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Hot water baseboard heating

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  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I did post the heat loss calcs.  they did the heat loss calcs for all rooms in the house with baseboard, but not the room with the gas fireplace or the basement room since they do not have baseboard.  I will see what I can do about getting this done
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    Not Included?

    They should have been included in the heat loss calcs since those areas contribute to the heat loss of the structure.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I just checked again and the room was definitely not included in the heat loss calc. all other rooms were done but this one, and the basement room
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Unseated room

    How do you get to this unseated room through French doors on the main floor, or second floor?.



    I thought you described it of the main floor many, many posts ago?
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    this room is on the main floor, and there are french doors to it
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    To understand

    The garage is basement level with the unheated bonus room above which is entered through the main level.



    Is the rest of the basement below grade, or partially exposed...............Im going somewhere with this..............I think.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    yes the garage and basement are the same level.  the garage is above ground, basement partially above with a walk out, and the large room sits on top of the garage on the main level of the home.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited January 2014
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    Conditioned basement space?

    Is it heated?

    I'm guessing not.

    If it is conditioned, or not what temp is it down there usually?
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    no both the garage and basement are unheated.  I don't know the temperature down there, but it is cold since it is unheated.the basement is a little warmer than the garage, probably due to it being under the kitchen, partially under/above ground, and having the heating equipment in it.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited February 2014
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    Don't know

    What anyone else thinks but an unconditioned daylight basement is probably adding extra load to the main floor.



    Wondering how the main level floor detail inputs were done on the heat loss.



    Is there insulation in the floor between basement, and main floor?



    Does the basement foot print match the main floor foot print?



    I'm thinking the heat load calc may be a little off. The boiler is probably still big enough, but it changes things with emitters being big enough.



    Maybe I'm all wet on this thought hard to say with out knowing basement temps. The old boiler probably warmed the basement considerably more than your new one though.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
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    Gordy

    might have found something pretty large .  Most guys I have encountered don't enter floor values when the system is not a radiant floor system . There can be quite a bit of downward loss .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    there is insulation in the basement walls, and 1/2 of the basement is finished so I do not know if there is insulation in the ceiling on the finished section. there is no insulation in the rest of the ceiling in the basement.  there is a wood burning stove in the basement, and I'm gussing it may be against fire code to have insulation in the ceiling due to this??  are you suggesting we need more baseboard due to the basement being unheated?  the old boiler was cast iron so I'm sure it did heat the basement more
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited February 2014
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    If the heat load calc

    Did not account for the floor being over an unseated space.....maybe.



    What are the temps down there is a big question....50's 60's.



    This maybe a case of unintended consequences. That being the basement temps may be much lower now than before with the new boiler. This may be something that unintentionally got missed in the load calcs.



    Just throwing an example out there so you understand. In my particular load calc changing the living dining area floor input to an unconditioned space with out floor insulation jacks the load up by 6000 btus. This is with a -10 design day the room size is 15 x34.



    Your design temp is not as low I think so it may not be as,adverse as my example.

    If your main floor had a space below that may have been upper 60's verses now being Lowe 60's or upper 50's that changes the load on the main floor.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I don't know the temp in the basement, but we would estimate in th 40's.  the basement is not as large as the main living area because the dining room was an addtion.  without taking measurements, I would esitamte the basement is about 34 by 24.  knowing all this, are you suggesting we need more baseboard?  and what about having the alpine 80 be able to support adding basement in the unheated 24 by 28 bonus room?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    There is an old saying

    Doctors have it easier than Veterinarians because Vets can't ask their patients questions...... Feeling a little of both with this thread.



    You have your infra red thermometer let's use it!



    If your basement is indeed in the 40's which I find hard to believe.....maybe. It is adding additional load to what ever heated space is above it, also any heating pipes in this space that are not insulated are losing the btus they are trying to deliver. Either you insulate the floor to keep the space above from the additional load, or you condition that space.



    Now I'm shooting from the hip with this layout of basement verses main floor verses second floor. Heated space verses unheated spaces sounding all hodgepodge to me.



    If you can picture this any time there is an unheated space adjoining a heated space it adds additional load to the heated space it's called a cold partition in a heat loss program input. If that cold partition is not insulated the load goes up to the heated room be it a wall, floor, or ceiling.



    This is starting to make a little sense if my assumptions are correct. Your main floor is struggling with the load be it coming out of set back, or a cold snap. Because what's below, and next to it are adding load that may not have been compensated for in the heat loss program, or in the amount of baseboard to heat the space as is.



    The unknown is the actual heat loss program math that was done so this is all speculation.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    the basement is definitly in the 40's, as is our large room above the garage.  that large room is tyically 48 degrees when the fireplace is not on.  of course the temp changes depending on the outdoor temp.  the IR gun has the basement at various spots between 43 and 47 degrees.  and it is in the mid 40's out today.  it's cold down there.  so, can this new alpine 80 support baseboard in the large room, as well as in teh basement?  are you suggesting we heat the basement?  I do not know if we can have insultation put into the ceilings of the basement.  we had a plumber come to take a look at our basement due to the waterline freezing in the fridge, and he thought that due to the fire code, we could not put insulation in the ceiling with a wood burning stove down there.  occassionally, we have used this wood burning stove on very cold nights to ensure the water line does not freeze again.  sounds like the heat loss was not done properly.  the heating company contracted out for someone to come and do the heat loss
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    You have bigger issues

    In my opinion than that boiler, which brings us to the boilers output which now the output rating gets dropped down to the IBR rating of 63000, and not the DOE of 73000 because it is in an unconditioned space.





    I think you need to get some heat in the basement, and that bonus room. You need to do the heat loss calcs like ironman pointed out earlier. Is your water service down in that part of the basement?



    Once you do that you will know if the boiler is big enough. If the area where the boiler is is reasonably conditioned you can go back to the 73000 doe rating.



    The floor above must be like walking on a block of ice bare foot!
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    Using the NET rating

    also assumes the boiler is not cycling on and off much, eliminating the need for a pickup factor.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    No Insulation Because of Wood Stove?? Code???

    I know that any type of legislation is possible in the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts, but no insulation because of a wood stove? Seriously?



    Is this code or was this plumber just another fountain of mis-information?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    not sure how good this plumer was, only used him once, and we are waiting for an insulation company to come by to get more information on this.  the water meter is in the basemen.  the floor is cold in some areas, but not in others.  maybe they put down insulation before putting down the flooring, but not in the ceiling of the basement?
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    500 posts

    .
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited February 2014
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    Condensed format

    Could actually be a learning tool for homeowners.



    First off detailed information is imperative for quick quality help with a problem.



    It's like taking a car to a mechanic, and saying the thingamabob is making a noise can you fix it?



    Insulation. Do it one time, and pay one time done.

    Heat loss calculation

    Emitter choice, and sizing

    Boiler choice, and sizing



    They all go hand in hand folks.



    And if you don't want to insulate setback is not going to cut it if comfort is top of the list.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    so the heating company should have taken into account the unheated basement I'm gathering.  and they did the heat loss calc wrong I guess.  they didn't get much right apparently.  is this alpine 80 ok given the basement is unheated.  insulation company has been called weeks ago to fix this problem, but again, due to having a fireplace in the basement, there is a concern to put insulation in the ceiling if the fireplace ever sparked.  the entire house is insulated to the max.  the basement ceiling just does not have any, but the walls do. we are hoping the alpine 80 is the right size for the house before we get stuck with it for good. 
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited February 2014
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    Not understanding

    The fireplace insulation problem at all. There are all kinds of ways to detail out a fireplace, or wood burner heated room with insulation......unless this wood burning fireplace is some kind of code violation.



    A question comes to mind reading your statements about insulation. Was the installer of the boiler under the impression the insulation was going to be done?
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    Pitiful

    Over 500 posts and nothing is getting solved because the ABC's keep getting jumbled. Start a new post, because that is where this one is anyway.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    no the installer has no idea that we want insulation done.  we had our fridge water line freeze several weeks ago, and this is when we realized that insultion needs to be put into th ceiling of the basement.  the installer measured our baseboard, then immediatly said based on our baseboard length, we need an alpine 80.  a heat loss calc was done 1 month after the boiler was put int
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Paul's right

    Now you are telling us the installer sized the boiler to the installed emitters, and Installed the 80. THEN did a heat loss calc?



    Start over. I'm dizzy
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    sorry if this has been confusing.  but yes, I've said that all along.  they sized our boiler to the baseboard, and never did a heat loss calc before installing the new system.  we learned what a heat loss calc was 1 month after we got the new boiler, and demanded one.  they said they do not do heat loss calcs unless putting in new baseboard or new construction, but agreed to do the heat loss calc anyways.  they contracted out for the heat loss calc, and the heat loss calc got done 1 month after the new boiler was put in.  also, the unheated basement was known this whole post as well since we have 2 zones, 1 upstairs, 1 downstairs on main floor, and boiler in the basement. 
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited February 2014
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    With over 500 posts

    You have some of the best hydronic heating minds in the country excluding myself helping you.



    All these little pieces of information get lost, or get harder to put together. The longer the thread gets the harder it becomes. The original problem was insufficient DHW, and tthings evolved from there. Trying to put together extracted information with offered information.



    So the offer to install the 105 came after the heat loss calculation from an outside source.



    And as far as the basement goes not many are in the 40's, upper 50's low 60's yes. I will add you could have a zone for the main floor with emitter in the basement off that particular zone.







    As far as I'm concerned your project needs to have a heat loss done of ALL spaces.

    Then an emitter check, and installation of proper amount of emitter sized to the load of each room. Then a boiler output that matches the load. Maybe the 80 is still big enough won't know with out the heat loss is done.



    The basement won't need ceiling insulation if you condition the space. If you don't then yes you need to insulate the floor. You have to decide.



    Anyone else?
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 211
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    Anyone else?

    Why, yes.



    Evidently the garage is somehow separated from the 'basement' even though they are on the same level.  The bonus room is above the garage.  I would doubt they will add an emitter in the garage, so, the ceiling in the garage portion of the basement will have to have insulation.



    Now there is an issue with water pipes freezing in the basement.



    There is a wood stove involved somehow.



    Miles back in this thread I think it was Rich that had a contractor ready to help out in the saga.  I wish they had taken him up on it.  Somewhere about a year from now HWBH is going to need annual service on the boiler and how are they going to get good service from the current contractor?



    You know, the crew that didn't even do a heat loss on the house before sizing a new boiler for this house.



    The same crew that piped the primary/secondary backwards.



    And put the wrong circ on the indirect.



    And piped that backwards.



    With no mixing valve at first.



    Ack!
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    the house is a bit funky with the lay out.  the garage, the bonus room, the dining room and the 2nd floor were all additions all at different years, so the layout is unusual.  yes a wood burning stove in the basement is odd....the house came with it.  the garage is a half flight lower than the basement.   we will not be using this company for anything else, and definitly not to service the burner in a year.  we are stuck with what we have at this point. we would like a good reference for someone in our area for future use.  
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    A New Thread

    HWBBH,

    You are the one who must start a new thread. This one is waaaay too long an confusing.



    Please understand also that we're not seeing, hearing or experiencing what you are. Most of us are hundreds or thousands of miles away. You are the only eyes and ears we have on the job. The only info we get comes from you. We are just reading words and making mental images from those words and then trying to give you accurate advice. If the info you give us is sketchy, scattered and inaccurate, then how can we diagnose your problem? Most of the info given has been like trying to catch a chicken in the yard that keeps darting in a different direction every time you get close to it. Please stay focused on one thing at a time and give as much pertinent info about it as you can. Do your best to answer all questions a particular pro asks and if you don't know the answer tell them so but find out how to get it.



    We pro's have also been somewhat to blame here also as every time a new piece of info is given, we chase that like a pack of hungry hounds rather than staying with the previous question til it's answered.



    It's taken nearly 500 posts to learn that there are rooms that were not included in the load calc, have no BB and aren't totally insulated. That should have been ascertained early on.



    Gordy has just ask for some specifics and a new thread. Let's give him those, get the answers needed and stay on one issue until it's resolved.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    Ack, indeed

    this really points to the potential value of a reinvigorated RPA certification program, along with some marketing and perhaps even manufacturer buy-in for warranty coverage.
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 211
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    Don't wait for the future...

    Get a qualified person there soon.  In the event that they have indeed installed an incorrectly sized boiler better to find out now while your original installer has stated that they would swap out for a 105.



    You have nothing to gain by waiting until next year.
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 211
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    Just for reference, the original post on this thread.

    Hot water baseboard heatingwe just converted from oil with a Burnham burner, 14 years old, to gas with a high efficiency Alpine burner, and we have baseboard heat.  The oil heat was quick, heating the house 5 to 10 degrees in about 15 minutes.  the gas heat with the Alpine is so slow, heating the house about 1 degree every 20 to 30 minutes.  is this normal? the company who installed it said it is, and that if we want it to be more efficient, we cannot turn the heat down.  this sounds crazy, and we do not want the heat so high while we sleep, and prefer to turn it down, but it is so slow to heat the house, and so it is cold in the morning for hours.  can someone elaborate or help with this?
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
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    Ludicrous

    I cannot believe there is still information coming to the surface here . 

        Fireplaces and woodstoves.in basements Oh my ! The basement is not a magical place where fire takes on a different face than on another elevation . Insulate with Roxul Safe and sound , put a 2 hour rated fire assembly (2 layers of  5/8 sheetrock ) and call it a day . Insulate under the Bonus room above the garage with the highest R value possible . Is the garage ceiling sheetrocked I hope ? Add the appropriate amount of heat in the bonus room also .

     I have heard of no less than 7 installs similar to this one using this very same combination of equipment ( sizes vary ) right in Northern Mass . I feel as if I should contact the Mass Attorney General to start an investigation into deceptive practices and impersonating a heating contractor .

    Dennis Foley Plumbing Inc  , Somerville Mass .   

    Vanaria plumbing  ,   Braintree

    Emerson Swan ,  Bruce Marshall ,  Randolph .  This gentleman may know of others that could help you in the area . He is a trainer and works for a distributor there . He will certainly know the correct people near you .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Eastman
    Eastman Member Posts: 927
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    What is the problem now?

    I thought the ultra sluggish heat and DHW issues were resolved.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited February 2014
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    Marginally

    It is but it's marginal. Now I understand why.



    Did not add up in the fact of the heat loss being in the 40k ish range, and a boiler with 73k doe.



    I think the installer just let it rip full fire to keep peace, and all mod/con efficiency is lost. Purely speculation on my part



    What they have is a living space inside a refrigerator, that is inside a freezer so to speak.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    To HWBH

    Please take Rich's advice. Get a competent contractor in there to access your whole envelope, and heating system so as they can come up with the most economical, and efficient solution.
  • Eastman
    Eastman Member Posts: 927
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    It's not all lost, but yeah I think we're getting the picture

    If I remember correctly, the original install was bungled, then fixed, possible boost function change, then the ODR curve was tweaked. Now we're hearing about this bread putting layout of conditioned and unconditioned spaces. With all these unconditioned spaces and a typical ODR curve, the system is going to struggle when the delta between conditioned and unconditioned is pushed.



    In a nutshell, sounds like the home is under radiated / under insulated for the expectations/life style of the homeowners, but yes this needs to be confirmed. The solution I guess is really then to give up on the bottom of the ODR curve, or install a boiler controller that uses indoor feedback.

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