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Re: Gas gun in oil burner and Chimney Liner
All chimneys must be suitable for the class of service. If you search this site, you will find me repeating this several dozen times. The code requires a liner. The liner must be properly sized and intact. Terra cotta liners are never installed properly, never hold up, run cold and sweat, and the mortar is incorrect so it erodes even if properly placed, which is rare.
The industry std. is NFPA 211. In Ch 15, you will find levels of inspection. You need a Level II internal inspection by a qualified agency. That will 100% reveal you need a liner if they're doing their jobs.
Many great points above by the guys on sizing, efficiency, condensation, etc. The liner not only contains corrosion and erosion, it sizes the flue to the appliance and, being low mass, heats up quickly to minimize backdrafting at startup. Your chimney sweep should have recommended a level II- call him.
If you check into your state and utilities, you may find incentives to do the CAT IV condensing unit now rather than wait. That money for the liner would go a long way to defraying that cost plus you begin saving on energy costs.
The industry std. is NFPA 211. In Ch 15, you will find levels of inspection. You need a Level II internal inspection by a qualified agency. That will 100% reveal you need a liner if they're doing their jobs.
Many great points above by the guys on sizing, efficiency, condensation, etc. The liner not only contains corrosion and erosion, it sizes the flue to the appliance and, being low mass, heats up quickly to minimize backdrafting at startup. Your chimney sweep should have recommended a level II- call him.
If you check into your state and utilities, you may find incentives to do the CAT IV condensing unit now rather than wait. That money for the liner would go a long way to defraying that cost plus you begin saving on energy costs.
Re: Burnham Oil Burner creating tons of soot
I worked with a guy years ago who insisted on really wrenching down on the nozzle when servicing the burner. He would back one wrench and really lean on the other stretching's the threads in the adapter and causing a leak through the threads especially at an elevated pressure. It would show up only after enough oil has dripped into the burner tube and out into the chamber. If the burner tube was cleaned with every attempt to solve the issue it would take a day or so to declare it's self. This is something I've seen a number of time since. What you are describing rings that bell for me. An indicator for me was a nozzle that turned out normally for a few threads and then started to bind or gaul the rest of the way.
Just a thought and something I'd look at.
Good luck.
Just a thought and something I'd look at.
Good luck.
Grallert
2
Re: Install of the Year!
Doesn't matter, no way we will know unless you want to call those numbers. No one puts stickers assuming it will be blasted on the internet, it's for the homeowner to know who to call current/future.
I judge installers and servers on how they place stickers.
If they place it randomly and crooked, I automatically assume their work is just as sloppy.
I judge installers and servers on how they place stickers.
If they place it randomly and crooked, I automatically assume their work is just as sloppy.
dko
2
Re: Burnham Oil Burner creating tons of soot
From the Beckett OEM Spec Guide:
Model Burner Nozzle Alt. Nozzle Pressure Air settings Head
MPO115 AFG 0.65 X 45°B 0.65 X 45°B* (H) 150 S-6 / B-0 L2
MPO115 AFG 0.60 X 45°W 0.60 X 45°B 180 S-5 / B-0 L2
Note that they use a smaller nozzle with the higher pressure.
Model Burner Nozzle Alt. Nozzle Pressure Air settings Head
MPO115 AFG 0.65 X 45°B 0.65 X 45°B* (H) 150 S-6 / B-0 L2
MPO115 AFG 0.60 X 45°W 0.60 X 45°B 180 S-5 / B-0 L2
Note that they use a smaller nozzle with the higher pressure.
Re: Burnham Oil Burner creating tons of soot
I’d really start over with all the settings and parameters, especially insertion depth, z dimension, and overfire draft. 1/4” on the z is the difference between clean and soot city.
I have a first gen MPO. Set up perfectly it hasn’t been cleaned in 4 years, and doesn’t need it.
I have a first gen MPO. Set up perfectly it hasn’t been cleaned in 4 years, and doesn’t need it.
Re: Burnham Oil Burner creating tons of soot
Do you ever notice that when people say the combustion numbers look good they never list them. Draft. smoke, CO(lightoff, Run, Shutdown), O2, Flue Temp
Re: Can you use type M copper pipe?
According to their 2021 NSPCNJ allows M copper for domestic?realliveplumber said:Yes, M is approved in NJ. For potable and hydronic.
The wall thickness is the difference. L has a thicker wall than M.
https://epubs.iapmo.org/NSPC/NJ2021/
yes, and looks to have always been allowed in NJ even in prior code adoptions.
But will say, I have plenty of NJ plumbers and they still only buy type L pipe.
dko
1
Re: Wicked old two pipe, no traps
IIRC, boilers for Molines should be sized to only 80% of the radiation. That's what the radiator orifices are sized for. If the system doesn't have the original adjustable orifice valves, then I'd orifice it to the current heating needs. This would allow you to downsize the boiler to the current heating load ( and not the radiation load). Read all the Moline info you can get.
Lowering the water line should help you, as you get more b-dimension... everything returns back into the water level. Keep in mind that there are 3 pipes on this system, supply, return and condensor pipe coming out of the Moline ( venturi) fitting up on the ceiling. The length on this condensor pipe is in the literature....about 35 feet IIRC. This condensor line, along with the Moline fitting, create a vacuum on the return to give incredible distribution. The condensor line is sized to prevent steam from reaching the end of the pipe at the proper maximum operating pressure (8oz). DO NOT INSULATE THIS PIPE AND USE AN OUNCES VAPORTSTAT. The saucer shaped device is a very sensitive check valve to allow the system to go into vacuum. It has a diaphargm on some type ( I haven't ever pulled one apart) which is probably shot and should be replaced with a teflon ball check valve with no spring ( apollo makes them).
Lowering the water line should help you, as you get more b-dimension... everything returns back into the water level. Keep in mind that there are 3 pipes on this system, supply, return and condensor pipe coming out of the Moline ( venturi) fitting up on the ceiling. The length on this condensor pipe is in the literature....about 35 feet IIRC. This condensor line, along with the Moline fitting, create a vacuum on the return to give incredible distribution. The condensor line is sized to prevent steam from reaching the end of the pipe at the proper maximum operating pressure (8oz). DO NOT INSULATE THIS PIPE AND USE AN OUNCES VAPORTSTAT. The saucer shaped device is a very sensitive check valve to allow the system to go into vacuum. It has a diaphargm on some type ( I haven't ever pulled one apart) which is probably shot and should be replaced with a teflon ball check valve with no spring ( apollo makes them).
Re: Burnham Oil Burner creating tons of soot
I have had sever instances with 'factory Packages" Both of these were several years ago.
One was an HB Smith series 19 with the exact Power Flame oil burner specified for the boiler. This burner made soot on 1/2 the boiler. So if you split the boiler in half lengthwise the left side was soot and the right side was clean.
The burner was removed from the boiler. The refractory was inspected for impingement. Every part of the burner was checked against the factory specs, blower wheel, choke ring, diffuser, nozzles (different ones tried, pump pressure etc. Everything that could possibly be checked was checked.
I don't remember which nozzle was originally specified it was a bypass nozzle and was either a 60 or 80 degree. We were the installing contractor. At this time we were not the Power Flame rep but had been for the previous 10 years.
Finally in desperation we substituted a 45 degree bypass nozzle and that fixed the problem.
We had 0 help from Power Flame or Smith on this "we have never seen this problem before Yada, Yada"
We spent and ate a tremendous amount of labor on this job.
The second job was an air force base with a Weil McLain/Carlin factory package. We did not install this and were hired to do the start up. We check the burner against the factory specs and everything matched.
No amount of work would make this burn right. Everything was checked and was at factory spec. We called in Carlin who made some changes to the burner that fixed it. It was so long ago I don't recall the problem.
The 3rd job were Power Flame burners installed in Buderus boilers (factory package) in some schools in the Boston area. These were combination gas/oil boilers.
Again, we did not install these we were hired to do the start up. On gas they were fine. On oil high fire was ok but low fire was disgusting. Oil fire was so awful that I disconnected the oil solenoid valves so they could not run oil. I talked with the burner mfg and asked "who did the testing" on this package and got some evasive answers.
We decided to leave oil disconnected and to just let the problem smolder to smoke out whose problem it was as it sure was not ours.
After 6 months we were told it was decided to remove the baffles in the boiler 'too much back pressure" and to reconnect the oil and try it. Apparently that was the fix. I never saw the job.
Ok so the point is I don't trust the MFGs to do the proper testing before they send the equipment into the field. If you do blindly accept what they tell you they will lead you astray.
The above are commercial jobs. Maybe they are more diligent with residential equipment.
Take even a residential boiler that is made in say 3,4,5 and 6 sections
Now test that boiler with a Beckett, Carlin and Riello burners. 4 different boilers with 3 different burners is 12 different boilers to test.
Do you think the MFGs are really doing this?
Do you really think they are doing this on commercial jobs when they have more than 4 sections and more than 3 different burners plus testing with gas burners, natural gas and propane with straight gas burner and combination gas/oil burners.
They combinations are almost endless and I know this testing does not always get done. Most who have done residential work will probably not believe this and that is fine. But my experience has proven otherwise.
The point is the installer may have done a bad job; he may not have set the burner up properly. There may be a job site condition like a chimney problem or an oil issue or a combustion air problem.
But factory problems (though rare) are not nonexistent and do exist.
One was an HB Smith series 19 with the exact Power Flame oil burner specified for the boiler. This burner made soot on 1/2 the boiler. So if you split the boiler in half lengthwise the left side was soot and the right side was clean.
The burner was removed from the boiler. The refractory was inspected for impingement. Every part of the burner was checked against the factory specs, blower wheel, choke ring, diffuser, nozzles (different ones tried, pump pressure etc. Everything that could possibly be checked was checked.
I don't remember which nozzle was originally specified it was a bypass nozzle and was either a 60 or 80 degree. We were the installing contractor. At this time we were not the Power Flame rep but had been for the previous 10 years.
Finally in desperation we substituted a 45 degree bypass nozzle and that fixed the problem.
We had 0 help from Power Flame or Smith on this "we have never seen this problem before Yada, Yada"
We spent and ate a tremendous amount of labor on this job.
The second job was an air force base with a Weil McLain/Carlin factory package. We did not install this and were hired to do the start up. We check the burner against the factory specs and everything matched.
No amount of work would make this burn right. Everything was checked and was at factory spec. We called in Carlin who made some changes to the burner that fixed it. It was so long ago I don't recall the problem.
The 3rd job were Power Flame burners installed in Buderus boilers (factory package) in some schools in the Boston area. These were combination gas/oil boilers.
Again, we did not install these we were hired to do the start up. On gas they were fine. On oil high fire was ok but low fire was disgusting. Oil fire was so awful that I disconnected the oil solenoid valves so they could not run oil. I talked with the burner mfg and asked "who did the testing" on this package and got some evasive answers.
We decided to leave oil disconnected and to just let the problem smolder to smoke out whose problem it was as it sure was not ours.
After 6 months we were told it was decided to remove the baffles in the boiler 'too much back pressure" and to reconnect the oil and try it. Apparently that was the fix. I never saw the job.
Ok so the point is I don't trust the MFGs to do the proper testing before they send the equipment into the field. If you do blindly accept what they tell you they will lead you astray.
The above are commercial jobs. Maybe they are more diligent with residential equipment.
Take even a residential boiler that is made in say 3,4,5 and 6 sections
Now test that boiler with a Beckett, Carlin and Riello burners. 4 different boilers with 3 different burners is 12 different boilers to test.
Do you think the MFGs are really doing this?
Do you really think they are doing this on commercial jobs when they have more than 4 sections and more than 3 different burners plus testing with gas burners, natural gas and propane with straight gas burner and combination gas/oil burners.
They combinations are almost endless and I know this testing does not always get done. Most who have done residential work will probably not believe this and that is fine. But my experience has proven otherwise.
The point is the installer may have done a bad job; he may not have set the burner up properly. There may be a job site condition like a chimney problem or an oil issue or a combustion air problem.
But factory problems (though rare) are not nonexistent and do exist.
