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Re: Montgomery Ward coal fired Water Heater
Hi, That's a coal fired side-arm water heater. It would have been hooked up to a tank, and water would flow by convection from the bottom of the tank into the back side of your heater...then out the top and back into a connection high on the side of the tank. I'm thinking you would adjust the burn rate by sliding the knob up on the side of the heater to give it more or less air. Just guessing it was made in the 20s or 30s.
I would not use it as a wood stove as dry firing will likely damage it. You could use a pump controlled by a thermal snap switch to move hot water from it. You'll also want a relief valve and expansion tank in the system. The heater has a cast iron water heating chamber on top, so like any boiler, you need to prevent dry firing and thermal shock. It looks like a fun project 😎
Yours, Larry
I would not use it as a wood stove as dry firing will likely damage it. You could use a pump controlled by a thermal snap switch to move hot water from it. You'll also want a relief valve and expansion tank in the system. The heater has a cast iron water heating chamber on top, so like any boiler, you need to prevent dry firing and thermal shock. It looks like a fun project 😎
Yours, Larry
Re: Modcon vs CI Gas Usage - Baseboard Heat
Some additional thoughts. I'd guess not many CI boilers ever run at the rated efficiencies. Certainly not zoned ones as the Cycle Efficiency is the determining factor. IF, and most are, the boiler is oversized then cycle efficiency goes down even more. We have done examples here where actual efficiency drops into the low 70% on zoned, oversized CI on fin tube systems.
Some suggestions, upgrade the envelop first. Even a weatherstrip upgrade can make a difference, as infiltration can rob a lot of your fuel $$
Next do a room by room heat load calc, followed by a fin tube assessment. How low of a SWT can you actually run will now become clear.
Next look up some 20 year weather data. How often are you at design, or below in your area? Probably 80% of the heating system you are below design. So 80% of the time the CI boiler, properly sized is oversized and cycle efficiency starts to chip away at the operating cost. Even on a single zone system!
The higher the temperature required at the fin tube the more loss through the wall to the outdoors. Fin running at 140 loses less through the wall build up, than a 180F system. A simple delta T formula.
So a mod con, properly sized, installed and set up, addresses all the efficiency robbing concerns.
It may modulate down to the lowest zone load. ODR keeps the SWT matching the heat load fairly accurately. Ramp delay, anti short cycling can be used if it is a micro-zoned system where small loads fall below the lowest turn down. These all come into play even if it never condenses!
Below is BIN data is for upstate NY, but I suspect the trends would be similar for L.I, as far as % of design. I believe 0 or 5 above is design in this upstate area.
If you can get SWT down around 150 or lower, design day, the mod cons will really sing fig 3-6. Mod con efficiency goes up as they run at low turn down, fig 3-31. Widen the operating delta to 30° to lower the return even more. It's the return to the boiler that dictates the condensing operation.
Also a slide from Viessmann training regarding reducing SWT and ODR usage. With a CI boiler you are limited on how aggressively you can set the ODR and protect the boiler from extended cold run time.
That leaves the question of maintenance cost, life expectancy. That will be debated till the end of time.
I started a file of mod con cleaning from IG, with poster permission. I've seen boilers that hadn't been serviced in 8 years looking very clean when opened. And boilers opened after one year 1/4 full of mouse turd deposits.
I feel intake air filter and proper burner set up the first year and a check after a year has a lot to do with the combustion side condition.
So it comes down to number crunching first, or talking with folks that have made the mod con transition on CI fin tube systems in your area, for some case study data
Some suggestions, upgrade the envelop first. Even a weatherstrip upgrade can make a difference, as infiltration can rob a lot of your fuel $$
Next do a room by room heat load calc, followed by a fin tube assessment. How low of a SWT can you actually run will now become clear.
Next look up some 20 year weather data. How often are you at design, or below in your area? Probably 80% of the heating system you are below design. So 80% of the time the CI boiler, properly sized is oversized and cycle efficiency starts to chip away at the operating cost. Even on a single zone system!
The higher the temperature required at the fin tube the more loss through the wall to the outdoors. Fin running at 140 loses less through the wall build up, than a 180F system. A simple delta T formula.
So a mod con, properly sized, installed and set up, addresses all the efficiency robbing concerns.
It may modulate down to the lowest zone load. ODR keeps the SWT matching the heat load fairly accurately. Ramp delay, anti short cycling can be used if it is a micro-zoned system where small loads fall below the lowest turn down. These all come into play even if it never condenses!
Below is BIN data is for upstate NY, but I suspect the trends would be similar for L.I, as far as % of design. I believe 0 or 5 above is design in this upstate area.
If you can get SWT down around 150 or lower, design day, the mod cons will really sing fig 3-6. Mod con efficiency goes up as they run at low turn down, fig 3-31. Widen the operating delta to 30° to lower the return even more. It's the return to the boiler that dictates the condensing operation.
Also a slide from Viessmann training regarding reducing SWT and ODR usage. With a CI boiler you are limited on how aggressively you can set the ODR and protect the boiler from extended cold run time.
That leaves the question of maintenance cost, life expectancy. That will be debated till the end of time.
I started a file of mod con cleaning from IG, with poster permission. I've seen boilers that hadn't been serviced in 8 years looking very clean when opened. And boilers opened after one year 1/4 full of mouse turd deposits.
I feel intake air filter and proper burner set up the first year and a check after a year has a lot to do with the combustion side condition.
So it comes down to number crunching first, or talking with folks that have made the mod con transition on CI fin tube systems in your area, for some case study data
hot_rod
5
Re: Purging air with no zone valve
System off, put hose on where you indicated, put hose in a bucket in a sink. Close ball valve.
At the same time, open hose bib, and open fill valve, running water thru the system to maintain at least 12 psi while monitoring the bucket. It's a bit of a juggling act, but you don't want the pressure to drop below 12 psi, and you don't want it near 30 psi.
When all bubbles have stopped in the bucket, at the same time, close hose bib and close fill valve. It's easier and more accurate to just kink the hose to control flow. Then you can let a little water out until you're back to 12psi or whatever you need your cold fill pressure to be.
Don't forget to open up your ball valve before turning the system back on.
Based on how it's piped, recurring air issues may be a theme
Re: H.B. Smith Boiler circa 1954
I probably have some info on those I will look tomorrow. A pic will help. Made by HB Smith in Westfield, MA.
They made many different models with a few different ratings but are all basically the same. The manual wont help much I am sure the 1954 burner you have has been replaced??
That same boiler was made for at least 40 years
They made many different models with a few different ratings but are all basically the same. The manual wont help much I am sure the 1954 burner you have has been replaced??
That same boiler was made for at least 40 years
Re: Radiant Purge Viega Manifold
Unless you have a purge cart with 1/2 hp pump or larger, you will need to purge one loop at a time, takes 5 minutes or so to get all the air out of long loops
Turn the blue valve off, hook a hose to the purge cock at the other end and open one zone at a time.
Either power up the actuator on the loop, or remove the actuator to open that loop. Purge, close loop, repeat on each loop of the manifold.
The cap on the purge cap has a square wrench to open the purge cock.
Stick the purge hose into the HD bucket to see when the air bubbles stop coming out.
Turn the blue valve off, hook a hose to the purge cock at the other end and open one zone at a time.
Either power up the actuator on the loop, or remove the actuator to open that loop. Purge, close loop, repeat on each loop of the manifold.
The cap on the purge cap has a square wrench to open the purge cock.
Stick the purge hose into the HD bucket to see when the air bubbles stop coming out.
hot_rod
1
Re: Steam Pipe vs. PVC Pipe
It's in a nasty low crawl space.SteamingatMohawk said:@Chris Get out your handy dandy infrared laser thermometer and measure the temperature at the connection of the two pipes and let us know. Send us a pic, too.
Id gladly normally help out but for this I'm sorry. I don't go in there unless I have no choice.
That crawl space is Ravenholm.
ChrisJ
3
Re: DIY Steam Boiler Install
Paul, does your BFP need annual inspection?
Is it a RP type with test ports or the simple one we see here all the time. Has an in and out and relief pipe ports.
Is it a RP type with test ports or the simple one we see here all the time. Has an in and out and relief pipe ports.
JUGHNE
1
Re: Lack of combustion air?
You gotta get your analyzer up inside the draft hood, above the boiler block. Any combustion measurements taken above the draft hood are no good, except for draft on the stack. Your measurements are highly diluted by all the draft in the stack and chimney. I use a piece of 1/4" tubing attached to my probe with a small piece of rubber tubing from a manometer hose or pressure switch.Rizz861 said:@SuperTech I’m working on a gas boiler and it was measured about 12” from flue outlet. This is a rear outlet draft hood so I don’t know where else I would measure my draft and combustion readings other than where I did.
Re: Gas gun in oil burner and Chimney Liner
All chimneys must be suitable for the class of service. If you search this site, you will find me repeating this several dozen times. The code requires a liner. The liner must be properly sized and intact. Terra cotta liners are never installed properly, never hold up, run cold and sweat, and the mortar is incorrect so it erodes even if properly placed, which is rare.
The industry std. is NFPA 211. In Ch 15, you will find levels of inspection. You need a Level II internal inspection by a qualified agency. That will 100% reveal you need a liner if they're doing their jobs.
Many great points above by the guys on sizing, efficiency, condensation, etc. The liner not only contains corrosion and erosion, it sizes the flue to the appliance and, being low mass, heats up quickly to minimize backdrafting at startup. Your chimney sweep should have recommended a level II- call him.
If you check into your state and utilities, you may find incentives to do the CAT IV condensing unit now rather than wait. That money for the liner would go a long way to defraying that cost plus you begin saving on energy costs.
The industry std. is NFPA 211. In Ch 15, you will find levels of inspection. You need a Level II internal inspection by a qualified agency. That will 100% reveal you need a liner if they're doing their jobs.
Many great points above by the guys on sizing, efficiency, condensation, etc. The liner not only contains corrosion and erosion, it sizes the flue to the appliance and, being low mass, heats up quickly to minimize backdrafting at startup. Your chimney sweep should have recommended a level II- call him.
If you check into your state and utilities, you may find incentives to do the CAT IV condensing unit now rather than wait. That money for the liner would go a long way to defraying that cost plus you begin saving on energy costs.
Re: Situational Water Hammer
That means at 9oz they have to be a little over a foot below the water line. where is the water line as some of the water moves out in to the system as steam and condensate where it reaches equilibrium?
You could try as an experiment raising the cold water level to close to the top of the sight glass and see if that extra height gets rid of your late cycle issue. if it does you know you either need to get those water seals lower, make a false water line at the boiler, or add thermostatic traps.
You could try as an experiment raising the cold water level to close to the top of the sight glass and see if that extra height gets rid of your late cycle issue. if it does you know you either need to get those water seals lower, make a false water line at the boiler, or add thermostatic traps.
mattmia2
1