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Re: How to choose a good hydronic heating/cooling contractor...
I'll give the 'ignorant' homeowner's point of view of what I wished I would have known.
#1 - Any contractor who makes a recommendation without knowing the intricacies of the house - air infiltration, age, plaster or sheet rock - can't do an adequate heat loss.
If you have bad windows like I do (old single pane), and they don't even mention that, something is seriously wrong. Or even to not check the age of the windows if you have double pane is not wise. The best contractor will also check if you did an energy audit to assess the infiltration.
#2 Ask to see the heatloss estimates. I used this layman's calculator after the fact to do my own 'dumb' estimate. http://usa.hudsonreed.com/btu-calculator It's not manual J. But it gives some ballpark. Make sure he/she does a thorough heat loss. Most make a wild educated guess.
#3 Don't be shy to see their work. A happy client will be delighted to send pictures or do a reference call.
#4 Do they know all the heating emitter options and when to use what? I had many plumbers (even third generation licensed plumbers) who never heard of panel rads. Recessed sunrads are very popular in my area (long island), but recessing them while looks better does require additional BTU to be added to the heat loss. Also I was surprised to find to find out that panel rads were equivalent in price to sunrads and much nicer looking. The ones who did know of them were quick to say it's too expensive probably because of lack of experience.
#5 Do you really need a combi boiler? When I got quotes, 4 out of 6 people recommended a combi. None explained the hot water limitations. I would never do a combi boiler in a house over 1500 sq feet. They don't save that much space and need more servicing which isn't cheap. They are all the rage where I live. I had two people who went the traditional route and I unfortunately thought that since they were in the minority, so their plan was subpar. Majority doesn't always rule.
#6 - Be careful about radiant floor staple up under wood floor. It sounds good but what a mess if not done well. Also the creaking pex is irritating.
#7 More zones isn't necessarily better. I have 8 zones for a 2000 sq ft house. I needed 2, max 3. The added zones add no real value. My house isn't so big that I need run it cooler in one part vs another. I thought I'd run downstairs lower at night. It doesn't pay and then it takes all the more longer to heat it back up.
#8 Don't ever ever ever let a contractor diss a steam system especially in an old house. If they do this, run! Back to #1 - every house is different! There is no one size fits all rule.
#9. While price shouldn't be the decider, I found that high price doesn't always equate with getting the best result.
#10 Be an educated consumer on any major changes to a house. Don't put your trust completely in a contractor. They won't live in the house. They won't be paying the bill for the heating system. Don't feel that someone with a business knows more that you can learn. I'm not much more educated in hydronics than long time plumbers. Also every single person you talk to will have a different opinion. I think i've talked to 20 'experts' on my situation, each one was different. That's why education is important for the homeowner.
#1 - Any contractor who makes a recommendation without knowing the intricacies of the house - air infiltration, age, plaster or sheet rock - can't do an adequate heat loss.
If you have bad windows like I do (old single pane), and they don't even mention that, something is seriously wrong. Or even to not check the age of the windows if you have double pane is not wise. The best contractor will also check if you did an energy audit to assess the infiltration.
#2 Ask to see the heatloss estimates. I used this layman's calculator after the fact to do my own 'dumb' estimate. http://usa.hudsonreed.com/btu-calculator It's not manual J. But it gives some ballpark. Make sure he/she does a thorough heat loss. Most make a wild educated guess.
#3 Don't be shy to see their work. A happy client will be delighted to send pictures or do a reference call.
#4 Do they know all the heating emitter options and when to use what? I had many plumbers (even third generation licensed plumbers) who never heard of panel rads. Recessed sunrads are very popular in my area (long island), but recessing them while looks better does require additional BTU to be added to the heat loss. Also I was surprised to find to find out that panel rads were equivalent in price to sunrads and much nicer looking. The ones who did know of them were quick to say it's too expensive probably because of lack of experience.
#5 Do you really need a combi boiler? When I got quotes, 4 out of 6 people recommended a combi. None explained the hot water limitations. I would never do a combi boiler in a house over 1500 sq feet. They don't save that much space and need more servicing which isn't cheap. They are all the rage where I live. I had two people who went the traditional route and I unfortunately thought that since they were in the minority, so their plan was subpar. Majority doesn't always rule.
#6 - Be careful about radiant floor staple up under wood floor. It sounds good but what a mess if not done well. Also the creaking pex is irritating.
#7 More zones isn't necessarily better. I have 8 zones for a 2000 sq ft house. I needed 2, max 3. The added zones add no real value. My house isn't so big that I need run it cooler in one part vs another. I thought I'd run downstairs lower at night. It doesn't pay and then it takes all the more longer to heat it back up.
#8 Don't ever ever ever let a contractor diss a steam system especially in an old house. If they do this, run! Back to #1 - every house is different! There is no one size fits all rule.
#9. While price shouldn't be the decider, I found that high price doesn't always equate with getting the best result.
#10 Be an educated consumer on any major changes to a house. Don't put your trust completely in a contractor. They won't live in the house. They won't be paying the bill for the heating system. Don't feel that someone with a business knows more that you can learn. I'm not much more educated in hydronics than long time plumbers. Also every single person you talk to will have a different opinion. I think i've talked to 20 'experts' on my situation, each one was different. That's why education is important for the homeowner.
josieT
9
Re: A.O. Smith water heater. Big problems. No help. (JohnNY) **Updated 3/27/15, 11:30am**
@jonny88 @JohnNY dont be so fast to praise anyone, especially Lochinvar. I was in the same predicament a few months back when I walked in to repair a few large btu Knight boilers in a commercial setting. After talking with the reps and rep repair guys I got no where. I was going to come on here and make a similar thread to this however decided to sit it out and repair the units. Three months after I started I completed the task. Lochinvar said the system was not piped to spec after they couldnt find the issue. Utter bs. The boilers were piped as per manufacturers literature (I wasnt the unstaller). I solved the problem. The client smiled and still smiles ear to ear.
So before you listen promises and promises, just know every company does this to someone at some point, you just didnt hear about it.
I work on 'em all. Lochinvar, Viessmann, TT, NTI, Noritz, Rinnai, WM.... each company has its pros and cons.
Guys, this is a new complicated world.
So before you listen promises and promises, just know every company does this to someone at some point, you just didnt hear about it.
I work on 'em all. Lochinvar, Viessmann, TT, NTI, Noritz, Rinnai, WM.... each company has its pros and cons.
Guys, this is a new complicated world.
Re: A.O. Smith water heater. Big problems. No help. (JohnNY) **Updated 3/27/15, 11:30am**
And I repeat:
I will no longer use ao smith products because of the treatment you have received.
Please don't tell me not to jump to conclusions, not to bash a manufacturer and not to boycott. Because when you tell me that, you are telling me to lie down and take a beating without the benefit of self defense.
WE are out there, EVERY day, facing good customers. I should sell these people, who trust my judgment, a product that will not be backed up by the manufacturer if something goes wrong?
Sorry. Um, no. Not even sometimes.
My customers are the people who make a difference in MY life.
Al Corelli
ACA Inc.
"We Warm You in Ways You'd Never Imagine"
Serving Westchester County, NY and Lower Connecticut
I will no longer use ao smith products because of the treatment you have received.
Please don't tell me not to jump to conclusions, not to bash a manufacturer and not to boycott. Because when you tell me that, you are telling me to lie down and take a beating without the benefit of self defense.
WE are out there, EVERY day, facing good customers. I should sell these people, who trust my judgment, a product that will not be backed up by the manufacturer if something goes wrong?
Sorry. Um, no. Not even sometimes.
My customers are the people who make a difference in MY life.
Al Corelli
ACA Inc.
"We Warm You in Ways You'd Never Imagine"
Serving Westchester County, NY and Lower Connecticut
Re: Not good for plumbing in NYC
In one of the trade magazines there recently was a story of a problem sewer line with blockage. The camera man found a baseball bat lying in the horizontal run to the city sewer. With the camera and hooks it was removed. It was thought to have been purposely placed in there on the rough-in.
One time I pulled out a toothbrush with a closet auger, the 3 adults that lived there at the time were not home for this. I told them I just rinsed it off and put it back in the toothbrush holder. I'm really sure they all brought new toothbrushes that day.
One time I pulled out a toothbrush with a closet auger, the 3 adults that lived there at the time were not home for this. I told them I just rinsed it off and put it back in the toothbrush holder. I'm really sure they all brought new toothbrushes that day.
JUGHNE
5
Re: A.O. Smith water heater. Big problems. No help. (JohnNY) **Updated 3/27/15, 11:30am**
THIS!!!!!! is exactly one of the contributing factors why I closed up Triple Crown several years back: At 1135pm on a Friday Night in February, its YOU and YOUR stinking Boiler, HWH, et cetera making the client miserable. Try getting a rep....UNLESS you do TONS of business (BIG dollars) or are on the dart/drinking team with him. Your on your own with a lot of products. They all blow smoke up your... at the trade shows, but very few are REALLY there for you otherwise. Glenn Stanton and Burnham, Johnny White and Taco, Mark Hunt with Wilo, Chuck Shaw, Bob Melinas with Weil Mclain, Bill Wolfe at Honeywell stand out in my memory as Beacons of Light and truth when you're in a jam. I know JohnnyNY from Gateway from many years and have consulted and installed side by side with the man. His men always follow specs and HE picks up the nuance things.... like undersized gas meters, et al....venting issues. The man's trying run a business...he just expects a PREDICTABLE product, honesty, and some real-time info when a problem does crop up. I lost count of how many times I heard: "...REALLY? this is the first were hearing this.....actually, youre the ONLY ones having these problems" then, you find out later from an insider that they knew about the probs long before. I always loved the WAY BELOW "going labor rate" they were "...willing to pay when you proved them wrong. Remember what Ray Wolfarth says in his excellent book: "Manufacturers LIE!!!!" not ALL, but too many. After a while I never swore by alot of brands because it would come back to bite cha. I just changed my sales pitch to : "Listen, ALL these brands have problems sometimes.....I dont need any extra headaches, and that is why I use them...it all depends on how the company handles the problem. Mad Dog
Re: wet returns
Water will always be sitting in those pipes. That's why they are called wet returns. If you have any mains that loop around your basement and then return to the boiler, after the last radiator run, they become dry returns and have to drop down into a wet return to keep steam from flowing through them, causing water hammer.
Most new installs get some drains/spigots on the wet returns to allow them to be flushed out as a part of annual maintenance but a lot of older systems don't have those. Any dirt in the system will eventually get carried back to the boiler. Most of it will settle in the wet returns, some will work its way into the boiler. You should use the Boiler drain to drain the mudleg in the boiler every two or three months. Drain water until it runs clear.
Most new installs get some drains/spigots on the wet returns to allow them to be flushed out as a part of annual maintenance but a lot of older systems don't have those. Any dirt in the system will eventually get carried back to the boiler. Most of it will settle in the wet returns, some will work its way into the boiler. You should use the Boiler drain to drain the mudleg in the boiler every two or three months. Drain water until it runs clear.
Fred
5
Re: Have a Warren Webster Hot Water Heater Model 12H21 (old); Want to hook up in garage.
that is a 4 Speed Motor. you need to pick a speed and only use the WHITE wire with whatever speed you choose.
Black is High
Blue is Medium
Yellow is Medium Low
red is Low
For example, if you want to use Medium Low speed (yellow) you will hook your 115V Hot wire to Yellow and your 115V Neutral wire to WHITE
A line voltage thermostat will work, and you'll run your fan wiring through that (if its a single pole line voltage stat break the yellow wire or whatever speed you choose......if its a double pole stat run both wires......one to each pole of the thermostat)
Black is High
Blue is Medium
Yellow is Medium Low
red is Low
For example, if you want to use Medium Low speed (yellow) you will hook your 115V Hot wire to Yellow and your 115V Neutral wire to WHITE
A line voltage thermostat will work, and you'll run your fan wiring through that (if its a single pole line voltage stat break the yellow wire or whatever speed you choose......if its a double pole stat run both wires......one to each pole of the thermostat)
Don_197
5
I can't say enough...
good things about this company.
I Just got #16 in the mail.
I don't know what kind of expense they incur for these idronics booklets, but it has to be substantial and I, for one, am very grateful. Put the 16 of them together and you have one helluva text book.
It wouldn't mean as much if they didn't have great products but they do.
Thanks Caleffi for the continuing education you make available to anyone and everyone who wants to better their game.
I Just got #16 in the mail.
I don't know what kind of expense they incur for these idronics booklets, but it has to be substantial and I, for one, am very grateful. Put the 16 of them together and you have one helluva text book.
It wouldn't mean as much if they didn't have great products but they do.
Thanks Caleffi for the continuing education you make available to anyone and everyone who wants to better their game.
Re: Is there a heating expert Richard McGrath on here?
Three degree room differential?
On a 50 degree OAT day and all the windows in the house open? And all the rooms in the house were between 48.5 and 51.5 degrees?
Sounds about right. Well within the range of the average wall thermostat set at 50 degrees. It should never come on.
Good Job.
On a 50 degree OAT day and all the windows in the house open? And all the rooms in the house were between 48.5 and 51.5 degrees?
Sounds about right. Well within the range of the average wall thermostat set at 50 degrees. It should never come on.
Good Job.
Re: Is there a heating expert Richard McGrath on here?
Sounds like you did not like some advise you were given on one site so you figured you would go to another for a bit of bashing?
Glad to here you system works so well, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Now run along.....
Glad to here you system works so well, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Now run along.....
Zman
7