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Re: Another Solar Myth Bites the Dust
Excellent article Larry.
Thank you for your research and ongoing promotion of THE most efficient system in the World, that being solar thermal.
As you know, I've been involved in solar thermal since before it was even on the DOE's radar. I have a 2 panels system on my mountain home that heats the home when we aren't there, and preheats the DHW when we are there. I keep the house at 40 degrees F when we are away, so all the radiant (walls, floors ceiling) surfaces are at at around 40 degrees F when the system fires, keeping the fluids below 70 degrees F, thereby maintaining solar efficiencies that are WAY high.
I wanted to pop in here, and (once again) talk about the potential that most hydronic snow/ice melt (SIM) contractors are overlooking that is staring them right in the face. That being the possibility of turning their SIM system into a large surface area high and ultra high efficiency solar collector.
During non SIM operations, there is a LOT of free energy falling onto this surface that could be put to use, either as a simple DHW preheat, heating pools/spas, and even space heating.
My concept is one of a two stage design. 1st stage would be a semi direct exchange that transfers the solar heated glycol into a storage tank with a heat exchanger for DHW preheat. When the delta T drops to the conventional "off' point, the 2nd stage kicks in.
2nd stage slows the circulation on the source (SIM) side, and directs this low grade heat into a water to water heat pump. These heat pumps would be running at around 200 to 300% efficient (COP of 2 or 3, depending). During the warmer summer months, the system would actually harvest what I refer to as "Ambient Energy", that being sensible energy that is not directly related to the solar gain. Remember, thermal energy flows from hot to cold. These systems make a lot of sense wherever there is a constant (annual) demand for DHW, which includes residential, commercial etc.
In commercial applications, like restaurants, laundries and other high hot water demand situations, I strongly believe that we could collect more energy for water heating, than they system would use in its SIM role. I've monitored some SIM systems during the summer months, and have seen slab temperatures approaching 140 degrees F. Granted, this is a stagnated condition, but the physics for extraction are there. Typical SIM systems have 5/8" PEX installed at 9" O.C., thereby making it very conducive to extracting all this free energy. When I was the Director of the RPA, I was at a code hearing conference, sitting next to a young lady. I asked her what her interest were in code development. She told me she worked for The Sierra Club, and that she was there to recommend that all SIM systems be outlawed due to the egregious waste of a precious natural resource. I told her of my reverse solar concept, and she said that she didn't realize that it was even a potential, got up and left the meeting without making her pitch. I guess what I am trying to say here, is that the environmental lobby has SIM in their gun sights, and that we as hydronic contractors had better be proactive in our applications, and start thinking outside the box, or the government and the enviro lobby will take that box (SIM) away.
These same slabs can also work as a very efficient heat rejection system due to night sky re-radiation. I've seen my solar thermal panels sub cool below ambient as much as 20 degrees under clear night sky conditions. I could use that in my mountain home for cooling from the radiant ceilings, if needed, without even firing a compressor.
Again, thank you for your continuing efforts to promote what the good Lord gives us for free, that we need to utilize to a greater degree, that being solar thermal. Stay well my friend.
ME
Thank you for your research and ongoing promotion of THE most efficient system in the World, that being solar thermal.
As you know, I've been involved in solar thermal since before it was even on the DOE's radar. I have a 2 panels system on my mountain home that heats the home when we aren't there, and preheats the DHW when we are there. I keep the house at 40 degrees F when we are away, so all the radiant (walls, floors ceiling) surfaces are at at around 40 degrees F when the system fires, keeping the fluids below 70 degrees F, thereby maintaining solar efficiencies that are WAY high.
I wanted to pop in here, and (once again) talk about the potential that most hydronic snow/ice melt (SIM) contractors are overlooking that is staring them right in the face. That being the possibility of turning their SIM system into a large surface area high and ultra high efficiency solar collector.
During non SIM operations, there is a LOT of free energy falling onto this surface that could be put to use, either as a simple DHW preheat, heating pools/spas, and even space heating.
My concept is one of a two stage design. 1st stage would be a semi direct exchange that transfers the solar heated glycol into a storage tank with a heat exchanger for DHW preheat. When the delta T drops to the conventional "off' point, the 2nd stage kicks in.
2nd stage slows the circulation on the source (SIM) side, and directs this low grade heat into a water to water heat pump. These heat pumps would be running at around 200 to 300% efficient (COP of 2 or 3, depending). During the warmer summer months, the system would actually harvest what I refer to as "Ambient Energy", that being sensible energy that is not directly related to the solar gain. Remember, thermal energy flows from hot to cold. These systems make a lot of sense wherever there is a constant (annual) demand for DHW, which includes residential, commercial etc.
In commercial applications, like restaurants, laundries and other high hot water demand situations, I strongly believe that we could collect more energy for water heating, than they system would use in its SIM role. I've monitored some SIM systems during the summer months, and have seen slab temperatures approaching 140 degrees F. Granted, this is a stagnated condition, but the physics for extraction are there. Typical SIM systems have 5/8" PEX installed at 9" O.C., thereby making it very conducive to extracting all this free energy. When I was the Director of the RPA, I was at a code hearing conference, sitting next to a young lady. I asked her what her interest were in code development. She told me she worked for The Sierra Club, and that she was there to recommend that all SIM systems be outlawed due to the egregious waste of a precious natural resource. I told her of my reverse solar concept, and she said that she didn't realize that it was even a potential, got up and left the meeting without making her pitch. I guess what I am trying to say here, is that the environmental lobby has SIM in their gun sights, and that we as hydronic contractors had better be proactive in our applications, and start thinking outside the box, or the government and the enviro lobby will take that box (SIM) away.
These same slabs can also work as a very efficient heat rejection system due to night sky re-radiation. I've seen my solar thermal panels sub cool below ambient as much as 20 degrees under clear night sky conditions. I could use that in my mountain home for cooling from the radiant ceilings, if needed, without even firing a compressor.
Again, thank you for your continuing efforts to promote what the good Lord gives us for free, that we need to utilize to a greater degree, that being solar thermal. Stay well my friend.
ME
Re: New Gorton Stuck Vent, Investigative Surgery
@Chris_L solder that thing back together and put it back in service! Now that I’d like to see!
SgtMaj
1
Re: Timken Silent Automatic Boiler
@Bob6265 Insist that the contractor replace the near boiler piping with threaded steel pipe. No copper. Insist that the contractor size and run the pipes to at least the minimum as shown in the boiler manufacturers manual. Get out your pen and write this into the contract. Have the contractor initial this. Hold back 50% of the money until the job is done to at least the minimum standard as described in the installation manual.
Ask him if he can cut and thread steel pipe.
Ask him if he can cut and thread steel pipe.
WMno57
4
Re: Help with GPM, maybe? (newbie/ DIY)
If anything, you could benefit from turning the water temp down further. Ideally, the unit would run 24/7 on the coldest day of the year at whatever water temp and firing rate is necessary to maintain the indoor setpoint. That's very difficult to actually achieve, especially since you're using a water heater to do a boiler's job, but the closer you can get to that point the more efficient the system will be. Do not be concerned with a 3.5 hour run time, but just know that efficiency and comfort could be improved upon by reducing the supply temperature. Do NOT raise it, however.
GroundUp
1
Re: 2 thermostats on one input on a TACO SR504??
OK got the picture now. you will want the use the 24 volt NEST to operate a switching relay like the Taco SR501 attached to each unit heater. The Taco SR501 has 2 sets of NO contacts. One set of contacts will bring the fan on in series with the Aquastat that will prevent blowing cold air. The other set of contacts will bring on the circulator pump by connecting the that zone thermostat terminals on the Taco SR504.
Diagram to follow
By the way, the Aube Technologies RC840T-120 is the wrong relay for your situation.
Diagram to follow
By the way, the Aube Technologies RC840T-120 is the wrong relay for your situation.
Re: 2 thermostats on one input on a TACO SR504??
You will need two of these: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-SR501-4-1-Zone-Switching-RelayThe relay you mentioned has only one set of contacts to operate the fan on the Unit Heater. there are no extra contacts that will operate the TACO SR504 zone
The TACO SR 501 has the needed 24 VAC R, W and C terminals you need and it has the necessary contacts to turn on the 120 VAC fan motor and to operate the 24 VAC Taco SR 504
Re: steam boiler
When it comes to Water, I believe that two large residential boilers will be more efficient than one commercial boiler. There are several reasons. The first is the whole concept of sizing for the actual load is more efficient than having the oversized boiler for 90% of the heating season. If you have a boiler sized for 60% of the design load, then it is much closer to the correct size for most of the operating season. You will get to that constant operation or at least very long operating cycles for more of the heating season. Only for the 40% of the heating season that one boiler can’t handle the load will the second boiler operate. I wired the system for the second boiler to kick in automatically when the outdoor temperature reached a specific outdoor temperature. Simple basic logic easy to follow. I also had a switch that would change boiler A to be the lead boiler for the even years, and boiler B to be the lead in the odd years.
The second feature is that there is a built-in backup system if one of the boilers has a failure. I could keep the place protected from a freeze up by switching the operating boiler to be the lead boiler until I had time to repair the boiler that was down.
There are some less expensive control systems now available that can automatically do the auto lead-lag boiler switching and also have automatic second boiler operation based on demand as opposed to just an arbitrary outdoor temperature. But at the time those controls were more expensive with more features than I required for the job of this particular church. So with these new controls systems are another reason to choose two smaller boilers over one large boiler.
Steam boilers, maybe not so much. But the choice to offer two steamers to this particular church was easy because there were three zone valves on the old boiler. Two 4” valves feed the large Church wing and the large auditorium wing. A third 2” valve feeds a smaller Chapel. Finally, there was the bathrooms and two business offices that were on one of the large zones, so when the Pastor or the Secretarywas there working during the week, the large auditorium zone needed to be heated in order to heat those two offices.
The 2 boiler system would work out great because I could size one of the boilers for the largest zone EDR, the other boiler could handle the balance of the system if all 4 (yea, I added a loop of base board for the offices) Zones were calling for heat at once. This was the church that selected the one commercial boiler job, so I never needed to design a control system for 2 boilers. I did however install the optional water baseboard loop to heat the offices and bathrooms. This was a big savings, because they were able to set back the temperature on the three large steam zones. The baseboard heat was piped off of a tankless coil on the steamer. That worked great with a L4006A limit control set at 170°F in the coil aquastat tapping.
The second feature is that there is a built-in backup system if one of the boilers has a failure. I could keep the place protected from a freeze up by switching the operating boiler to be the lead boiler until I had time to repair the boiler that was down.
There are some less expensive control systems now available that can automatically do the auto lead-lag boiler switching and also have automatic second boiler operation based on demand as opposed to just an arbitrary outdoor temperature. But at the time those controls were more expensive with more features than I required for the job of this particular church. So with these new controls systems are another reason to choose two smaller boilers over one large boiler.
Steam boilers, maybe not so much. But the choice to offer two steamers to this particular church was easy because there were three zone valves on the old boiler. Two 4” valves feed the large Church wing and the large auditorium wing. A third 2” valve feeds a smaller Chapel. Finally, there was the bathrooms and two business offices that were on one of the large zones, so when the Pastor or the Secretarywas there working during the week, the large auditorium zone needed to be heated in order to heat those two offices.
The 2 boiler system would work out great because I could size one of the boilers for the largest zone EDR, the other boiler could handle the balance of the system if all 4 (yea, I added a loop of base board for the offices) Zones were calling for heat at once. This was the church that selected the one commercial boiler job, so I never needed to design a control system for 2 boilers. I did however install the optional water baseboard loop to heat the offices and bathrooms. This was a big savings, because they were able to set back the temperature on the three large steam zones. The baseboard heat was piped off of a tankless coil on the steamer. That worked great with a L4006A limit control set at 170°F in the coil aquastat tapping.
Re: Weil Mclean EG/PEG 504 Steam Boiler not working
the pressure control cold have a plugged or partially plugged pigtail. Overfilling the boiler and then draining will not affect the pressure control or flood it. It has water in it on every steam cycle.
I can see the water level in the gauge glass looks about 7/8 full. The circulator pump is for a hot water heating zone or an indirect water heater.
I can see the water level in the gauge glass looks about 7/8 full. The circulator pump is for a hot water heating zone or an indirect water heater.
Re: How Do I Connect This Wire?
HydroStat recovery software will increase temperature every 30 minutes
Some think that is too long for their needs
This is the one that started the idea for this discussion, HydroStat has several controls that have optional outdoor reset. This works great when maintaining a given set point temperature. If, However, you wish to lower the temperature at night for sleeping in a lower temperature room, the recovery time in the morning can be over 2 hours with the pre-programed boiler temperature boost after 30 minutes. @TerrS wanted that timing to be faster, so this is the two stage thermostat idea I offered"
Here is the latest diagram based on the 4200a control:
1. The concept is to fool the HydroStat control to get a higher boiler temperature during setback recovery. (at 6:00AM and 3:00PM)
2. The HydroStat will provide a higher boiler temperature if there is a call for DHW. (so we will use that feature at 6:00AM and 3:00PM)
3. The thermostat you have has the capability for 2 stage heat operation.
4. Your thermostat will automatically select stage 2 operation whenever the set-point (the desired temperature) is more than 1° higher than the room temperature.
5. This happens whenever there is a change from set back to normal set point (desired temperature). For example changing from 64° to 68° is more than 1° higher
6. By operating a RIB relay with stage 2 from one of the thermostats, the relay contacts can tell the boiler to make DHW with higher temperature water. (but we will operate the CH circulator pump)
7. Once the room temperature reaches 67° (or the DHW demand reaches 45 minutes) the stage 2 relay will drop out and the boiler will automatically revert to ODR mode.
8. You must program your 4200a to accept the stage 2 as DHW demand for this to work. (it should come that way from the factory)
9. You must connect the DHW/Zone 2 circulator wire to your existing circulator with a jumper or wire nut at the 4200a control (see triangle note 5)
Re: Help diagnose radiator noise
As an update here - had the valve replaced and the noise completely stopped. Perfect now!
