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Re: Dan Holohan Retires After 36 Years of Writing Magazine Columns
1993 bought my 2nd battle scarred Detroit apartment building. the 1st was well maintained and turn key. The next was out of a scary movie. Forclosure with squaters and a drugs flowing in and out of the building. Water poured out of the 1 million BTU Burnham when I went to fire it up. So I Bought a 700,000 BTU Utica boiler. Installed from scratch it but was lost on the mechanics. Found The Lost Art of Steam Heating and went to total of 3 seminars in Detroit. Still have a "Dead Men" banner from the last one. Without Dan and his book I would never have made it. Vaporstats, down firing boiler, and all the tricks. Two pipe systems with thermostats. Dan educated me. It was a great ride by a guy who cared to make it fun to learn all this. The guns shots daily did not matter because I cut the gas bill in 1/2 ! ( added insulation to the attic, where there was NONE from 1927) Gas company came out with metal detectors to follow the gas line. They thought we were stealing gas ! Saving money and learning a lot while having fun. Thank you Dan for all your help especially for all us low budget inner city guys like me. You are absolutely the best in the steam heat world ! Thank you very, very much.
Re: Dan Holohan Retires After 36 Years of Writing Magazine Columns
Dan & Erin,
Starting out in sales around 1987 - Dan Holohan was a breath of fresh air to a young sales guy wanting to learn more about our trade and offer more value to his growing customer base. Working for a wholesaler in Scranton, PA we all started hearing whispers of a book called the LOST ART of STEAM and a charismatic guy that would come do seminars on these topics.
Starting out in sales around 1987 - Dan Holohan was a breath of fresh air to a young sales guy wanting to learn more about our trade and offer more value to his growing customer base. Working for a wholesaler in Scranton, PA we all started hearing whispers of a book called the LOST ART of STEAM and a charismatic guy that would come do seminars on these topics.
Somehow this young energetic, story teller came
to the Scranton / Wilkes-Barre area and filed every venue he booked, and sold that maroon colored book called TLAOS...he was groundbreaking because he not only taught, but he made something that was very dry(like steam should be) be very interesting because of his way of teaching (engagement)....
Back then we were so grateful and absorbed every word he uttered, because we knew it could help us, and back in those early days you could pick up the phone and call Dan on the phone (for you young people a phone is something u can talk to each other on) - Dan would pick up and weather he remembered you or not it was like talking to your best friend from Long Island!!!
Dan, I am so very sorry for the loss of your lovely Marianne, anyone you talked to, read your books, or was in the "Wall" knew the women behind the steam guy form Long Island. Please know you, Marianne, and your girls are in our continued prayers.
to the Scranton / Wilkes-Barre area and filed every venue he booked, and sold that maroon colored book called TLAOS...he was groundbreaking because he not only taught, but he made something that was very dry(like steam should be) be very interesting because of his way of teaching (engagement)....
Back then we were so grateful and absorbed every word he uttered, because we knew it could help us, and back in those early days you could pick up the phone and call Dan on the phone (for you young people a phone is something u can talk to each other on) - Dan would pick up and weather he remembered you or not it was like talking to your best friend from Long Island!!!
Dan, I am so very sorry for the loss of your lovely Marianne, anyone you talked to, read your books, or was in the "Wall" knew the women behind the steam guy form Long Island. Please know you, Marianne, and your girls are in our continued prayers.
I will speak for myself by saying I for one will surly miss opening our trade magazines and finding your article, but your legacy will last forever because you made all of us smarter, questions what is that and what does is do & for gods sake do not remove it from that system, or the point of no
pressure change, or the use of funny pictures or videos in your seminars.
pressure change, or the use of funny pictures or videos in your seminars.
You changed our industry for the better, and I know I'll be recommending all your books to the younger generation as I become one of the old guys in our industry.
On behave of all that love you, and are greatful you and Marianne came into all of our lives.
Thanks for sharing yourself with all of us.
Jim
Re: Point of no pressure change
Took me some time to understand the concept. I took a one day seminar where Dan Holohan was the instructor and he was able to drive the concept home. He used the diagram that Bob hot_rod Rohr posted above. There is a video of that seminar and if you look here 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awxeWBxC4Aw at time stamp 13:00. I would watch it from the beginning but you can start at 13:00. If you like to hear the history then keep going. If you get board with the history, then fast forward to minute 22:00 for the explanation of how the PONPC will be affected by the circulator location.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awxeWBxC4Aw at time stamp 13:00. I would watch it from the beginning but you can start at 13:00. If you like to hear the history then keep going. If you get board with the history, then fast forward to minute 22:00 for the explanation of how the PONPC will be affected by the circulator location.
Re: Are mod-con high efficiency boilers false economy Vs traditional cast iron over a longer time frame?
@hot_rod We have the boilers serviced and cleaned every year, new nozzles installed, and the combustion gases analyzed and the air settings adjusted as needed. Stack temperature is 420 gross/350 net, 12% CO2, with draft set to specs. It's a 3-story brick chimney in the center of the house, so only the attic portion and above the roof is exposed to atmospheric temps. Terra cotta liner. We just had the chimney inspected for possible conversion to gas burners. Very experienced, reputable local sweep inspected the chimney and said it was fine, though we would have to line it for a gas conversion, which we ultimately decided not to do.suppose 80% of the year you could run 129f supply? Not unheard if with over radiated homesLOL, this is true. We runHave you measured the flue gas temperature? Especially at the top of the termination? Condensation can be happening in the flue that you don’t observe in the firebox. Is it brick chimney or B vent?suppose 80% of the year you could run 129f supply? Not unheard if with over radiated homesLOL, this is true. We run
Vent pipes are standard single-wall galvanized 7" two-into-one, with larger diameter at/after the tee where the second boiler tees in. They've been there 25+ years with no evidence of deterioration or condensation.
With both boilers running 45-minute cold start cycles with supply water temps mostly under 130 and never exceeding 140, everyone keeps warning me these things should be condensing somewhere, but no one can find any condensation and everything is in good condition after 25+ years. It's a mystery.
jesmed1
2
Good demo of steam expansion, condensation and air pressure
I always recalled my HS physics class where the teacher boiled water in a gallon gas can, capped and cooled it. Steam expands 1700 in volume to liquid water. This old Julius Sumner film demos this and the power of normal air pressure and condensation of steam.
📸 Watch this video on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/share/v/RWJUX1KsRyLkHgLJ/?mibextid=0csxmW
CarlM
1
Re: Are mod-con high efficiency boilers false economy Vs traditional cast iron over a longer time frame?
Brick ceramic lined on outside needs a liner always in my book unless the home owners wants to pay a mansory contractor to re point and repair ,Andy then line it .b vent usually is not a issue usually if ran inside the house in a chase but when installed In a framed out box outdoors there can be issue w the roll out switch and spill switch due to the b vent cold temp ,it happens .. as stated before most if not all masonry chimneys on outside needs to be lined or pay some big bucks to repair and not line only to suffer the same damages in a few years . My adage is repairs and line it and be done ,no liner mansonary repairs are in the crystal ball of the future . Any contractor who shrugs off talking about the chimney are not the educated contractor you want ,they just want the sale ,they offer nothing for your benefit . My mantra is yeah I include a lots of stuff that most would not do or think about ,the reason is different concerns there’s is there pocket book mine is both of yours. But a lot don’t see it that way and I’m really good w that that’s why we live in the free est country in the world and any adult can make a decission weather informed or uninformed . Gotta love this country home of the free thanks to the brave .
Peace and good luck clammy
Peace and good luck clammy
clammy
1
Re: Are mod-con high efficiency boilers false economy Vs traditional cast iron over a longer time frame?
@flat_twin
I think that is great that your learned your boiler and system and bought the equipment to clean and service it.
Most customers are not going to be able to do that. Which will last longer a neglected CI boiler or a neglected Mod Con?
Granted neither situation is any good. Either one could fail, either one could make CO.
But the neglected CI boiler unless the sections crack and leak will be able to be kept running for 30 years or more. If the boiler doesn't leak anything on that boiler can be fixed with standard parts even if the boiler mfg goes out of business with 1 exception.......the burners.
A Mod Con can't do that.
And I am not against Mod Cons. They are great on the right job, there great when maintained and they are great when the MFG still has parts and parts availability is an issue. And it shouldn't be after 20+ years of Mod Cons.
I think that is great that your learned your boiler and system and bought the equipment to clean and service it.
Most customers are not going to be able to do that. Which will last longer a neglected CI boiler or a neglected Mod Con?
Granted neither situation is any good. Either one could fail, either one could make CO.
But the neglected CI boiler unless the sections crack and leak will be able to be kept running for 30 years or more. If the boiler doesn't leak anything on that boiler can be fixed with standard parts even if the boiler mfg goes out of business with 1 exception.......the burners.
A Mod Con can't do that.
And I am not against Mod Cons. They are great on the right job, there great when maintained and they are great when the MFG still has parts and parts availability is an issue. And it shouldn't be after 20+ years of Mod Cons.
Re: What temp for a shop?
I am going to have to chew on this for about a week, but if I figure it out and can actually do it, I feel like at that point I should fly to Las Vegas and bet it all!LOL, you'll get the hang of it. I use this website to download historical/recent degree-day data for any location:
Very cool answer, I will try it out for a bit.
Where did you find the degree day info?
https://www.degreedays.net/
You can pick your nearest airport and enter its airport code, then specify the time period you want the data for.
jesmed1
1
Re: What temp for a shop?
The heat loss of your steel building is proportional to the delta T, or difference between indoor and outdoor temperature, which varies of course.
In Montpelier VT, the outdoor design temperature is -6 degrees, so at 63 degrees indoor you'd have a delta T of 69 degrees. (The outdoor design temperature means that 99% of the time, the outdoor temperature will be higher, so this is your "worst case" design target for a heating system.)
If you knew how much propane you had to burn per hour to maintain that 69 degree delta T, you could then scale that number with different delta T's to find your burn rate at different outdoor and indoor temps, but you don't know that number to start with.
So an alternate method is to look up the number of heating degree days for the period over which you burned 390 gallons of propane. For Montpelier, you had 1009 heating degree days over the last 5 weeks (35 days, which is close enough to your 36 day period). Now you can divide 1009/390=2.6 degree days per gallon.
So now you know that for every 2.6 heating degree days, you burn 1 gallon of propane. One heating degree day is 24 hours during which the outdoor temperature averaged 1 degree below your indoor temperature. So with an outdoor temperature of -6 and a resulting delta T of 69, you're probably burning 69/2.6=26.5 gallons of propane per day, or 1.1 gallons per hour.
Now you have a ballpark burn rate of propane per hour based on a delta T of 69 (1.1 gallons/hr). And you can scale that for different delta T's. Suppose you want to raise the indoor temp to 70, which gives you a delta T of 76. 76/69 x 1.1 = 1.2 gallons/hr. So now you're burning 1.2 gal/hr instead of 1.1 gal/hr.
Of course, 99% of the time your outdoor temp is above -6. On a more average day, say it's 30 degrees. Then your delta T is 63-30=33, and your burn rate is 33/69 x 1.1 = 0.5 gal/hr. Or for an indoor temp of 70 degrees, it would be 70-30=40, and your burn rate is 40/69 x 1.1 = 0.6 gal/hr. So on that day, it costs you 0.1 gal/hr more propane to heat to 70 vs. 63.
So now you can play around with different delta T's based on different indoor and outdoor temperatures. For any given delta T, divide by 69 and multiply by 1.1 to get your gallon per hour burn rate.
This ignores a number of complicating factors, but it's accurate to a first approximation.
In Montpelier VT, the outdoor design temperature is -6 degrees, so at 63 degrees indoor you'd have a delta T of 69 degrees. (The outdoor design temperature means that 99% of the time, the outdoor temperature will be higher, so this is your "worst case" design target for a heating system.)
If you knew how much propane you had to burn per hour to maintain that 69 degree delta T, you could then scale that number with different delta T's to find your burn rate at different outdoor and indoor temps, but you don't know that number to start with.
So an alternate method is to look up the number of heating degree days for the period over which you burned 390 gallons of propane. For Montpelier, you had 1009 heating degree days over the last 5 weeks (35 days, which is close enough to your 36 day period). Now you can divide 1009/390=2.6 degree days per gallon.
So now you know that for every 2.6 heating degree days, you burn 1 gallon of propane. One heating degree day is 24 hours during which the outdoor temperature averaged 1 degree below your indoor temperature. So with an outdoor temperature of -6 and a resulting delta T of 69, you're probably burning 69/2.6=26.5 gallons of propane per day, or 1.1 gallons per hour.
Now you have a ballpark burn rate of propane per hour based on a delta T of 69 (1.1 gallons/hr). And you can scale that for different delta T's. Suppose you want to raise the indoor temp to 70, which gives you a delta T of 76. 76/69 x 1.1 = 1.2 gallons/hr. So now you're burning 1.2 gal/hr instead of 1.1 gal/hr.
Of course, 99% of the time your outdoor temp is above -6. On a more average day, say it's 30 degrees. Then your delta T is 63-30=33, and your burn rate is 33/69 x 1.1 = 0.5 gal/hr. Or for an indoor temp of 70 degrees, it would be 70-30=40, and your burn rate is 40/69 x 1.1 = 0.6 gal/hr. So on that day, it costs you 0.1 gal/hr more propane to heat to 70 vs. 63.
So now you can play around with different delta T's based on different indoor and outdoor temperatures. For any given delta T, divide by 69 and multiply by 1.1 to get your gallon per hour burn rate.
This ignores a number of complicating factors, but it's accurate to a first approximation.
jesmed1
2
Re: Are mod-con high efficiency boilers false economy Vs traditional cast iron over a longer time frame?
I agree with @SuperTech & @tim smith above. The number don't favor mod cons unless you can keep them condensing.
If the Homeowner can do his own service that helps.
I am very Leary due parts availability and parts prices. A blower motor assembly can cost 1/4-1/3 the cost of a whole new boiler. After 10-15 years (maybe less) the mfg has moved on to a different design and parts are no longer available
I have seen mod cons work great on the right installation.
We used then to heat a 100,000 gallon tank located outside that stored fire sprinkler water at 50 degrees. They condensed all the time and two 200,000 btu mod cons replaced an oversized 1,500,000 btu gas fired atmospheric boiler.
They save enough in gas costs to pay for the entire job in less than a year. But that is a commercial job.
As @tim smith mentioned residential is different.
If the Homeowner can do his own service that helps.
I am very Leary due parts availability and parts prices. A blower motor assembly can cost 1/4-1/3 the cost of a whole new boiler. After 10-15 years (maybe less) the mfg has moved on to a different design and parts are no longer available
I have seen mod cons work great on the right installation.
We used then to heat a 100,000 gallon tank located outside that stored fire sprinkler water at 50 degrees. They condensed all the time and two 200,000 btu mod cons replaced an oversized 1,500,000 btu gas fired atmospheric boiler.
They save enough in gas costs to pay for the entire job in less than a year. But that is a commercial job.
As @tim smith mentioned residential is different.