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Re: Can you use type M copper pipe?
According to their 2021 NSPCNJ allows M copper for domestic?realliveplumber said:Yes, M is approved in NJ. For potable and hydronic.
The wall thickness is the difference. L has a thicker wall than M.
https://epubs.iapmo.org/NSPC/NJ2021/
yes, and looks to have always been allowed in NJ even in prior code adoptions.
But will say, I have plenty of NJ plumbers and they still only buy type L pipe.
dko
1
Re: Wicked old two pipe, no traps
IIRC, boilers for Molines should be sized to only 80% of the radiation. That's what the radiator orifices are sized for. If the system doesn't have the original adjustable orifice valves, then I'd orifice it to the current heating needs. This would allow you to downsize the boiler to the current heating load ( and not the radiation load). Read all the Moline info you can get.
Lowering the water line should help you, as you get more b-dimension... everything returns back into the water level. Keep in mind that there are 3 pipes on this system, supply, return and condensor pipe coming out of the Moline ( venturi) fitting up on the ceiling. The length on this condensor pipe is in the literature....about 35 feet IIRC. This condensor line, along with the Moline fitting, create a vacuum on the return to give incredible distribution. The condensor line is sized to prevent steam from reaching the end of the pipe at the proper maximum operating pressure (8oz). DO NOT INSULATE THIS PIPE AND USE AN OUNCES VAPORTSTAT. The saucer shaped device is a very sensitive check valve to allow the system to go into vacuum. It has a diaphargm on some type ( I haven't ever pulled one apart) which is probably shot and should be replaced with a teflon ball check valve with no spring ( apollo makes them).
Lowering the water line should help you, as you get more b-dimension... everything returns back into the water level. Keep in mind that there are 3 pipes on this system, supply, return and condensor pipe coming out of the Moline ( venturi) fitting up on the ceiling. The length on this condensor pipe is in the literature....about 35 feet IIRC. This condensor line, along with the Moline fitting, create a vacuum on the return to give incredible distribution. The condensor line is sized to prevent steam from reaching the end of the pipe at the proper maximum operating pressure (8oz). DO NOT INSULATE THIS PIPE AND USE AN OUNCES VAPORTSTAT. The saucer shaped device is a very sensitive check valve to allow the system to go into vacuum. It has a diaphargm on some type ( I haven't ever pulled one apart) which is probably shot and should be replaced with a teflon ball check valve with no spring ( apollo makes them).
Re: Burnham Oil Burner creating tons of soot
I have had sever instances with 'factory Packages" Both of these were several years ago.
One was an HB Smith series 19 with the exact Power Flame oil burner specified for the boiler. This burner made soot on 1/2 the boiler. So if you split the boiler in half lengthwise the left side was soot and the right side was clean.
The burner was removed from the boiler. The refractory was inspected for impingement. Every part of the burner was checked against the factory specs, blower wheel, choke ring, diffuser, nozzles (different ones tried, pump pressure etc. Everything that could possibly be checked was checked.
I don't remember which nozzle was originally specified it was a bypass nozzle and was either a 60 or 80 degree. We were the installing contractor. At this time we were not the Power Flame rep but had been for the previous 10 years.
Finally in desperation we substituted a 45 degree bypass nozzle and that fixed the problem.
We had 0 help from Power Flame or Smith on this "we have never seen this problem before Yada, Yada"
We spent and ate a tremendous amount of labor on this job.
The second job was an air force base with a Weil McLain/Carlin factory package. We did not install this and were hired to do the start up. We check the burner against the factory specs and everything matched.
No amount of work would make this burn right. Everything was checked and was at factory spec. We called in Carlin who made some changes to the burner that fixed it. It was so long ago I don't recall the problem.
The 3rd job were Power Flame burners installed in Buderus boilers (factory package) in some schools in the Boston area. These were combination gas/oil boilers.
Again, we did not install these we were hired to do the start up. On gas they were fine. On oil high fire was ok but low fire was disgusting. Oil fire was so awful that I disconnected the oil solenoid valves so they could not run oil. I talked with the burner mfg and asked "who did the testing" on this package and got some evasive answers.
We decided to leave oil disconnected and to just let the problem smolder to smoke out whose problem it was as it sure was not ours.
After 6 months we were told it was decided to remove the baffles in the boiler 'too much back pressure" and to reconnect the oil and try it. Apparently that was the fix. I never saw the job.
Ok so the point is I don't trust the MFGs to do the proper testing before they send the equipment into the field. If you do blindly accept what they tell you they will lead you astray.
The above are commercial jobs. Maybe they are more diligent with residential equipment.
Take even a residential boiler that is made in say 3,4,5 and 6 sections
Now test that boiler with a Beckett, Carlin and Riello burners. 4 different boilers with 3 different burners is 12 different boilers to test.
Do you think the MFGs are really doing this?
Do you really think they are doing this on commercial jobs when they have more than 4 sections and more than 3 different burners plus testing with gas burners, natural gas and propane with straight gas burner and combination gas/oil burners.
They combinations are almost endless and I know this testing does not always get done. Most who have done residential work will probably not believe this and that is fine. But my experience has proven otherwise.
The point is the installer may have done a bad job; he may not have set the burner up properly. There may be a job site condition like a chimney problem or an oil issue or a combustion air problem.
But factory problems (though rare) are not nonexistent and do exist.
One was an HB Smith series 19 with the exact Power Flame oil burner specified for the boiler. This burner made soot on 1/2 the boiler. So if you split the boiler in half lengthwise the left side was soot and the right side was clean.
The burner was removed from the boiler. The refractory was inspected for impingement. Every part of the burner was checked against the factory specs, blower wheel, choke ring, diffuser, nozzles (different ones tried, pump pressure etc. Everything that could possibly be checked was checked.
I don't remember which nozzle was originally specified it was a bypass nozzle and was either a 60 or 80 degree. We were the installing contractor. At this time we were not the Power Flame rep but had been for the previous 10 years.
Finally in desperation we substituted a 45 degree bypass nozzle and that fixed the problem.
We had 0 help from Power Flame or Smith on this "we have never seen this problem before Yada, Yada"
We spent and ate a tremendous amount of labor on this job.
The second job was an air force base with a Weil McLain/Carlin factory package. We did not install this and were hired to do the start up. We check the burner against the factory specs and everything matched.
No amount of work would make this burn right. Everything was checked and was at factory spec. We called in Carlin who made some changes to the burner that fixed it. It was so long ago I don't recall the problem.
The 3rd job were Power Flame burners installed in Buderus boilers (factory package) in some schools in the Boston area. These were combination gas/oil boilers.
Again, we did not install these we were hired to do the start up. On gas they were fine. On oil high fire was ok but low fire was disgusting. Oil fire was so awful that I disconnected the oil solenoid valves so they could not run oil. I talked with the burner mfg and asked "who did the testing" on this package and got some evasive answers.
We decided to leave oil disconnected and to just let the problem smolder to smoke out whose problem it was as it sure was not ours.
After 6 months we were told it was decided to remove the baffles in the boiler 'too much back pressure" and to reconnect the oil and try it. Apparently that was the fix. I never saw the job.
Ok so the point is I don't trust the MFGs to do the proper testing before they send the equipment into the field. If you do blindly accept what they tell you they will lead you astray.
The above are commercial jobs. Maybe they are more diligent with residential equipment.
Take even a residential boiler that is made in say 3,4,5 and 6 sections
Now test that boiler with a Beckett, Carlin and Riello burners. 4 different boilers with 3 different burners is 12 different boilers to test.
Do you think the MFGs are really doing this?
Do you really think they are doing this on commercial jobs when they have more than 4 sections and more than 3 different burners plus testing with gas burners, natural gas and propane with straight gas burner and combination gas/oil burners.
They combinations are almost endless and I know this testing does not always get done. Most who have done residential work will probably not believe this and that is fine. But my experience has proven otherwise.
The point is the installer may have done a bad job; he may not have set the burner up properly. There may be a job site condition like a chimney problem or an oil issue or a combustion air problem.
But factory problems (though rare) are not nonexistent and do exist.
Re: Well that isn't going to work (outdoor unit iced over)
Not surprised. Where's the drier vent? That's a good one for clogging condenser coils.
HVACNUT
1
Re: Wicked old two pipe, no traps
First picture looks like a scary ski mask. 
I see a lot of concrete blocks in your future as that is a pretty high water line.
I see a lot of concrete blocks in your future as that is a pretty high water line.
JUGHNE
2
Re: Well that isn't going to work (outdoor unit iced over)
I would give the unit a once over check up, make sure it is a cold temp model. I had a contractor that had this issue on his personal mini split and it was a cold temp model, it turned out he had a refrigerant leak, I didn't think it would cause icing like that but it did
GGross
1
Re: Weil McLain AB-80H Control Board Fire
Reminds me of a 200-ton Carrier water cooled chiller we had that lost a control board.
After many, many calls to Carrier we were told they did not have a board for that chiller configured. We had to give them the exact Model and serial # and they would configure the board. When we get the board just plug it in and away we go.
Of course, our customer who used the chiller for process is screaming because it was going to take a week to get the board.
So the board shows up late one day and two of us head up there to get the chiller running. My partner puts the board in and is checking parameters and tries to start the chiller ...no go. He works on if for 20 min and is getting all frustrated, so he walks away and I (the guy who hates microprocessors) get into it.
After a couple of min, I find the problem.
We have a water-cooled chiller, and they programmed the board for an air-cooled chiller. Changed one parameter and we were online.
But remember.
They HAD to have the Exact model and serial #s
I trust no manufacturers.
After many, many calls to Carrier we were told they did not have a board for that chiller configured. We had to give them the exact Model and serial # and they would configure the board. When we get the board just plug it in and away we go.
Of course, our customer who used the chiller for process is screaming because it was going to take a week to get the board.
So the board shows up late one day and two of us head up there to get the chiller running. My partner puts the board in and is checking parameters and tries to start the chiller ...no go. He works on if for 20 min and is getting all frustrated, so he walks away and I (the guy who hates microprocessors) get into it.
After a couple of min, I find the problem.
We have a water-cooled chiller, and they programmed the board for an air-cooled chiller. Changed one parameter and we were online.
But remember.
They HAD to have the Exact model and serial #s
I trust no manufacturers.
Re: Oil Boiler to Gas conversion - is my math around savings right?
11:30 AM EST 1/2/24The delivery cost is much higher with NG, locally about 8X the commodity cost.
Wholesale spot price for Heating Oil is $2.55 a gallon (135,000 BTUs).
Wholesale spot price for Natural Gas is also $2.55 (One Million BTUs).
BTU for BTU, oil is 7 1/2 times as expensive as natural gas.
Both oil and gas have transportation and distribution costs. So retail prices are higher for both.
https://finviz.com/futures.ashx
Re: Surging
I appreciate the info. I guess the hardest part is knowing if I'm skimming well. Also, without draining wont my water just stay red being the treatment didnt work?Fred said:You've already recently drained and skimmed. I would skim first then drain and refill but the critical issue is skimming well, slow and long enough to ensure you get all the oils out of the boiler. I use the Steamaster tablets. I think they are worth it but I usually only add two tablets at the beginning of the heating season. The bottle suggests 4 or 5 times that amount but that amount also causes a very unstable water line.
fxrgrunt
1