Hot water baseboard heating

Ironman

5 GPM

That's a lot of hot water per minute for one fixture. You ran out after 27.5 gal.



Assuming that you started with a full tank of hot water, you'll usually get about 80% of the tank's storage capacity. That would be 36 gal. in your case (45x.8=36). Your boiler/indirect combination can recover 2.4 gpm if everything is set up correctly and the piping and circulator are correct. That means in the 5.5 minutes that it took to empty your tank of hot water, it should have produced an additional 13 gal.(5.5x2.4=13.2). Add to that the missing 8 gal. (36-27.5=8.5) and you come up short about 21 gal. from what your system's max capacity should be if everything's just right.



I see a few things from all the info that's been provided that may cause this:



1. The 007 circ is too small to transfer heat to the indirect quickly enough when water is being drawn from it, particularly when'll the tub is drawing @ 5 gpm. When there's no draw on the tank, the 007 will eventually satisfy the tank. This seems to be the issue that your installer can't grasp. It's not a matter of if the 007 will transfer enough heat, but of how long it takes. Change this to a 008 circ which will transfer the full capacity of the boiler (72k btu's, 2.4 gpm) to the indirect. The 2.4 gpm is the domestic draw, not what's going between the boiler and the indirect. We're looking for 7.3 gpm between them.

2. The hydronic (boiler side) supply and return lines are connected backwards at the indirect. This will cause a reduction in output. Has this been corrected since your photo?

3. The boiler control MUST be configured properly in order for the indirect to perform properly. This involves:

A) setting the control to give priority to domestic heating.

setting the control to run the BOILER and DHW circulators, but NOT the SYSTEM circulator during a domestic call.

C) setting the BOILER supply water temp to 180* during a domestic call.

D) setting the burner's rpm to maximum during a domestic call. This is the factory setting but it may have been changed.



4. Setting the aquastat on the indirect to at least 140* or more and using a thermostatic mixing valve to lower it down to 125* or less going out to the fixtures.

5. The final thing has already been mentioned: 5 gpm draw from your tub is more than twice the rate of what a modern energy saver diverter would use. Either install a new diverter or slow down the fill rate of your tub. In other words, throttled down your hot water faucet when filling your tub.



The most common combination of boiler and indirect that I install is a 85k btu mod/con boiler with a 28 gal. indirect. I never have complaints of running out of hot water, even with large families. The one exception being an old tub diverter filling at over 6 gpm.



If you and your installer will do what I've listed above, I believe you'll be satisfied with your system's performance. Remember, this is a new, efficient system and it should save you significantly in energy, but you can't expect it to perform exactly like the old energy hog that was there before.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

Thank you for the information Ironman.  I will print out those steps you listed and give them to the company that is coming back tomorrow, and it sounds like I need to insist they switch the 007 for the 008 pump.  they did come back last week and said they did some piping wrong and that it was reversed.  They spent an entire day correcting it.  I am guessing that this is what you noticed from the picture was reversed?  If it helps, I can take more pictures to show you.  How can I tell if the hydronic supply and return lines are connected backwards at the indirect?  I know this is a new energy efficient system, so it's not the same as the old one.  Are you saying that with this new system and the same bath tub, we can expect to have to slow down the hot water rate?  It's hard to hear that because I loved how the old boiler had extremely hot baths that never ran out, and filled up quick.  Why do you think we ran out of hot water at the kitchen sink while washing dishes?  We surly did not use 25 gallons then.  and I just timed the heat.  it went up 4 degrees in about an hour, then slowed down from there, and took about 30 minutes per degree to go up any further.  Is this what I should expect from the Alpine?  about a 4 degree set back, and beyond that, it will be slower?

Weezbo

info

Grundfos Comfort System Hot Water Recirculator System , UP15-10 SU7P TLC, 595916, Comfort Valve



Grundfos Comfort System - Hot Water Recirculation System The water circulation system that eliminates cold water runoff at the faucet using a bypass valve and pump with a timer to control water flow. Hot Water Recirculation - Special Features- The ultimate in convenience is having hot water instantly available at sinks, appliances and bathroom faucets. The elimination of time spent waiting is especially convenient in areas where the installation of low flow showerheads and faucets are required by law. Hot water recirculation improves the efficiency and effectiveness of household appliances including washing machines and dishwashers by having hot water available instantly. Users can save energy by setting the 24 hour programmable timer to make hot water available during peak demand times, such as early morning and in the evening. The recirculation pump can be installed by a certified contractor in two hours. For the average home, hot water recirculation systems generally cost a few hundred dollars, including parts and installation. A wet rotor design for whisper-quiet and maintenance-free operation. Stainless steel rotor cladding and canister construction, an exclusive UP 15 series feature, ensures corrosion-resistance and extended product durability. A low-watt, two-pole motor combined with low-flow performance ensures minimum water heater operating costs, pipe and water heater wear and energy consumption. Significant water (and sewer) disposal savings, retaining the 12,000 to 38,000 gallons of water a typical U.S. home wastes annually waiting for hot water. Some fast-growing counties are making the installation of hot water recirculation pumps mandatory for all new construction projects.

..........................

Well ,

here is another concept that might decrease your ownership costs , enhance their product , ....

There are other manufacturers of domestic recirc systems ...

.... you realize that , one side of this is the ladds who installed this have to make a living as well, by now , they have paid a great deal of penance for this already , if you share the info , they would know in their minds that what we are saying is true . That would help them and your community .



*~//: )

Ironman

Answers

If you'll look at your pics of the indirect, the larger copper lines that connect near the bottom of the tank are backwards. Did they change that?



Your old boiler probably had a much larger burner and was way over-sized. If it had a tankless coil in it to heat domestic, it stayed at 160-180* constantly whether there was any demand or not. It had to do this to be able to heat domestic water "on demand" since you had no storage tank. This means that it was terribly inefficient and constantly loosing heat up the chimney. Yes it gave quick results, but with a very hefty and unnecessary price attached.



Your New boiler only fires when there's a call for heating whether it's space heating or domestic. When it does space heating, it calculates the water temperature necessary to maintain the house based on outdoor temperature. The colder it gets outside, the higher it will raise its water temp, and vise versa. So, it may only be sending 140* water to your radiators on a milder day because that's all that needed, unless you set your thermostat back. Then it has to play catch up instead of keep up. That's what the boost feature is for. It's kinda like a runner that's behind at the end of a long race: he has to exert more energy to catch up. The boost feature temporarily raises the targeted water temp to catch up.



Maintaining boiler supply temp based upon outdoor temp is called outdoor reset. It greatly saves energy and increases comfort in the house - if the thermostat is left at one temp. Setting the thermostat back and up again is counter-productive to what the outdoor reset is trying to accomplish. Your boiler also modulates it's firing rate from 20 to 100%. The lower the firing rate, the more efficient it is. Using setback will cause the boiler to go into high fire in order to try to catch up. That means less efficiency.



Again, you're also now storing water in your indirect rather that heating it instantaneously as it passes through a coil in a hot boiler. As I stated previously, with an output of 72k btu's, your boiler will heat up the cold water going into the indirect at a rate of about 2.4 gpm. That's if everything in your system is right. Add to that the water that's stored in the tank already and you should get plenty of hot water; you just can't draw it off so fast.



6 gpm is enough hot water for three showers simultaneously with energy saver faucets; your pulling almost that much through one tub which is not necessary. Slow it down a little. A sink faucet, particularly a laundry sink, can also draw off hot water at a high rate if it's not an energy saver. Do the bucket test on that also.



Again, you're not making hot water instantaneously. Your making it at 2.4 gpm and storing it. That means if you just exhausted all the hot water in the tank by filling the tub, it's gonna take about 20 minutes to replenish the tank. If you try to run another fixture before then, you're gonna come up short.



I have a 50 gal. gas water heater that has a 42k btu burner. When I'm not firing my outdoor wood boiler, it has to carry all of the domestic load alone. I still have three daughters plus a teen age son and my wife and my self at home. The gas water heater does fine under those circumstances if we stagger our showers by about twenty minutes. You have more capacity than that with 45 gal. And a 72k btu burner.



I have a diesel pick up truck that produces 435+ horsepower and will blow the doors off of most anything on the road. Even with a load on it. But it gets about 16 mpg. My wife loves driving it, but my wallet is much happier when she's driving her 100 horsepower Honda Civic and getting 32 mpg.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

thanks for the answers.  I'm not exactly sure what they changed, but it took them a full 8 hours to do so.  I've attached new pictures of the system, as well as the Taco.  Do the copper lines appear to be corrected or no?

PLUMMER

Manufacturer specs specs specs,,,,,, manuals are only useless in the wrong language

Just asking a theory question, but does anyone else think think by me using the smaller IDWH 30 gal or smaller that it recovers quicker because of less mass to heat up. Regardless of boiler sizer.



I personally pipe almost all of my IDWH with 1.25" copper and a 0010 pump. I do this to help take the head loss calls out of the equation, even tho manufacturer specs 1" copper. I also try to do a layout where piping is kept to a minimum and still is service functional and esthetic. I have seen many piped with 3/4" because "that's what the connections are" excuse. That tells me right there they've never been to a training seminar for anyone's products.

I just read the specs for the SSU45 and it states at 5gpm flow he should see a minimum of 70 gal initial dump with 180 supply @ 10gpm pump flow, which a 008 I believe would struggle to do with the current piping. I see no one has mentioned (unless I missed it) or calculated the HL for (what appears to be 1" S&R) the IDWH piping alone plus the coil. It roughly appears to be another 11-13' of head at the recommended 10gpm flow for the piping alone.

I think the HO should gather his info and contact HTP and get an engineered drawing or statement, since it appears the plumber is having a hard time understanding the HO's needs and concerns correctly. Unfortunately these are the calls I get far too often with these same products. And it can be difficult to explain to a type A personality that good workmanship doesn't always mean good or proper performance. To get around this , I go direct and get an engineers approved piping plan. There are many out there that will do this for free, especially the seller or manufacturer rep. HTP local rep goes well out of their way for me. Then I provide the HO with the most accurate knowledge and paperwork. Hard for any turd bender to argue with, if he has any class.

The next option would be a full review online with documentation of the installer. I'm guessing he is not a certified installer for anyone's radiant product line or we wouldn't be 40 posts in by now.

PLUMMER

Wait, is that 007 still in there?

0015 wow for a primary pump. Is that 007 still in there, and with the internal flow check. .???

Did they do a test to see the total HW Gallons or a dump load test. It appears it should take all of 7-9 minutes to determine. I'm sorry you are having trouble. I think you need to look up this energy plan and the contractor. Also check to see if he is listed with HTP or the boiler manufacturer.

Yes the piping looks good but why use black iron at all with a SS boiler and the rest of the nice equipment they installed. I still prefer a loop on the secondary. The mixing valve might give you a few more gals but your still missing the boat. The 007 is only gonna flow a couple gals at best , maybe a gal with the F5 internal check.



Can't see it, but it looks like they didn't change the S&R piping on the HTP. Still backwards, which is clearly stated on page 12 of the manual.

Ironman

Can't Tell

I honestly can't tell from these pics, because I cannot trace the piping all the way.



In the 2nd pic of your previous set, you will notice directly under the "HTP" label there are two lines connected at the bottom of the tank. They are backwards. The supply should be at the top and return on the bottom. If you trace the bottom line back towards the boiler, you will see that it connects to the circulator. The circ should be pumping towards the indirect making it the supply line. That line should be the top connection on the tank, not the bottom.



Comparing that photo to what you have now will tell you if they changed it.



Again, the proper path would be that the upper connection at the bottom of the tank connects back to the green circ on the vertical line above the boiler. That circ has an arrow on the side of its casting: it should be pointing up.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

I wish I knew more about these things...I'm not sure what the circulator looks like.  On the HTP, below that, I see the 2 lines.  The bottom of the 2 lines below the HTP connects to the green Taco 007.  Is this what you are referring to Ironman?  Let me know if I am completely looking at this wrong.  If you click my pictures they should enlarge.

Mark Eatherton

Nature of the beast...

As numerous people have already posted, the DHW is "theoretically" capable of delivering a substantial amount of hot water per hour (first hour after having been fully charged) with all "conditions" being ideal. I have two of those tanks up at my mountain home, and I don't use the factory provided aquastat well for the following reason.



During normal intermittent draws, the lower half of the tank becomes completely saturated with cold water. By the time the quastat does finally get cold enough to call for the boiler, it's already half out of DHW, and if the boiler is cold, then you end up with a WHOLE bunch of cold equipment heating itself up to get to the point that it is at a "steady state" of operation. Tis the nature of the beast, and I suspect that the engineers who designed it knew exactly what it was that they were doing. By having the coil completely immersed in cold water, it significantly affects the recovery numbers. But in real life, it CAN cause a shortage of DHW. I put my own aquastat wells in the bottom of the tank, and yes, it does have a tendency to short cycle, but I don;t run out of hot water, and my heat source is only 50K btuH (operating at 8,000' ASL, so it is actually less than that) and it works just great.



Now, if it were a reverse indirect, it's heat transfer capacity is SIGNIFICANTLY larger due to the significantly increased surface area of the RI.



One way of overcoming the HTP tanks high aquastat location might be t install a destrat pump to keep the tank mixed up better, thereby reflecting the consumption of hot water, and allowing the tank to react sooner. Expect short cycling, but great regular capacity. I think maybe turning the tank set point higher will help alleviate the shortages, but they STILL might occur under certain use patterns.



Also, I have experienced a number of issues with the Honeywell aquastat that comes standard on the tanks. Sloppy set point and differential, compounding the DHW shortage issues.



Lastly, the control that comes on the Lochinvar boiler, if properly applied WILL stand on its head and spit wooden nickels. In the hands of an untrained technician, they can be a disaster, but what piece of equipment ISN'T a disaster in the wrong hands….



There is a feature on these boilers that can be programmed to BOOST the supply temperature, thereby overriding the ODR program if the call for heat is sustained. I use it on my mountain home, and it makes all the difference (pun intended) in the world.



If I were the homeowner, I'd ask the installer to request a visit by the boilers manufacturers representative. These guys know their stuff, and it is probably just a mis-applied control parameter that is causing the majority of this consumers problems.



ME

PLUMMER

Circulator = Taco pump

Yes the circulator is the taco pump. In hydronics they actually don't pump water. They create a pressure differential on each side of the "pump". The pressure differentials always try to equalize, thus the water moves to balance, or circulates. I hope I explained that good.



Anyways, in the HTP manual it states the top port is connected to the outlet of the taco circulator, then the inlet of the taco connects to the boiler hot supply. The bottom port on the tank connects to the boiler return. In almost these exact words. There is also a head loss chart for the piping and the tank itself, then a recommended GPM flow rate and what you will make for hot water at both 180 & 200 degree supply temps. It can all be calculated out pretty accurately in just a few minutes. Then a quick look at Tacos site and how to's on selecting a proper pump.

Weezbo

ok a little help...

zoom around to the side of your HTP tank now and try to get a picture of the gauge that is way up at the ceiling level ...if you follow that down it connects to your shiney silver gizmo with the bright green dial.



then , after that pic ,one from a step back or so because i tend to see another minor technicality known as neglected aspect , in the potable water piping it is no big deal ,

it is just these two pictures would enable more than one person to reply intelligently to the hot water issue ...

*~//: )



Mark , it is hard to communicate with me i have no doubt , i noticed peoples eyes glazing over a few years back so then i wondered if it was because i had been using words and terms they normally do not encounter ...

let me run an interpretation of one line of what you just said ...



Mark said , The heating issue has yet to be explored properly.



Ok , good to see you : )



he he .. Congrats to RPA is in order for recognizing your Right Effort in The Work.

*~//: )

Ironman

Yes

If the circ is piped to the bottom connection, then it's still backwards. It should connect to the upper one.

Enlarging your most recent pics still doesn't show all of the piping to me.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

ok, I double checked, and under the HTP words, the bottom of the 2 pipes is connected to the Taco, and the top is connected to an Amtrol water heater expansion tank model ST-5.  So are you saying these are still reversed?? they are coming this morning, and we insisted they bring a supervisor this time.  I attached more pictures like requested.  I think you maybe can see the piping a bit better.  It is hard to get good pictures in the basement.  let me know what you think.  They should be here soon and I have printed out all the attached charts and directions you guys posted to give to them.  

Ironman

Yeah

It's backwards. Your second pics shows it clearly. I'm referring to the two connections directly below the "HTP" label.



If you can't get them to correct the problems today, then I recommend that you follow Mark's advice and insist that they get a factory rep out there.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

ok thanks for your help.  this is so shocking that a large company made this many mistakes.  Should I just show them the piping on the HTP and tell them it is backwards, or is there some type of term I should use so they better understand me.

Ironman

Not Shocking at All

The larger the company, the more difficult to maintain quality control. Most of the pros on here have one to four man shops for this very reason. They want to maintain a high level of quality.



Your guys workmanship is good, but they're lacking in technical knowledge. Like most folks, when confronted with their errors, they've become defensive rather than swallow their pride and seek the truth. The reason that the pros here have the level of knowledge they do is not because they're necessarily smarter or just because of experience. It's because they have a desire to know. That will drive a man to find the truth. Most folks are waiting for someone to drop it in their lap. But, I digress.



Just tell them. The tank should be labeled or they can look in the manual.



Let us know how it goes.

Steamfitter66

The term is

Your guy piped the Indirect WH boiler piping backwards. You should also ask for the startup checklist and combustion analyzer report.

I still think the don't have the control parameters set correctly. They should be able to go through those with you at the boiler in 10 minutes or so.

Weezbo

ok well, you have a mixed tempered blend going out,

while i cannot see the numbers exactly that dial is a read , and it appears to be set around 120 F .



so thats plenty hot . and allows some bounce for the hot water in the tank ,



if it says 100 , you can turn it higher by taking the green cap off the valve , it has a Delta Key or a triangular shaped key tooled into that which fits the valve adjustment underneath the cap .



it has a direction arrow scribed into the metal for hotter water or cooler ..



letting some water out in a sink or tub slowly will allow flow and you can change it to the slightly higher setting if it does not read 120.



we often start there then take a water temp at every sink , and tub in the house and we are looking for a magic # of 111 F . at the tubs.



so, they have indeed tried to do this and it will help them in the future just in wasted time while trouble shooting and making a better product.



this is a plus for both you and them ,now.



both of you helped each other . That , over time sets a positive energy into motion .



That is a good thing.



Weezbo.

*~//: )

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

so I made my case that the Taco pump is wrong, and they refused to put in a new one, saying that the 007 is plenty good enough because we have a 2 story house, and a 3 story house would need the 010.  he agreed that the manual calls for the 010, but would not swap the pump.  he also would not change the copper piping on the HSP, saying that since there is a coil in it, it does not matter that it is reversed.  he believes the heat works fine, but admitted that the hot water is not working properly.  It is not heating up water fast enough, and he tested the bath tub by sowing down the water flow, and it ran out at about 80% again in 13 minutes.  He is coming back yet again, but this time we insisted he come with an Alpine rep.

Steamfitter66

This guy has no real understanding of hydronics.

The pump is in a closed system and building height has zero impact. Hopefully your rep has a better understanding of hydronics. You need the 0010 because of the water heaters internal friction loss.

This is typical for most HVAC or plumbing co. Good workmanship but they lack technical knowledge.

knotgrumpy

Oh boy

"So I made my case that the Taco pump is wrong, and they refused to put in a new one, saying that the 007 is plenty good enough because we have a 2 story house, and a 3 story house would need the 010." 



There's your problem.  He hasn't a clue.  The circulator on the indirect doesn't care if the house is 200 stories, because it just pumps through the coil in the tank.

Ironman

You Can't Fix Stupid

This guy is living proof of that.

PLUMMER

Very,very sorry

You have to go thru this. Some great posts here right on the money. Speaking of money, it sounds like the only thing this stubborn contractor will understand is non payment. Unfortunately you've exhausted all polite and technical attempts to correct the issue. There is nothing you can do with this guy , when he admits its wrong but REFUSES to correct.

This is where a nice public review and or contact with the source that recommended him should be informed. I mean the whole idea is to be. More efficient, this doesn't mean just purchasing HE equipment, but making it work as designed. Here in Michigan you have to have training certs for all employees not just the BO to be listed in the installer program. Even tho there still are a few that might get by.

Me personally, I would call your local inspector and see what input they might have. I mean they don't always catch everything and a resident asking for help might get more action. We have to follow manufacturers install methods and in your case pipe size, connection , and pump selection would get flagged because it does not meet code by way of not meeting the specs properly. It has to meet both local and manufacturers.



By the way there used to be a great site that had lots of near boiler piping and example pics. With good explanation in lay men's terms for everyone to understand. It used HTP products in many examples and burnham.

Good luck, I think a REP and inspector would be my next guy on site.

Ironman

Rep

Though requesting a rep on site is a good idea which I and others have suggested, be aware of on caveat: the contractor is his customer, not you.



If he sees something wrong, he can talk to the contractor privately and ask him to correct it, but he's not going to rebuke him in front of you or take your side. Not if he's ethical. And, if he's a Burnham rep, he may or may not say anything about the proper installation of an HTP product.



The inspector, on the other hand, has legal authority to enforce the code. To what degree your state's code addresses proper design and selection of system components like the circ in question, I do not know. Also, how savvy the inspector is will be a factor.



You don't have to know anything technical. All you have to do is insist that your system is not performing properly and let the rep and inspector know that the contractor admitted there are errors in the installation but refused to correct them.



Make sure you have the installation manuals for both products so the inspector can see what the manufacturer calls for. Particularly, the HTP manual and have the pertinent pages marked.



I will add one other point, though you might be careful about mentioning it to the inspector: the pump curves from Taco clearly indicate that the 008 is the correct choice, not the 010. But apparently the HTP manual calls for the 010. I don't know why they do this because the 008 is a medium "head" pump and the 010 is a low "head" pump. The 010 can only overcome 8 ft. of head (resistance to flow) @ 1 gpm. The 008 can give you 7.3 gpm @ 11.1 ft. of head. Though the indirect may be listed to take an 015, that would assume a larger boiler than yours is connected. It makes no sense to install a pump that will not match the capacity of the boiler AND the flow requirements of the indirect. The 008 wil do this perfectly, the 007 falls way short @ 2 gpm. The height of the house has absolutely no bearing upon this.



The inspector may or may not understand this, the rep should.



Let me add one other thing: when we use the term "rep" we are referring to a factory rep that has extensive technical knowledge of Burnham's products and hydronics, not his local sales rep, though he may be knowledgeable.



You may also want to contact Nation Grid and make your case to them. The threat of being removed from their approved contractor list may motivate this one to correct your system.



Also, have you tried talking to the owner or manager of this company? Many times, they may be unaware or mis-informed about what's going on. Getting them there on site may get your problem resolved. I'd try that before going to outside authorities.

Weezbo

this is a chart ,

http://www.htproducts.com/superstorultrarange.html



Look at the chart.



does it act anything like the numbers you read by doing the bucket test?



If we can put hot water in all the tubs and sinks in a home and run them overly full so that water runs down the overflows... and test the temp at each fixture at that time ,on a new home... how can it be that your system does not?



what is it of a Magical nature that excludes your system from doing that Eh?



lets discuss the heat again ... this intrigues me even more ...



i am not sold on that entirely .



i am big on seeing things like the guys from Missouri .



Weezbo.



even if everyone else thinks it sounds ok , i like to learn just like the next guy...



the chart says 212 gallons an hour @ 140 WITH THE BOILER STEADY PRODUCING 180 f

292 GALLONS AN HOUR @ 115 F with the boiler steady producing 180F for an ssu-45



reading the chart for a residential indirect heat exchanger an ssu -30 pumps out 154 gallons an hour @ 140 and 212 gallons an hour at 115F .... at a Pressure drop of 6 ft .head...



this is why i say that the temp gauges are something that helps me the dummy understand what is what.



so lets just do the math for a moment ..



we will use the 27 gallons in 20 mins = 3 X 27 = 81 gallons

or " " " 27 " " 15 mins = 4 X 27 = 108 gallons an hour for the first hour .



choose either . i will go with the first one because i have no idea whatsoever how long this "Wait for it to come back up" , took ...



81 + 81 = 162 gallons ... that is 2 X 81 . even the 30 out preforms that at 140F



for the 45 with a mixer , at 115F on your potable water ...





292 gallons an hour / 81 gallons = over three times as much in the first hour .



ok say the number s were a pack of lies lol and This Plummer guy and i are just really really lucky , it has nothing to do with either of us thinking these things out ,



what do you think the variables are ?

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

hopefully the Alpine rep will know what's going on.  We do have the instalation books for both the Alpine and HTP.  The local inspector did come by when it was first installed and approved it, as did National Grid, but if they can't get it right tomorrow, we will give them both a call.

I'm not sure how to read the chart you provided.  All I know is that they tested the hot water in the bathtub, and it ran out at 80% full, and they then waited for the hot water tank to fully recover, and again, tried to fill the tub again with hot water but slowing down the flow, and it ran out at 13 minutes.  He just said the hot water is not producing fast enough.

Will changing the pipe direction on the HTP solve this problem?  He would not change it because he said since there is a coil, the direction does not matter.  and the pump he refuses to believe is incorrect, so hopefully the Alpine rep can help him with this.  They are coming by tomorrow.  We have missed sooo many days of work to be home for this I'm really hoping it ends tomorrow.

Ironman

Changes

I can't say how much difference changing the piping will make. It's obviously wrong and why would HTP label it if it didn't matter which way they went?

Your contractor doesn't understand basic hydronics or heat transfer. The supply is obviously the hotter line. It should meet the hotter water in the tank which is closer to the top. The return is the cooler line. It should meet the cooler water at the bottom of the tank.



Changing the pump should make the greatest difference since a properly sized pump will transfer heat from the boiler to the indirect more quickly.



As far as him not believing the circ is wrong, I've already said: "You can't fix stupid".

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

so the plumber said to my husband that head feet is the altitude for how high the pipes go, and that for our house, the 007 would be able to pump over 20 gallons per minute, and this would be sufficient.  Is there a way for me to explain that this is wrong or not sufficient in a manner that I can understand and relay to him again?  He also said that the HTP manuel is removing the input/output label on the HTP because he said since there is a coil, that it does not matter.  Does this make any sense, or does it sound all wrong?  I was not around for this explanation as I had to go out for a bit, but this is what he explained to my husband. They are bringing an Alpine rep tomorrow, and if they discover it is not the Alpine that has the issue, then they said they will come back another day with an HTP rep.

Weezbo

feet of head .

is the resistance the circulator over comes.



if i choke the pipe size down to 1/16th of an inch and move the indirect 7 miles away the pump 6 feet lower than it is right now and the indirect 600 feet down the hill and around the bend and down in a ravine ...with a 300 hp Hydraulic pump might not be able to over come Head.

pipe fittings , length of pipe , are part of a resistance load.



if he looks in an electrical diagram and sees resistance and 400 feet of wire to get there there will be voltage drop .



even if the resistance is removed from the picture , there will still be voltage drop.



if he looks in a plumbing code book and has water 200 feet from the source there will be resistance . every fitting part and piece on that 200 feet offer resistance .



so , sometimes the supply pressure needs to be turned higher to overcome that .



the bigger the pipe the more volume . the more volume the less resistance to flow.



so, if the resistance is to be overcome there is the way to lower resistance .

now if i have a pump that is stronger headed in the opposite direction it becomes a battle of which is stronger of the two.



if the pump that i have cannot overcome the resistance created by the other pump ,

it will be beaten down into submission ... and water will flow the opposite direction ...



lets discuss the heat ...i am not satisfied that is correct .

Rich_49

The old elevation misconception

rears it's ugly head once again .  Imagine that , I wish you could see me right now , this is my shocked face .  The following may be a bit technical but maybe you could print this out and transfer ownership of this post to this Genius .

  The following is the definition of head , Your heating guy is only one third right .

Ready , We're off.   Fluid in a hydronic system contains both thermal and mechanical energy .Thermal energy content depends on temperature and specific heat , thermal energy is something that can be sensed , feel your pipes .  Hot water contains more thermal energy than colder return water .

  Now to the fun part . Head is the mechanical energy present in the same fluid which depends on 4 things , Pressure , density , elevation and velocity at some point in the system .  Pressure head is the mechanical energy because of pressure . Velocity head is the mechanical energy because of it's velocity . elevation head is the mechanical energy due to the height in the system . Total head is the sum of pressure , velocity , elevation heads .   The equation goes something like this .   Total head  equals the sum of these .   Ask your plumber or heating man than why 100' of 3/4" pex at 10 GPM with 180* fluid in it laying flat has a head of 47.56 feet but if the fluid was only 100* the head would be 53.38 feet head  .   You see height is only part of the equation .  2 different pipes with different temp fluid , different heads

A circulator is a device that imparts the mechanical energy needed to drive the fluid at a certain velocity .  The colder the water the more dense it is requiring more energy to be added to overcome the energy lost through a portion of the system .  When pipes get larger they cut down the head feet also . 

Rich_49

How does

that keep happening Weezbo?  Was me typing slow this time .

Weezbo

i liken it to Froggy fingers

mah typing skills are like dreadful. i hit a key , and mah finger stays stuck there and i have more vvv's than i thoughttttttt : ))



i not to sure ...



*~//: )



basically , our effort in The Work give at least two ways to say the same thing that might be the best part of it ,



We are probably not quite as put off by the deal as Iron man that poor guy lol...i KNOW exactly what he is saying : )))



he would have fired that guy ten times by lunch time and still tried to get thru to him...



*~//: )

Weezbo

lets consider another set of numbers ,

lets think

it took 20 mins to recharge,



2 X 27 = 54 gallons an hour for the first hour at 115 F ,

The chart reads 292 ,



that is 240 gallons an hour that somehow vanished off the radar .



it could be a number of reasons , one the boiler has some quantity of glycol in it ,



another reason might be because the boiler cannot sustain that actual ideal180F



another may be that the incoming water is said to be 50 and or higher buh in actuality it is 36 F ,

or some number 34 F

there is also the issue from time to time of potable water quality itself

that can carry minerals or materials that for whatever reason ,

cling to the heat coil/s

and reduce the ability of the exchanger to keep up over time as it forms an insulative barrier on the coil...



it may have something to do with a rough approximation that the average useage is say 20 gallons of hot water a day per useage

and these numbers on the chart

only "Work' when the incoming potable water temp is 70 degrees with a boiler/heat source with water "supplying a constant and unvarying 180 F piped with the right size circulator , to the correct opening , with the pipe sized to deliver the least resistance insulated against transmission heat loss ,....



it may be that some or all of the above are true ,

did you see the formula that Ironman gave for what is occuring as you use water and when it runs out ,and what the pick up time is after the draw down ?



that is a form of back engineering as it were ,

it is what might be called a mathematical formula for

the actual over the theoretical ...



or effectiveness of the conglomeration of parts pieces and variables .



this is honestly why the gauges make thinking things through much easier and less time consuming .



especially for some one as dense as me . in some systems i even put pressure ports for differential gauges on both sides of a circ , i am just that thick headed. i want to be able to see the temp of the return and the supply and know what the pump is "Up against" ..i hope that helps i honestly do. there is the thought out there that you cannot get perfectly accurate readings across circs so , "why bother ?"

my thought is,

' try it . you might like it...'

*~//: )

Ironman

Feet of Head

That's the technical term used to refer to the RESISTANCE to flow that a circulator must overcome.



There are different types of "head" depending upon the type of system - open or closed.



In an OPEN system, such as a potable water faucet 3 stories up, the pump must overcome the STATIC head of lifting the water upward against the force of gravity. For every psi ( pound per square inch) that the pump supplies, the water will be lifted 2.31feet. This is where the term feet of head comes from. However, in an open loop, the pump also has to overcome whatever resistance the piping offers. This is called FRICTION head aka HYDRAULIC RESISTANCE. Both of these factors must added together to calculate the TOTAL or DYNAMIC head. STATIC head + FRICTION head = TOTAL or DYNAMIC head.



In a CLOSED loop, like your hydronic system, there is no STATIC head to overcome since what goes up is canceled out by what comes down. It's like a Ferris wheel. Think of forming a clear house into a U shape that's 5 feet high on both sides. Now, pour water into one side and it will settle at an equal height on the other side. If you have 4 feet of water on one side, you'll have 4 feet on the other. The static head is the same on both sides. This is the way it is in your hydronic system. The pump sees no STATIC head. It does however see the FRICTION head of the system which is the resistance to flow that everything in the piping circuit produces. The height of the piping has nothing to do with this. The more flow ( gpm) that's forced through the piping, the higher that the FRICTION head will be. In a CLOSED loop system, there is only FRICTION head. Therefore, the FRICTION head is equal to the DYNAMIC or TOTAL head.



When you look at a pump performance curve chart, you'll notice that it has feet of head on the left side ascending vertically and gpm on the bottom progressing horizontally. Through system design calculations, we determine how many feet of head the piping circuit has and how many gpm we need. We then go to the chart and determine which pump will best match our needs.



It has nothing to do with how many floors of a structure are built above our circuit or our own little notion that we've always done it like this. It's all scientific facts.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

the Alpine rep came with 2 plumbers, one a supervisor, and said everything is functioning in the burner the way it is supposed to and the start up test went fine, but that the hot water can not be made fast enough.  They all said they have never seen this problem before, and called HTP and confirmed everything is right with the HTP, so they are discussing what to do.  They agree something is wrong.  We ran out of hot water in 6.5 minutes.  Alpine rep said it is possible we need to get a 105 Alpine instead of the 80 and it is a tight fit, but they would discuss it and call us back.  but then he also said that there would not be much of a difference with the 105, and the 150 is too big.  The Alpine rep also said that the 007 was plenty fine, and I pointed out that the manual said otherwise, and he said that was not the problem.  I am not winning the argument of needing a new pump and reversing the pipes on the bottom of the HTP.  They keep shutting those ideas down.  I have shown them the chart as well.  They said our water pressue is very high and this is unusual.  I will wait until they call us to see if they will be swaping out our burner, and if they are not doing that, then it's time for the town inspector and national grid to get involved.  They are very apologetic and promise that they will get it resolved.  they have reversed the piping on the HTP, the piping on the burner, and the zones at the initial install, and they are aware we aren't going to let this go on much longer.  they seem to think that this is a highly unusua problem.  Alpine rep did say the heat is normal, and just confirmed to not set back more than 3 to 5 degrees ever, but no one could explain why we ran out of hot water while washing dishes in the kitchen sink.

Weezbo

say ,baseboard heating ,

when you say they changed the lines , the new plumbers ?

When you said the heating was changed , the new plumbers?

When you said the heating was Fine and everything is right ?

You ran out of Hot water in 6.5 mins so they told you something is wrong?



did the new plumbbers install any temp gauges on the supply and return of the boiler , HTP and the supply and return headers on the section after the secondary circ ,and on the individual zones returns?



*~//: )

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

I wouldn't call them new plumbers.  it was the same company who changed the piping, just some new plumbers came that time with the original ones who installed it.  today there were 2 new plumbers from the same company with the Alpine rep, but I am not aware of them installing anything today, and if they did, they did not make us aware of that.  I don't think they did any work today other that testing it out and checking the bath tub water, and they just concluded that everything is functioning the way it is supposed to, so they are not sure why the hot water is running out

Steamfitter66

a couple of gauges and a technician should be able to pin pioint the issue

I just dont get why they are so opposed to changing the pump. I'm sure the HTP rep will have them change the pump and reverse the piping.

Weezbo

check these out ....

http://www.flowmeters.com/



*~//: )

and Keller new style digital readout pressure differential gauges ....:)