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Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
That's why everyone is looking at the mag sep add on. Grab as much as possible first trip. We put X amount of ferrite in a circuit and measure what collects.
Still the best plan would be to treat the problem, not the symptom. Why are we seeing the iron ferrite. Has it always been flowing around the systems? I've really never looked for it until it started showing up in permanent magnet circs.
One thing to remember about vortex separation, it takes some fairly high velocities to make them work. We built a clear plastic version, connected to a Grundfos Magna so we could dial in exact flow rate Connected the ultrasonic flow meters to confirm.
As we see more and more variable speed circ on both side, boiler and distribution, the ability to use vortex separation efficiently may be in question. Or perhaps program the pumps to assure high velocities for certain periods of time, then modulate.
Having built clear samples of both, no question the media type seperators are amazingly effective from very low, to well over the normal velocities you would expect to see in typical hydronics. We run 'em out to 10- 12 fps on the test bench
Still the best plan would be to treat the problem, not the symptom. Why are we seeing the iron ferrite. Has it always been flowing around the systems? I've really never looked for it until it started showing up in permanent magnet circs.
One thing to remember about vortex separation, it takes some fairly high velocities to make them work. We built a clear plastic version, connected to a Grundfos Magna so we could dial in exact flow rate Connected the ultrasonic flow meters to confirm.
As we see more and more variable speed circ on both side, boiler and distribution, the ability to use vortex separation efficiently may be in question. Or perhaps program the pumps to assure high velocities for certain periods of time, then modulate.
Having built clear samples of both, no question the media type seperators are amazingly effective from very low, to well over the normal velocities you would expect to see in typical hydronics. We run 'em out to 10- 12 fps on the test bench
hot_rod
5
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
Thing is 50 passes later the ECM circ gets its share no? I guess when dealing with old systems it comes down to what's there. Old gravity, old copper where the boiler, and circ may have been the only ferrous components?
Gordy
5
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
The Caleffi dirt cal products will take down to a 5 micron particle within 50 passes. The magnet is an extra protection intended to catch small particles on first pass
It would take a very fine mesh to get to that protection, and need frequent cleaning. Separators cause the particles to fall down out of the flow. We have done extensive testing to get confirmation that we can catch those small particles
It would take a very fine mesh to get to that protection, and need frequent cleaning. Separators cause the particles to fall down out of the flow. We have done extensive testing to get confirmation that we can catch those small particles
hot_rod
5
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
Gordy,Yes You are right Harvey. I'm just thinking out loud is all simple, and cheap. I guess you would have to isolate the pipe section with something non ferrous, if it were ferrous piping, and hope for capture on the first pass.
If you had a magnetic she'll that all the fluid passed through, wouldn't that magnetize the iron/steel particles and cause them to stick to any steel in the system?
I think fernox has a good idea with their sheathed magnetic rod that inserts the full length into the center of the fluid stream.http://www.fernox.com/equipment/filters/tf1+total+filter
Gordy
5
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
Gordy,
If you had a magnetic she'll that all the fluid passed through, wouldn't that magnetize the iron/steel particles and cause them to stick to any steel in the system?
I think fernox has a good idea with their sheathed magnetic rod that inserts the full length into the center of the fluid stream.http://www.fernox.com/equipment/filters/tf1+total+filter
If you had a magnetic she'll that all the fluid passed through, wouldn't that magnetize the iron/steel particles and cause them to stick to any steel in the system?
I think fernox has a good idea with their sheathed magnetic rod that inserts the full length into the center of the fluid stream.http://www.fernox.com/equipment/filters/tf1+total+filter
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
Filters would cause to much head loss to the system, and a moving target as filter gets filled. The vortex seperaters do not add hardly any head to the system. The pipe with a removable magnetic shell would not add any headloss until the pipe walls start collecting a fair amount of debris. But you could up the pipe size one or two, and create more surface area to collect, slow velocity a tad through this wide spot in the road, and probably get by for quite a while before needing to remove, and clean.
Gordy
5
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
Gordy: That's exactly what I was thinking -- a chunk of removable pipe with a magnetic shell around it.
The only other thing I can think of that I would be able to implement easily with equipment I already own is this: A high flow/low head screw-on filter (such as we use on constant-duty heavy equipment cooling systems) with isolation valves and an air bleeder. I'll have to check out the actual filter specs and info, but I know they're rated up to at least 300* F and 75 psi. Just don't recall if they're paper elements or some kind of mesh. The filter adapters we use are generally piped for 1" or 1-1/4" NPT with a mounting plate, with the filter screwing on from below. The filters themselves are about 18" long and 5-6" diameter...and pretty cheap in the grand scheme.
Then again, a good dirt mag would probably be cheaper and better in the long run anyway.
I might be way out there on this one...just happened to think about it while reading through new posts. I know for a fact that despite flushing and cleaning, there's still a fair amount of crud floating through my system, and god-knows-what settled into the bottoms of my 100 year old radiators. Given the option to have one installed originally, I definitely would have...unfortunately, like many, the bulk of my HeatingHelp education came after the fact (ha).
The only other thing I can think of that I would be able to implement easily with equipment I already own is this: A high flow/low head screw-on filter (such as we use on constant-duty heavy equipment cooling systems) with isolation valves and an air bleeder. I'll have to check out the actual filter specs and info, but I know they're rated up to at least 300* F and 75 psi. Just don't recall if they're paper elements or some kind of mesh. The filter adapters we use are generally piped for 1" or 1-1/4" NPT with a mounting plate, with the filter screwing on from below. The filters themselves are about 18" long and 5-6" diameter...and pretty cheap in the grand scheme.
Then again, a good dirt mag would probably be cheaper and better in the long run anyway.
I might be way out there on this one...just happened to think about it while reading through new posts. I know for a fact that despite flushing and cleaning, there's still a fair amount of crud floating through my system, and god-knows-what settled into the bottoms of my 100 year old radiators. Given the option to have one installed originally, I definitely would have...unfortunately, like many, the bulk of my HeatingHelp education came after the fact (ha).
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
I never thought about the permanent magnet, makes sense.Out of curiosity why are ECM circulators more prone to failure due to iron oxide than traditional circulators?Conventional wet rotor circs are built using PSC motors, a type of single phase induction motor. Induction motors do not have permanent magnets in them.
DJD775
5
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
Maybe magnetic dirt separators need to be a required system component like an x tank.
Are the dirt mags actually doing a good job. I mean getting iron out of a magnetic dirt sep on a system says it's working, but is it capturing everything? How many laps in a system does super fine iron oxide need to make before its trapped. Maybe more powerful magnets? Maybe a length of piping that's removable for cleaning with a magnetic shell 12" long right before the circ. Just thinking out loud of increasing magnetic surface capturing area. Vortex method is good, but I think suspended fine particals sneak by.
Are the dirt mags actually doing a good job. I mean getting iron out of a magnetic dirt sep on a system says it's working, but is it capturing everything? How many laps in a system does super fine iron oxide need to make before its trapped. Maybe more powerful magnets? Maybe a length of piping that's removable for cleaning with a magnetic shell 12" long right before the circ. Just thinking out loud of increasing magnetic surface capturing area. Vortex method is good, but I think suspended fine particals sneak by.
Gordy
5
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
Out of curiosity why are ECM circulators more prone to failure due to iron oxide than traditional circulators?Conventional wet rotor circs are built using PSC motors, a type of single phase induction motor. Induction motors do not have permanent magnets in them.
SWEI
5