source or the hottest temp going out to the field as in the caase of parallel primary With DPO .

for an example...

Ironman

Pressure

What is your incoming water pressure? Did they put a gauge on it or is this just more of their wild guessing?

knotgrumpy

Bob

I'm just a regular Joe, but how in the world can 'high' water pressure in the supply line have anything to do with this?  Surely there is a pressure reducing valve already installed or they would be blowing the pressure relief valve, right?

If they were talking about inadequate gas pressure there might be something there.



These poor people.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

I do not know the water pressure.  I hope they tested this and did not just say it because of the 5 gallon bucket test that I did for them.  they really don't understand why it's not working properly.  the alpine rep said the alpine is set up right, and the htp is set up right, but they do not know why the hot water is not heating up fast enough, and they are telling us that this is why we are running out.  they never solved the problem as to why this was happening, but the alpine rep hinted that the boiler is a tight fit.  they didn't give us any numbers, so we will call them back tomorrow to see if they re-measured anything, and why they think the 105 would solve the problem.  as far as the heat goes, it seems to be working, and it is an adjustment for us to have to get used to the fact that it is a lot slower than our old oil Burnham.  we have been leaving it at one temp all day, and turning back maybe 3 to 4 degrees at night.  I am curious to see what the new gas bill will be like with this because we were used to turning it way down when we left or at night with the oil burner.

knotgrumpy

Forget that...

They are probably talking about the high pressure/gpm  going through the indirect outstripping the capacity of it to keep up and recover.



Should be easy enough to test by opening faucet in tub halfway and start filling buckets again.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

and to be more specific about the heat, it went up 3 degrees in 1 hour this morning.

Weezbo

ok ....

This morning .... Before or after the thermostat was satisfied ?

before or after there was hot water useage?





here is a quote ."



you might like

it introduces a unique perspective and term.



Ptolemy advocated paying special attention to any planet "when it may be oriental, swift and direct in its proper course and motion – for it has then its greatest power."



he was referring to the perigee of the moon ... : )



the term is basically , "Swift and direct"...



say in contrast to an Indirect hot water maker that does not seem terribly swooft at this time.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

My husband turned the heat up 5 degrees, took a 10 minute shower with a low flow shower head, and an hour later, the heat had risen 3 degrees.  it did not reach what he set it at within that hour.  is this still too slow?

Rich_49

Weezbo

has discovered also that the little 007 is taking on the task of the boiler pump also . On a call for DHW the control is shutting down the boiler pump and that poor 007 is trying to move all water required through the boiler and DHW and ALL THAT PIPE . That's why they (Burnham) recommend the 0014 for DHW pump for Alpine , Indirect (alliance , same head and GPM we have determined) and associated piping (from boiler loop) .  Now I'll get even crazy , I'd be willing to bet that the other little 007 given the task of putting enough water through the baseboard is also nowhere near large enough to do that job either . 

   If the system was to stay as it is now , not even the 0011 would properly do the DHW , you would require a 0013 and I'd also bet that a 008 VDT would fix the heating side problem also .  What say you Gentlemen ?  

Weezbo

your heating system does have its own definition of comfortable

quite unlike the inhabitants of your home.



When the sun rises in the morning in three hours my home gets warmer too...

Because of solar gain.



solar heat is a form of radiant heat as it radiates down upon us things become warmer... base board work predominantly off the convective side of heating in that it radiates some heat and air currents are formed within the area then the heat is carried about on all manner of "Wind formations" .. in thirty below zero i expect to see about a 3 degree change in room temp in 7 mins for base board. forced air about the exact opposite . on radiant ...it may rise one degree an hour to perhaps 3 degrees because it is conducting heat to thermal mass rather than being carried about on convective currents , or blown about by forced air fans .

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

it was about 25 degrees out today.  so are you saying that my baseboard with the Alpine should be heating 3 degrees in 7 minutes?  or did I misunderstan.  I would say that is what is used to do on the oil burner, but we only tested that in September when it was quite warm out

Weezbo

did you reckon that ...

balancing this heating might be made easier with a few well dispersed temp gauges and maybe a watch ?

because that is what it sounds like you just said to me.

if i have the most sophisticated form of myopia,

i'd say that is what you mean.

now if the idea that a boiler sized to the heat loss and is able to meet the heat loss does not heat your home then we may have to look a little deeper,

i have real steady state temp control on some base board in a home and it is at a temp that i know, it is something that i only hinted at during some discussions here which you were not privileged to have had any inclination , where we helped change some numbers in the Burnham hand book on temp and base board.

these discussions were more of an experience sharing than some lab test of 40 years ago or whatever.

what that means is the Burnham representative would unlikely disregard something we were saying . off hand ...

i share this with you because i would like to determine the amount of radiation / baseboard , in length that has silver "Fins" upon it in the entire home. because that was also of relevance in our discussion at that time.

it will take some time with a yard stick and pencil and paper if you have that available ....

*~//: )

you can measure by approximation of length in a room by steps or cubits or common foot size or large one yard steps or smaller steps that is ok with me as long as you use some consistent form of measurement , and you can round UP in every room too because there is pipe and fittings that transfer the BTU's to the rooms and from that also emit or can emit heat ...

some of what is being discussed also at the moment are things that may seem sort of different in the language we use however , it is also in regards to your heating system overall and what is going on ...

what we are dicussing now might be described as some possibilities that due to our age we may have not been able to quite see straight in the pictures yet while points of conjecture can be possibly magically dispelled or brought to light thru open discussions ...

....

*~//: )

Weezbo

yes Rich , Just what if ?

just how much ummmph is the 07 producing is huge ... Temp is definitely apart of the equation too ...

for i have some really really low flow on massive slabs , that heat almost as fast as this baseboard...



the temperature requires it to be "Ramped" and once the btus are moving i can use circulation within sections to moderate other areas , insulation being a definite factor as well as infiltration not only the capacitance of the higher temp areas.



. .. ... .... ..... everyone counts , that is why it pays to wander off the wall as our Host, Dan , says .

Some times the old becomes the new ... just a couple weeks ago everyone was having a PONCP discussion and that is relevant , possibly , here in a very large way.



because it could just be the things may not be quite what they seem ..

and i too would like to learn how to improve my skill set . It is not like this lash up couldn't be right i just think in my mind that the possibility does exist that there may be some neglected aspect that we may not have been able to focus upon entirely ...

*~//: )

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

so they are saying they did not do a heat loss calculation because we

don't need one because we have baseboard, and they are not installing new heat in rooms.  we have 114ft of baseboard,

which would be times 580 btu's they said, and would be 68400 btu's.  does this make

sense?  should we not need a heat loss calculation?  they called it a

connective load not a heat loss calculation.  they said they can put in

the 105 and tune it down to be less so it won't short cycle.  the 80

should be fine so I'm a bit confused.  they said our water pressure is

82 psi and we dump 6 gallons per minute, and since we have a 35 gallon

tub, they want to give us an extra 50 gallon storage tank and a 105 so

that we are comfortable.  they did not put in a pressure valve because they did not want to change the water pressure for the whole house. 

Rich_49

Heat loss calculation

would have told how many BTUh the home actually required . Missed opportunities abound on this project . They sized the boiler per the installed radiation whether it was correct or not . Could have determined if lower temps were feasible and maximized the efficiency of the boiler . This boiler will quite probably only operate at around 88-89% efficiency .

    The 80 is probably alright until you put baseboard in the 700 sq ft area with only a fireplace now .  I suspect that the space heating pump is also too small for the installed radiation . 

    The 105 may be beneficial when you heat the extra space you have but w/o a proper rom by room heat loss we don't know anything for sure .  You can increase the storage capacity of any storage type vessel by increasing the temp in the tank and mixing down . I cannot tell you how many indirects I have installed of similar size that are dependably serving families of 4+.  I would not install a second vessel without addressing the pump issue , all that will accomplish is to increase the head and make the pump perform even worse .  

SWEI

Burnham Alpine

080 is the smallest model, with a minimum firing rate of 16k.  The 105 has a minimum firing rate of 21k.  Your installer is again demonstrating a lack of training and experience.  Do not upsize without a proper heat loss calculation.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

ok we will call them again now and demand a heat loss calc.  the manager I spoke to seemed to be confused when I asked if they performed one.  At this point, we are going to demand they pay for a consultant of our choice to come by with them since they clearly need some help. not sure how they will respond to this.  I can't learn how to do heating/plumbing anymore.  I demanded they put in a valve to slow down the water pressure and after much fighting, they have agreed to do that.  they said they will come with a Taco 010 pump with the 105 Alpine. 

Weezbo

am back ! *~//: )

ok Lets talk Plumbing.

when we do our work we to use formulas to determine things such as fixture units developed lengths, pipe sizing, pressure ,vacuum,restrictions , volume , types of fluid, condensate , "bar"ometric pressure , just to name a few ...

when we do our calculations , what we look for on the water side is similar to determining pipe size on the heating side ...

where i live the muni has fluxuations in flow from time to time and temp, and pressure.

for the most part we have 100 psi or more always available, though it can and often does go higher .

we have service laterals meaning we have two pipes that enter our homes not one ,

so we have "Latitude in up sizing to larger pipe should we need to without changing pipe size , we Can change pipe size on One lateral as well on the supply side one pipe size giving us even greater latitude and even higher fixture supply volume.

this means then that we must regulate down the supply water pressure for most homes ..as we have far more available pressure and volume than in large cities in the lower 48 states,

right now we have adopted the led free double check and the lead free pressure water regulators ,



.... most homes our pressure is regulated down to 50psi within the home ...

so this brings us back to the proper pipe sizing calculations,

being very important as the pipe size determines Volume ... because the Volume cannot be made to change the pressure can.

when a pressure reducing valve allows more pressure by you can expect to see that at the most remote fixture or at the kitchen sink the easiest , does the water try to knock a glass of water from your hand at the kitchen sink? then the pressure is too HIGH .

most of the new faucets have water savers and the bath tub /&or/showers have water savers and pressure balancers at them allowing for the valves to mostly be decreased on the cold water side to improve water delivery on the Hot.once again pipe sizing is part of the deal as developed length to the Hot water maker or water heater should be the most direct path from the source of water..



.... i see no domestic hot water recirculator for immediate hot water availability at your fixtures .this has meaning on the financial comfort level of owning your home not just simply convenience.When they are not needed ? well, that is when the developed length of the pipe is under a specific length or the pipe is connected in home runs often to either a central location or the plumbing pipe is connected to small manifold "T's at each bath room and the developed length is less than a specific length on the "Trunk" or main Hot water that is sized to both volume and pressure for this particular layout in this particular home.

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so this means , not all prv's are created equal . and things are done for a reason .



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the prvs are adjustable .



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your prv may indeed need to BE turned down to 50 psi . i did not do the install nor do i have my all amazing seeing eye in close proximity to make the determination how much ...



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if you have many bathrooms 4 , 5 , 6 , and a few half baths with a hot tub swimming pool indoor Olympic wave generator ,...i might believe you could have pipe sized for the home that is atypical (Larger than 3/4" at 50 P.S.I.) ...



this will allow for code requirements in a home with two bathrooms , one additional 3/4 bath and a half bath one laundry tub / an outside frost free hose bib ,kitchen sink and dishwasher and an ice maker for the fridge , in many cases the muni or city may allow additional fixtures to be added like another hose bib or hand sink with no fuss

on doing another calculation and re sizing pipe etc..



if you change the pressure on the prv you can test this with a lazy gauge at the laundry tub or outside hose bib , or at the cold water side of the washing machine box .



a lazy gauge shows the pressure .



so once again , a cheap 20$ gauge and a few turns of a screw or twists of a wrench ,



might have solved your problem right there ... or at least given you some indication if what they are telling you is Gospel ...



that Infra red gun , since i first bought one, has dropped to about a 1/5th of the price

it is in the 20 $ range now.. it is a great homeowner tool..



you can use it to make temperature determinations point it pull the trigger and the temp pops up on a screen .. Nice : )



ok so now you are armed with some new things to think about , can you call the water department and ask them for the reason the water pressure might be that high in a home ? might be better to have them come deal with it ...

Weezbo .













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Ironman

It's gonna get worse

Up-sizing to the 105k is only going to give you 3/4 gpm more domestic output. Does any one there know how to do simple math?



As pointed out several times by multiple posts, the 010 is NOT the right circ. It looses all flow at 9 ft. of head; the indirect coil has that much head. With the piping and other components, your around 12 ft. of head. 010 circ = 0 flow with your indirect. Is there any one at this company that can read a pump curve?



What part of MA are you in? There are several KNOWLEDGEABLE pros on here from MA who can do consulting. I'd recommend that you get one of them in before this contractor makes things worse instead of better. Maybe he could also help this contractor and the general public by getting them an education in hydronics.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

I believe they said we have 1/2 inch piping.  I can call the water department tomorrow and ask why the pressure is so high.  some of the other suggestions are hard for me to uderstand.  They are coming by tomorrow morning to do a heat loss calculation, but refuse to pay a 3rd party to come.  we are in Middlesex county.  we are not comfortable with them installing anything new, that is unless they show us some numbers from this heat loss calc and re-measure everything to prove that the 80 they sold us is wrong.  we are not excepting their answer that the 105 has more btu's and will give extra umph to the heat.  that sounds so uneducated.  better business bureau will be hearing from us about this.  when I said the 010 Taco pump, they were planning on brinigng this if they installed the 105 alpine, not the 80,  they still don't think the 007 is wrong for the 80.  tonight they have said that if it makes us feel better they will switch the pump first before installing the 105, but that it won't fix the problem.  they finally agreed to switch the piping at the bottom of the HTP and have it reversed.  so, I have seen some answers say the Taco 008 pump and most recently the 013 pump.  which shall I push for now? also, is there any type of chart of checklist I can have them fill out and give to us for the heat loss calculation?  they all seemed like they have never heard of this before, so we are nervous that the do not really know what it is.

SWEI

The 007 may not be wrong

but it also may be.  HTP has not been able to provide me with head loss curves for the SSU (despite several emails and phone calls over the past ten days.) 

Rich_49

Swei

some bad practice here huh ?  I spoke with Jason at HTP yesterday and explained exactly what we are dealing with on this one . In this particular installation we require a 0011 for the DHW , that could change if instead of discussing 105's and secondary tanks that will make the problem worse these guys would possibly read what we are saying to the homeowner .   Does moving the DHW piping inside the boiler loop and using the 0014 as Burnham recommends on page 65 0f the manual ?  I also believe that this system has pumping problems on the space heating side also and believe that a 00 VDT would correct that too . Can't speak to 008 ,0012 , 0013 because all I know is that there is 114 feet of installed radiation and possibly more in the future .  Could you agree that the fix may be as simple as these couple items ? Hell , at this point they could leave it piped as is and change the DHW pump to the 0011 and the heating pump to VDT and have it whipped . Storage temp in indirect at 160* and boiler making max for DHW. Not sure reset is even an option in this house , of course just guessing because no room by room was done .I don't understand why they did not just stay Burham and install the Alliance Sl  IWH or just use an HTP boiler , hell the Versa Hydro was made for this job , Pioneer with this IWH would have been stellar

Rich_49

Baseboardheahelp

do you have prints for this house ? how about a floor plan ?  Do you know the insulation R values in the exterior walls and ceilings to any space without heat above ?  What contractor performed this work ,   Sorry again for your dilemma .  It took us awhile to pinpoint all the mistakes from afar .  I will e mail you recommendations to hand to these gentlemen when they come if you are comfortable with that . Maybe the others would like to contribute to this final analysis so you can just hand it to them and enjoy Christmas and put this nonsense behind you .  If needed I do know of a few very talented guys up your way also .