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Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
Henry's law states that when a fluid is heated it holds less dissolved solids. Bottles law deals states that when the pressure increases, the volume decreases which is why a diaphragm tanks is used in a system to accept the expansion of the water when heated. Check the web for both Henry and Boyles Law. It applies to what we do everyday.The only thing that changes the volume of water is temperature. It is a hydraulic fluid that is incompressible. Unless you are talking on the atomic level and the change in volume when pressure is applied, would be so minute we would be unable to measure it.
Deionized water is cool and helps tremendously but only helps. Corrosion can still occur. Inhibitors help in addition to but need to be checked at some interval.
I know for sure that a higher temp of water has a higher affinity to absorb salt. Whether the same holds true for other dissolvable solids, I'm not sure.
I know for a fact that Henry's Law is a gas law and addresses the absorption of gasses in fluids dependant on temp. As much as I have studied it, I have not come across the reference to dissolvable solids. Could you point me in the right direction. I like learning new things.
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
If memory serves me I think folks at Mestek when they came out with the KN series of boilers (cast iron condensing) and the Ray (also cast iron now the KN2) they had done some work on iron content in the water.
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
Henry's law states that when a fluid is heated it holds less dissolved solids. Bottles law deals states that when the pressure increases, the volume decreases which is why a diaphragm tanks is used in a system to accept the expansion of the water when heated. Check the web for both Henry and Boyles Law. It applies to what we do everyday.So if I wanted to dissolve salt or sugar in water it would go into solution easier if the water was cold? I don't think so.
Deionized water is cool and helps tremendously but only helps. Corrosion can still occur. Inhibitors help in addition to but need to be checked at some interval.
DJD775
5
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
Henry's law states that when a fluid is heated it holds less dissolved solids. Bottles law deals states that when the pressure increases, the volume decreases which is why a diaphragm tanks is used in a system to accept the expansion of the water when heated. Check the web for both Henry and Boyles Law. It applies to what we do everyday.
Deionized water is cool and helps tremendously but only helps. Corrosion can still occur. Inhibitors help in addition to but need to be checked at some interval.
Deionized water is cool and helps tremendously but only helps. Corrosion can still occur. Inhibitors help in addition to but need to be checked at some interval.
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
If "Deionization" is anything like RO, it's my understanding and experience (in plumbing) that you open yourself up to a multitude of unintended consequences.What are those unintended consequences Ice? Keeping in mind the system being closed loop with a sacrificial anode and/or a PH buffer.
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
If "Deionization" is anything like RO, it's my understanding and experience (in plumbing) that you open yourself up to a multitude of unintended consequences.
"Henry's Law" explains a lot of the unexplained for me.
They stick this clip on your finger and it can tell the O2/Oxygen level in your blood. There are parameters.
If water consists of one part Hydrogen, and two parts Oxygen, there must be a Oxygen Parameter in water, We know that water can hold varying levels of dissolved oxygen. If oxidation of metal is caused by Oxygen, is there a minimum level of O2 in water that helps slow down oxidation?
If the oxygen levels in a pond level are decreased below a certain level, fish will die. Same if the levels become too high.
My wife's horse is sick. Last night it was getting an IV. I noticed that there was a water level in the drip tube. They added another upper bag to get the flow to speed up. The level went up 3/4" in the drip tube. There were air bubbles from the old level down, and none to the new and higher level. Where did the bubbles come from? Its a closed system. The IV bag has to be high enough to overcome the blood pressure in the body. It can't run backwards. I'm curious. About such things.
Were the bubbles from the water? Or from Oxygen being forced through the clear plastic tube like it is supposed to happen with non barrier PEX tubing?
"Henry's Law" explains a lot of the unexplained for me.
They stick this clip on your finger and it can tell the O2/Oxygen level in your blood. There are parameters.
If water consists of one part Hydrogen, and two parts Oxygen, there must be a Oxygen Parameter in water, We know that water can hold varying levels of dissolved oxygen. If oxidation of metal is caused by Oxygen, is there a minimum level of O2 in water that helps slow down oxidation?
If the oxygen levels in a pond level are decreased below a certain level, fish will die. Same if the levels become too high.
My wife's horse is sick. Last night it was getting an IV. I noticed that there was a water level in the drip tube. They added another upper bag to get the flow to speed up. The level went up 3/4" in the drip tube. There were air bubbles from the old level down, and none to the new and higher level. Where did the bubbles come from? Its a closed system. The IV bag has to be high enough to overcome the blood pressure in the body. It can't run backwards. I'm curious. About such things.
Were the bubbles from the water? Or from Oxygen being forced through the clear plastic tube like it is supposed to happen with non barrier PEX tubing?
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
I agree with Harvey on Henry's Law. It does not apply to solids.
Gordy
5
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
Some of the hydraulic valves we deal with at work, can't handle 5 micron particles. I know, it's a different animal,but enough of those particles, and you have a problem. We use a filter with a bypass indicator. The pump can't be dead-headed. Something like that would be childs-play for Caleffi engineers. The whole package... a DirtMag pre-filter with a secondary filter w/ bypass(pop-up indicator).
Paul48
5
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
Anybody ever hear of "Henry's Law"? Water can hold "X" amount of dissolved solids in solution. But whe you heat water up, those undisolved solids come out of solution in the form of a gas (air in the system) or solids (sludge, dirt and sludge) in the system or boiler. Henry's Law is always at work in the system especially more pronounced when you fill a system with fresh water. Now let's mix some dissimilar metals in the system connect by water and you get electrolysis and electrolysis creates acids. These acids break down the metal in the system and "Wa La", iron oxides and lots of other stuff. We all know soot in the heat exchanger cause a loss of efficiency. We need to ask ourselves if this stuff we created in the water side of the system acts like soot in the heat exchanger and the answer is YES. We make heat efficiently and transfer the same into the water, the water gets moved by the circ but it can't get out of the pipe due to the coating created on the inside surface of the pipe. Fernox has proven this with many studies. The have a solution. You can clean the system with the cleaner, treat the system with the inhibitor and if the system is real big or has lots of stuff in it, they have a machine with a very nice size motor on it to speed up the process. Then there's the TF1 bypass unit that has a magnet in it to help us remove iron oxide.I was under the impression that Henry's law deals with gasses, no?
Fernox has proven that if you install a new 90+% boiler in a system that hasn't been cleaned and treated, that boiler can end up in the high 80's % efficiency range and you'll never get it back with out cleaning and treating.
Food for thought: the next time you install a new high efficient unit, ask yourselves this knowing what's being created in the system, have we really helped our customer.
If an ostrich is being chased by a lion, and the ostrich does what it does when stressed and sticks its head in the ground, does the lion stop attacking and go away?
Please do not think for one minute that this water quality issue is just a bunch of "hogwash". It's real and we should have been looking at this years ago.
Everything else I agree on.
There is another alternative to chemical treatment that I am in favor of. That consists of deionization of the system water. This will lower the TDS and the conductivity of the fluid. Then a sacrificial anode is placed inline. Elysater has good information on this technology.
Re: Iron Oxide Limitations With ECM Circs
Anybody ever hear of "Henry's Law"? Water can hold "X" amount of dissolved solids in solution. But whe you heat water up, those undisolved solids come out of solution in the form of a gas (air in the system) or solids (sludge, dirt and sludge) in the system or boiler. Henry's Law is always at work in the system especially more pronounced when you fill a system with fresh water. Now let's mix some dissimilar metals in the system connect by water and you get electrolysis and electrolysis creates acids. These acids break down the metal in the system and "Wa La", iron oxides and lots of other stuff. We all know soot in the heat exchanger cause a loss of efficiency. We need to ask ourselves if this stuff we created in the water side of the system acts like soot in the heat exchanger and the answer is YES. We make heat efficiently and transfer the same into the water, the water gets moved by the circ but it can't get out of the pipe due to the coating created on the inside surface of the pipe. Fernox has proven this with many studies. The have a solution. You can clean the system with the cleaner, treat the system with the inhibitor and if the system is real big or has lots of stuff in it, they have a machine with a very nice size motor on it to speed up the process. Then there's the TF1 bypass unit that has a magnet in it to help us remove iron oxide.
Fernox has proven that if you install a new 90+% boiler in a system that hasn't been cleaned and treated, that boiler can end up in the high 80's % efficiency range and you'll never get it back with out cleaning and treating.
Food for thought: the next time you install a new high efficient unit, ask yourselves this knowing what's being created in the system, have we really helped our customer.
If an ostrich is being chased by a lion, and the ostrich does what it does when stressed and sticks its head in the ground, does the lion stop attacking and go away?
Please do not think for one minute that this water quality issue is just a bunch of "hogwash". It's real and we should have been looking at this years ago.
Fernox has proven that if you install a new 90+% boiler in a system that hasn't been cleaned and treated, that boiler can end up in the high 80's % efficiency range and you'll never get it back with out cleaning and treating.
Food for thought: the next time you install a new high efficient unit, ask yourselves this knowing what's being created in the system, have we really helped our customer.
If an ostrich is being chased by a lion, and the ostrich does what it does when stressed and sticks its head in the ground, does the lion stop attacking and go away?
Please do not think for one minute that this water quality issue is just a bunch of "hogwash". It's real and we should have been looking at this years ago.