Air in Oil - Can the pump be bad?
Hi All, first time posting here. Hoping to get some insight from burner techs.
Burnham MPO-84IQ installed about ten years ago and absolutely no trouble since, until this year.
275 Roth tank at same level as boiler, about 10' away. Single pipe out the top of the tank and down to the floor to the dreaded TigerLoop at the boiler. Flex lines from the TL to the burner.
This year after cleaning the boiler and installing a new nozzle, it fires right up and runs fine until the ignition turns off.
At this point it 'hiccups', puffs, and doesn't run right for a few minutes, and sometimes the flame would go out. I figured I had air…
Every time I would bleed it, I would get good amount of air/froth out the bleeder. After a bit of bleeding the oil would run clear and the burner starts and runs perfectly until it's shut down and started again some time later. Same scenario when I bleed again and restart.
Strangely, I do NOT see the air in the TL bowl. How can there be air from the bleeder, and not showing in the TL?
Sorry this is getting a bit long… Today I replaced the TL and the flex lines since one way or the other they were due for replacement. This didn't change the behavior. Same thing.
My question is this: Is it possible that the PUMP itself could be sucking air somehow? Do they have seals that can suck air when they go bad? (CleanCut A2EA-6527)
Is that my next logical step, replace the pump?
Thanks for any help!
BTW- can anyone recommend a GOOD burner tech in eastern Monmouth County, New Jersey? I'd happily welcome someone who knows WTH they are doing, not like the previous ones I've hired (and why I try to do as much as possible myself. I consider myself an advanced DIY [which means I know less than I think I do! LOL!] )
Comments
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Is your next logical step to replace the pump? What's your definition of "logic"?
It worked right up until you walked in the room, so we can assume its due to something you touched. (A little logic + deduction.)
What model Beckett, and what nozzle? The only thing you did on the oil side is replace the nozzle? No filter? No pump strainer? If no, then that would rule out a suction leak. That was before you replaced the TL and braided lines, though. Now who knows?
Did you adjust the electrodes? Are they set correctly? Is the head on the assembly or fixed on the air tube? What's it look like? Shine a flash down the air tube? Coke around the perimeter? Is asking for an ohm reading on the eye too much?
If the only thing you touched was the nozzle, its possible you've got a faulty nozzle. I had one last week. First time since I can't remember when. A .65 80°B Delavan. Not likely, but possible.
There's a "find a contractor" link at the top of the page. Click it. But stop trying to service an oil burner if you don't have the tools. You don't need logic as much as you need the tools at this point. I can't ask what I really want to ask because you don't have the tools to provide the answers.
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Logic: Based on the facts presented, does it make sense?
I understand well your thoughts on the last thing that got touched. It's a lesson I learned many, many decades ago. I thought the same thing, but keep going back to the thoughts of "Where is all this air coming from?" If it was the nozzle bad, how would that allow air into the pump?
It's an AFG burner, the nozzle on the MPO-84IQ is spec'd as a 0.50 45° W. Yes, it's a small nozzle to be sure. I'll take your suggestion and change it anyway, but I'm doubtful that is the cause.
The strainer was replaced last season and was squeaky clean.
I did not change the filters yet, but the vacuum is approximately 1.5". I don't suspect the filters (F100-10 spin on near the TL, a General near the tank.
Electrodes are set correctly. It's an L-2 head and pretty much spotless, no 'mess' inside the air tube. It's not an ignition problem, it starts perfectly. Only when the ignition cuts off and the air in the pump makes it to the nozzle after a few moments does it start misbehaving.
I can get a resistance reading on the cell… I'll do that today.
The question remains though, is it POSSIBLE for the pump to somehow be bad? Sucking air somehow/somewhere? Bad shaft seal ?
I did look at the find a contractor page, there are two that are somewhat close and I'll give them a shout, although neither of their listings indicate that they are oil burner techs. I presume they are…
Tools? For years I had a Fyrite but you know that's discontinued now, and mine is defunct. I would like to purchase an analyzer, but it doesn't make sense to do so for a once a year use.
I have a 'smoke gun' and after the burner is bled and starts and runs smoothly I have ZERO smoke.
The question is "Where is the air coming from?"
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I would look at the tiger loop. Having one is supposed to eliminate the air in the fuel. Where is your filter? Did the tech disconnect the TL and get the lines back on wrong. If the lines are plumbed correctly, try bypassing the TL and see if the problem goes away. Could be some crap in the TL that escaped in the maintenance service. I think you will find that it is a restriction in the fuel supply not the burner pump.
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The problem existed with the OLD TigerLoop and lines. They were both old, and the thought was that there was a suction leak… so at that point, they were replaced and the problem persists, exactly the same.
Also, there are no bubbles or frothing appearing in the TL dome, air is ONLY at the manual bleeder on the pump. That's what keeps leading me back to the pump itself. If I am not seeing air in the TL, where is the air coming from?
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Some other thoughts, check the fuel flow at the in port on the TL. If the tank is full there should be a flow of fuel due to gravity. You have cavitation in the burner pump resulting in vapor bobbles.
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you said the strainer was squeaky clean. Does that mean you took the pump cover off? If so, was it a cork type gasket or a ring?
Either way it’s put it back on especially if it was a ring gasket.
And/or a bad nozzle as mentioned above or you simply just didn’t put everything back together properly.
But no way, I would consider changing the fuel pump until you confirm the other things0 -
When did you change the TL?, Did it run ok after the change. Did you change both?
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If your getting foam, then fuel then foam you have a suction leak somewhere. Pump strainer gasket, tiger loop any flare fitting in the oil line etc.
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Runs fine until ignition drops out? That's the hint! What are combustion readings? What type of primary control?
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Google Roth tank issues.
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Good flow into the TL.
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Exactly same behavior before and after changing the TL and flex lines.
Change both? Both what?
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Yes, fuel / foam / fuel / bubble / fuel / etc …
Keep in mind that if I bleed a bunch of air out, and then start the burner, it will run perfectly until it's shut down and sits for a period of time.
Also note that there are NO bubbles/foam in the TL dome when this is going on. There WERE bubbles after I changed out the filters today, but after running for a bit, those went completely away.
I changed the strainer again… exact same issue persists.
Can a flare fitting that's been in service for … say 10 years go bad? Isn't the fact that there are no bubbles/foam in the TL dome an indication that the piping is tight?
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Yes… but not immediately starts the puffing. It might take 15 seconds, 30 seconds, then it starts acting up. If I shut it down at that point and bleed it again, I get air/foam, and then it will restart and run fine.
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@NJeffro said, “The strainer was replaced last season and was squeaky clean.”
How do you know the strainer is squeaky clean? Did you remove the strainer cover and inspect the strainer? If you did, that is the first place I would look for a vacuum leak that might let air into the oil line system with a Tigerloop.
I carried a full box of pump gaskets for the Clean Cut, A2, and B2 fuel pumps, and I would always change the gasket. I also carried some of the O-rings for the Riello pumps. They could be reused over and over again, but they might eventually fail. You can't get the burner to operate if there is a compromised O-ring on the strainer cover.
The fact that you need to bleed the pump with a Tigerloop tells me you don't understand how they work. You do not need to bleed a fuel pump equipped with a Tigerloop. If you do, then there is an air leak that is greater than the small leaks the Tigerloop will hide, allowing the burner to operate even when there is a small air leak. I think that Tigerloop is the best thing since the bypass plug was introduced.
After you make sure the fuel pump gasket is not the problem, then a vacuum gauge will help you find the source of the air leak. Do you own a 0 - 30 vacuum gauge
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Are you sure the plug was installed in the burner pump to set it as a two pipe system.
Did you check the flex lines for proper placement?
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