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Re: T-87 mercury replacement
You got robbed. Not to put too fine a point on it. That old thermostat -- the T87 mercury -- can be and probably was sold on eBay or Craigslist the same day for twice what you paid the crook for the new one he sold you.
Unhappily, I doubt that you can get it back... and the new one will never work as well.
Unhappily, I doubt that you can get it back... and the new one will never work as well.
Main Vent Sizing
I am working to install main vents on my one pipe stems system. I have 3 branches/returns and I am trying to figure out which size main vents I should buy and install. I have measured 2 out of the 3 branches and will be measuring the 3rd this weekend (in the crawl space). Branch B actually comes off the Branch A a few feet up the main header so I included all of the near boiler header pipes in my measurements for both.
I got most of my info from Balancing Steam Systems Using a Vent Capacity Chart (https://heatinghelp.com/assets/documents/Balancing-Steam-Systems-Using-a-Vent-Capacity-Chart-1.pdf)
1" pipe = .005 cubic feet of air/foot
1.25" pipe = .010 cubic feet of air/foot
1.5" pipe = .014 cubic feet of air/foot
2" pipe = .023 cubic feet of air/foot
2.5" pipe = .030 cubic feet of air/foot
Branch A
3 feet of 2.5" pipe = 0.09 cubic feet of air
22 feet of 2" pipe = 0.506 cubic feet of air
42 feet of 1.25" pipe = 0.42 cubic feet of air
16 feet of 1" pipe = 0.08 cubic feet of air
Total = 1.096 Cubic Feet of Air
Branch B
3 feet of 2.5" pipe = 0.09 cubic feet of air
11 feet of 2" pipe = 0.253 cubic feet of air
20 feet of 1.5" pipe = 0.28 cubic feet of air
25 feet of 1.25" pipe = 0.25 cubic feet of air
16 feet of 1" pipe = 0.08 cubic feet of air
Total = 0.953 Cubic Feet of Air
I am planning to install either Gorton #1 or #2. With those totals, which vents/how many would you recommend? Is my math right? Should these numbers be rounded up? Am I overthinking this?
Also, since I can buy 3 Gorton #1s for the price of a #2, is there a way to get the appropriate venting without having to buy all #2s?
I got most of my info from Balancing Steam Systems Using a Vent Capacity Chart (https://heatinghelp.com/assets/documents/Balancing-Steam-Systems-Using-a-Vent-Capacity-Chart-1.pdf)
1" pipe = .005 cubic feet of air/foot
1.25" pipe = .010 cubic feet of air/foot
1.5" pipe = .014 cubic feet of air/foot
2" pipe = .023 cubic feet of air/foot
2.5" pipe = .030 cubic feet of air/foot
Branch A
3 feet of 2.5" pipe = 0.09 cubic feet of air
22 feet of 2" pipe = 0.506 cubic feet of air
42 feet of 1.25" pipe = 0.42 cubic feet of air
16 feet of 1" pipe = 0.08 cubic feet of air
Total = 1.096 Cubic Feet of Air
Branch B
3 feet of 2.5" pipe = 0.09 cubic feet of air
11 feet of 2" pipe = 0.253 cubic feet of air
20 feet of 1.5" pipe = 0.28 cubic feet of air
25 feet of 1.25" pipe = 0.25 cubic feet of air
16 feet of 1" pipe = 0.08 cubic feet of air
Total = 0.953 Cubic Feet of Air
I am planning to install either Gorton #1 or #2. With those totals, which vents/how many would you recommend? Is my math right? Should these numbers be rounded up? Am I overthinking this?
Also, since I can buy 3 Gorton #1s for the price of a #2, is there a way to get the appropriate venting without having to buy all #2s?
1
Re: Dear Reader
You are one if my main Life Coaches Dan...I'm a blessed to have been associated with you as A Dutch Uncle, Personal Fambly Friend, confidante, Confessor and The Person would smack
Some sense in to a hardened Drill Sgt like me...pointed out the Beautiful flowers along the way...the fleeting times with the kids..the Wife..how not to squander that..to supp on it and use it to fuel your fires 🔥..You inspired this Somewhat hurt, wounded, wild and angry young man to Dream big...go deep in to This trade...explore, be bold, try things that no one else is willing to do..You wrote about it and then I set out to do it..in my own style. You gave us ALL a platform, a soapbox, a Rostrum! In which to express ourselves pretty-damned Freely.
I grew up a Catholic School Boy...my parents struggled as well. But like you and TLM, Barbara and I had the Eye if the Tiger 🐅..We were gonna make it happen....regardless of the struggle (The struggle is the best part of the trip folks...The Grind..The 🍖 Meatgrinder like General Patton Talked about .
One of us has to write a Book about The Life & Times of Dan Holohan and how he changed and educated and embraced & celebrated an industry like no other than I can recall...Can you? This man needs his due. The big world Outside of our industry needs to know this man's, impact, Cult-of-Personality (The good kind!) influence, his Legacy. I plan to dedicate at least one long chapter of my Book-in-progress to Dan as well as countless references to him and his sayings & visions.
It is a very gratifying feeling to lay bleeding and hurt on the Battlefield of Life after a long & Glorious fight...catching your breathe, getting back on the Hard Road again...
"I am hurt...but I am not slain...I will lay me down and bleed awhile and then I will rise and fight again!!" Lord Carleton
You're on the Rise Again Pal...Mad Dog 🐕
Some sense in to a hardened Drill Sgt like me...pointed out the Beautiful flowers along the way...the fleeting times with the kids..the Wife..how not to squander that..to supp on it and use it to fuel your fires 🔥..You inspired this Somewhat hurt, wounded, wild and angry young man to Dream big...go deep in to This trade...explore, be bold, try things that no one else is willing to do..You wrote about it and then I set out to do it..in my own style. You gave us ALL a platform, a soapbox, a Rostrum! In which to express ourselves pretty-damned Freely.
I grew up a Catholic School Boy...my parents struggled as well. But like you and TLM, Barbara and I had the Eye if the Tiger 🐅..We were gonna make it happen....regardless of the struggle (The struggle is the best part of the trip folks...The Grind..The 🍖 Meatgrinder like General Patton Talked about .
One of us has to write a Book about The Life & Times of Dan Holohan and how he changed and educated and embraced & celebrated an industry like no other than I can recall...Can you? This man needs his due. The big world Outside of our industry needs to know this man's, impact, Cult-of-Personality (The good kind!) influence, his Legacy. I plan to dedicate at least one long chapter of my Book-in-progress to Dan as well as countless references to him and his sayings & visions.
It is a very gratifying feeling to lay bleeding and hurt on the Battlefield of Life after a long & Glorious fight...catching your breathe, getting back on the Hard Road again...
"I am hurt...but I am not slain...I will lay me down and bleed awhile and then I will rise and fight again!!" Lord Carleton
You're on the Rise Again Pal...Mad Dog 🐕
Re: Dan Holohan Retires After 36 Years of Writing Magazine Columns
From the Sunday_Dispatch_Sun__Jun_30__1991
Pittston Pa
"Interesting , educationial and successful..
Steam without Tears " 2 Day Steam Heat Seminar with...... ( the guy at the end )

Pittston Pa
"Interesting , educationial and successful..
Steam without Tears " 2 Day Steam Heat Seminar with...... ( the guy at the end )

reggi
3
Re: Called in the Big Guns yesterday....
House traps are a NY thing. Maybe to keep rats out?
Re: Htp uft rh wire
Allow me to amplify a little on @Ironman 's and @pecmsg 's comment -- with which I agree completely.
The Nest -- and it's occupancy sensing kin -- were designed for, and operate well with, forced air heating and air conditioning systems. They were not designed for any other type of heating system, and they do not work well with them unless they reprogramed to disable all their smart features (which can be done, although not easily) -- at which point you might as well have bought a regular thermostat for about $40.
If you do really want a Nest, that's your choice, but be aware that unless you do manage to completely defeat all of its occupancy sensing and time based setbacks, your nice boiler will not perform as expected, as its controls and the Nest will constantly be fighting each other. At best, expect higher fuel bills -- perhaps as much as 10 to 15 percent higher.
The Nest -- and it's occupancy sensing kin -- were designed for, and operate well with, forced air heating and air conditioning systems. They were not designed for any other type of heating system, and they do not work well with them unless they reprogramed to disable all their smart features (which can be done, although not easily) -- at which point you might as well have bought a regular thermostat for about $40.
If you do really want a Nest, that's your choice, but be aware that unless you do manage to completely defeat all of its occupancy sensing and time based setbacks, your nice boiler will not perform as expected, as its controls and the Nest will constantly be fighting each other. At best, expect higher fuel bills -- perhaps as much as 10 to 15 percent higher.
Re: Are mod-con high efficiency boilers false economy Vs traditional cast iron over a longer time frame?
In eight years our WM modcon has required nothing but routine cleaning. I am a retired telco tech and took an interest in how this boiler works and why it works so well with the cast iron rads in our old house. The boiler is programmed to run between 88 and 140 degree supply water which is good to minus 20 degrees outside. It is pretty much condensing all the time in heating mode.
Do a heat loss survey, add up your radiator EDR and see if you stand a chance of running in the condensing range most of the time. Off the top of my head our heat loss is 62k btu and the radiators are capable of putting out 102k btu at 180 degree supply water. This is a 1740 sq ft house built in the 1830's. Modern windows, doors, insulation allow for lower supply water temps. We have ten radiators.
I bought a basic gas analyzer and do my own maintenance. Over the last few years I've picked up some spare parts, a blower, gas valve, circulator, spare maintenance kits. I haven't needed anything but the maintenance kits so far. The main board is quite expensive and would blow a lot of the fuel savings if that ever had to be replaced. Fingers crossed.
The modcon replaced a fuel oil cast iron boiler. Our local HVAC company installed it. The following year I installed an indirect WH to replace a very old electric WH.
Taking heating degree days into account and trying to make as fair a comparison as possible, we spent 38% less on home heating the first year with the modcon.
I'm hoping to get 20 years or more out of this modcon by keeping an eye on water quality and keeping it clean. When the time comes to replace this modcon, maybe air to water heat pumps will be something to consider?
Do a heat loss survey, add up your radiator EDR and see if you stand a chance of running in the condensing range most of the time. Off the top of my head our heat loss is 62k btu and the radiators are capable of putting out 102k btu at 180 degree supply water. This is a 1740 sq ft house built in the 1830's. Modern windows, doors, insulation allow for lower supply water temps. We have ten radiators.
I bought a basic gas analyzer and do my own maintenance. Over the last few years I've picked up some spare parts, a blower, gas valve, circulator, spare maintenance kits. I haven't needed anything but the maintenance kits so far. The main board is quite expensive and would blow a lot of the fuel savings if that ever had to be replaced. Fingers crossed.
The modcon replaced a fuel oil cast iron boiler. Our local HVAC company installed it. The following year I installed an indirect WH to replace a very old electric WH.
Taking heating degree days into account and trying to make as fair a comparison as possible, we spent 38% less on home heating the first year with the modcon.
I'm hoping to get 20 years or more out of this modcon by keeping an eye on water quality and keeping it clean. When the time comes to replace this modcon, maybe air to water heat pumps will be something to consider?
Re: Are mod-con high efficiency boilers false economy Vs traditional cast iron over a longer time frame?
Your list does not include FUEL COSTS.
Mod Con high-efficiency boilers provide substantial FUEL COST SAVINGS which your list of cons does not even include. If you are only looking at the installation and maintenance cost, but not the efficiency and fuel cost benefits, you are only kidding yourself.
We have 3 sister buildings, each about 45,000 sq ft, only one of which was retrofitted 16 years ago with Mod Con Boilers, Indirect DHW Tank, modern Ventilation systems, Driveway Melting and advanced process controls.
Fuel use on the two sister buildings with the 30-year old original natural draft boilers with ON-OFF control is DOUBLE that of the retrofitted building, because they also only think maintenance cost is important. I am quite happy to save about $20,000 / year on the fuel bill for the retrofitted building.
So the answer is - do the full economics - consider total long-term cost of ownership.
Doug
Mod Con high-efficiency boilers provide substantial FUEL COST SAVINGS which your list of cons does not even include. If you are only looking at the installation and maintenance cost, but not the efficiency and fuel cost benefits, you are only kidding yourself.
We have 3 sister buildings, each about 45,000 sq ft, only one of which was retrofitted 16 years ago with Mod Con Boilers, Indirect DHW Tank, modern Ventilation systems, Driveway Melting and advanced process controls.
Fuel use on the two sister buildings with the 30-year old original natural draft boilers with ON-OFF control is DOUBLE that of the retrofitted building, because they also only think maintenance cost is important. I am quite happy to save about $20,000 / year on the fuel bill for the retrofitted building.
So the answer is - do the full economics - consider total long-term cost of ownership.
Doug
2
Re: Are mod-con high efficiency boilers false economy Vs traditional cast iron over a longer time frame?
I'd look very carefully at circumstances for the fuel savings that are being presented. It is very likely that most if not all of the existing boilers were grossly oversized for the heat load and probably well past thier prime. This causes a very large reduction in efficiency.... especially when looking at atmospheric gas boilers. I have found that simply going from a 2x oversized atmospheric boiler to a properly sized atmospheric (in residential) is about a 12% reduction in fuel use. Tales of 36% saving are probably true, but how much savings would there be by just properly sizing the equipment? I have done many commercial projects where we replaced existing boilers with 2 or 3 staged atmospheric boilers and saw typical savings from 35 to 40%.
I just replaced my 60% oversized stack damper equipped atmospheric boiler in my home's high mass conerted gravity system( which I combustion tested and it was running about 30% excess air and about 84% efficient) and replaced it with an about 60% oversized tiny power burner gas boiler with stack damper ( firing about 30% excess air and 84% efficient) and it looks like I have reduced fuel usage about 20%.
A simple on/off cast iron boiler connected to a single zone high mass system is a very efficient combination. There is no need for outdoor reset, as the mass of the system automatically resets the water temperature, and the boiler will have very long on cycles with very long off cycles for very high operating efficiency. About the only gains you will have with a condensing boiler is due to the condensing, which is probably worth about 12% reduction in fuel use. These mod con fuel savings will also be offset in part due to higher electrical usage of a typical modcon ( 2 pumps, blower motor and onboard electronics running nearly 24 hours a day all winter long.
Also, Mod cons have been around a lot longer that 15 years or so. They have been in use in Europe for more like 30 to 35 years ( the Triangle Tube models are one example) and the typical life is in the 12 to 15 year range.
In my book mod cons are simply not cost effective. Focusing investment on reducing heat loss of a structure is likely much more cost effective, because it has a 4 fold impact....Lower heat loss at a given outdoor temperature, a reduction in the length of the heating season ( a building is self heating due to internal gains) , cooling loads are probably reduced, and you are more comfortable year round.
I just replaced my 60% oversized stack damper equipped atmospheric boiler in my home's high mass conerted gravity system( which I combustion tested and it was running about 30% excess air and about 84% efficient) and replaced it with an about 60% oversized tiny power burner gas boiler with stack damper ( firing about 30% excess air and 84% efficient) and it looks like I have reduced fuel usage about 20%.
A simple on/off cast iron boiler connected to a single zone high mass system is a very efficient combination. There is no need for outdoor reset, as the mass of the system automatically resets the water temperature, and the boiler will have very long on cycles with very long off cycles for very high operating efficiency. About the only gains you will have with a condensing boiler is due to the condensing, which is probably worth about 12% reduction in fuel use. These mod con fuel savings will also be offset in part due to higher electrical usage of a typical modcon ( 2 pumps, blower motor and onboard electronics running nearly 24 hours a day all winter long.
Also, Mod cons have been around a lot longer that 15 years or so. They have been in use in Europe for more like 30 to 35 years ( the Triangle Tube models are one example) and the typical life is in the 12 to 15 year range.
In my book mod cons are simply not cost effective. Focusing investment on reducing heat loss of a structure is likely much more cost effective, because it has a 4 fold impact....Lower heat loss at a given outdoor temperature, a reduction in the length of the heating season ( a building is self heating due to internal gains) , cooling loads are probably reduced, and you are more comfortable year round.


