Heat Pump Refrigerant Uncertainty

charlie123 · May 12

I just wanted to thank you guys for your input/ advice, i appreciate it!

hot_rod · May 13

with the info we have on your home and system, I’m not sure you're a good candidate for an A2whp? Just from a cost and return perspective if nothing else.

charlie123 · May 13

I've decided against A2W and ducted, I need the tank out now and they both sound too involved (and apparently A2W pretty much isn't done here at this time).

I have someone coming Friday for an actual Manual-J and I'll get quotes on:

a) A2A (I like the simplicity, the dealer says that a service contract will leave the cleaning to them (though I want to be sure about that), I'm hoping that by avoiding oversizing I'll be comfortable, and the cost should be lower that the 1st 2 above I think), or

b) a new tank either with-or-without the New Yorker you mentioned. He's familiar with the unit.

Hopefully I'm looking at this correctly, and if I do the boiler I have a procedure worked out that makes installation of the Midea window inverter AC pretty painless.

mattmia2 · May 13

i don't know if any of the mini split cassettes are going to solve the cool draft problem even if sized properly. the end consumer isn't the person buying most of them, it is mostly builders and developers and such so price is much higher up on the design criteria than comfort or durability. be very careful with "name brand". there are only a few manufacturers and a whole lot of stuff is just something they bought and slapped their name on.

charlie123 · May 13

I would be looking at the hyper-heat versions of Mitsubishi or Fujitsu so I think I'm dealing with the good stuff.

I understand that the mini splits run at a very low output, so what you described makes sense, how even a slight draft could throw that out of whack/ compete with that airflow.

I'm guessing that your home, like mine, isn't the tightest envelope, and as such, maybe not a good match for A2A? Or did you work on your home and seal/insulate, and you still don't like the A2A?

Related question: do baseboard radiators often last far beyond the ~40 year lifespan I've heard of?

I haven't done any maintenance beyond cleaning the outer cover, would hate to go for a new boiler and find that these also need to be replaced.

mattmia2 · May 13

i don't know if there is good stuff, just less bad stuff.

the air from the cassette is the draft, it isn't very warm so if it has enough velocity when it gets you for you to feel it, it will feel cold

i would expect fin tube baseboard to last 100+ years unless you physically damage it or have a leak that is letting a lot of makeup water in to the system or have it very overpumped so you have erosion. it is a closed system and it is copper so it is pretty corrosion resistant to begin with and there is no continuous source of oxygen to corrode it.

ChrisJ · May 13

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1896469#Comment_1896469

We have an LG mini split in our office and never once has the air from it felt cold, even at 0F outside.

For that matter, I don't think I've ever felt a mini split produce even remotely high velocity air.

charlie123 · May 14

@EBEBRATT-Ed: one website shows the following as the punchlist for the annual oil service: would you say this is thorough or missing things?

New oil filter
New oil strainer
New burner nozzle
Clean and adjust electrodes
Clean oil lines
Check for proper flue discharge
Examine all electricals
Start up and run through of system

*Note: If soot vac is required, additional charges will apply

Steamhead · May 14

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1896546#Comment_1896546

They forgot to include a combustion test, which includes a smoke test. The smoke level should be zero. Burners made in the last 40 years or so should not make any smoke or soot, period. If they do, something is wrong.

EBEBRATT-Ed · May 14

agree with @Steamhead

But I don't agree that they should charge extra for cleaning the boiler of any soot.

Why?

Because if they screw up the burner adjustment then you have a problem a couple of months later then YOU have to pay for the cleaning.

and as steamhead mentioned the combustion test is one of the most important things.

mattmia2 · May 14

isn't inspecting the combustion chamber and cleaning the blower on the burner in there along with cleaning the combustion chamber?

that isn't a service contract, it is a fixed rate quote. a service contract has some risk that you may need to do more work sometimes. it is like the dealer that the service writer decided the problem with my car was alignment, charged me a lot to do an alignment and didn't fix the problem.

ChrisJ · May 14

What is "clean oil lines" ?

mattmia2 · May 14

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1896555#Comment_1896555

if i read that again it looks more like some ai skimming rather than someone's service contract. some of that stuff is hard and unnecessary and other stuff is not how the trade would describe it and stuff that is more important and easier than the hard stuff in the list is missing

mattmia2 · May 14

testing the safeties is also missing there

ChrisJ · May 14

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1896573#Comment_1896573

Maybe that's under "Examine all electricals"

EBEBRATT-Ed · May 14

The Op stated that his service company is in and out in 1/2 hour.

They are basically doing a nozzle and a filter and that is all.

charlie123 · May 15

I would say 1/2 hour is the norm, and that service list came from an hvac dealers website, thx.

charlie123 · May 18

Hey, hoping you don't mind a few more questions.

When a Biasi B-3 was consider in the past it was ruled out because it was too deep, would have to be oriented sideways and not sure that was an option.

I'm wondering if part of the issue was due to the vent being on the back, but I also read that it uses 'atmospheric venting' (not sure what this is). I'm wondering if in general, boilers with rear vents can be easily adapted so that the vent comes out the top the way it does on my Utica? The NY'er appears to have a rear vent as well.

Current rough measurements: are 7 1/4, 26, 35 (wall to boiler rear, wall to boiler front, wall to burner front, with ~42" between the front of the burner and a work bench.

Thanks

Steamhead · May 18

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1896756#Comment_1896756

Some can, but not the Biasi.

mattmia2 · May 18

there are lots of ci oil boilers out there, look around for one that will fit and has enough clearance for service and to not set things on fire

charlie123 · May 19

Hopefully the New Yorker CI-HGS-74E that Steamhead mentioned can be adapted. One dealer wasn't inclined to install that (he likes Buderus, Veissman, etc) but when he realized it was a 3-pass he said he'd look into it.

winnie · May 20

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1896279#Comment_1896279

IMHO the above is a key point for any sort of air to air installation.

My house has both minisplits and steam oil heat. In regions of my house where I don't have direct air flow from the minisplit 'heads', I can't tell the difference, for example the hallway that is heated by whatever escapes from the bedroosm.

But in regions right next to the airflow the difference in comfort is noticeable. The radiant heat from a steam radiator is very nice, the quality of the airflow from the 'head' is variable. Depending on the minisplit modulation level they can blow anything from nicely warm are to barely tepid air, and blowing tepid air in the winter is not a win.

IMHO if you can design your system so that it doesn't directly blow tepid air on the room occupants in normal use, you will probably be fine with an air-air system.

And to your original question about trying to suss out what refrigerant to use? I would not put much if any effort into that question. Use whatever equipment is currently available and put your mental effort into getting a good equipment size and layout (or put your mental effort into finding a contractor who will do so). Refrigerant is just too far down the list of things to optimize.

-Jonathan

charlie123 · May 20

Thanks Jonathan,

It's being suggested that rather than installing multiple independent minisplits (which I believe is the most efficient), I should put in a ducted multi-split unit in my unconditioned attic.

I had always heard that if you were going to locate an air handler in an unconditioned attic, it needs to be in a sealed and insulated box, but I'm being told that the ducts are already insulated.

It would seem to me that, with the issue with tepid air that you all describe, having the unit further challenged by being in a very cold or hot attic would be a bad idea.

Thanks again

winnie · May 20

IMHO do not put an air handler or ductwork in an unconditioned attic.

Yes, the ducts are insulated, but they are not well insulated, and the installation has to be perfect to prevent air leaks from/to the attic.

I have multiple independent minisplits, and I like the result. The downside is that I have 5 separate boxes outside of my house.

ChrisJ · May 20

I installed most of my ductwork and air handler in an unconditioned attic.

It was the best place, overall for my situation and all ductwork has R8 insulation. @winnie is correct that sealing all of the ductwork has to be good.

Minisplits have their own set of issues as well though. Everything is a compromise.

They work but keeping them clean is far from fun, especially with multiple heads to clean. It's also been my experience that they're less than great at dehumidifying. I'm sure someone will reply and say that's because they're oversized, but I'm not entirely buying that. I'm sure it aggravates the problem but they don't seem to run as cold as a window unit or split unit even on the lowest fan speed. They also never shut the fan off.

mattmia2 · May 20

The mini splits can modulate but they probably do not do a great job of figuring out that they should modulate down and run longer cycles to get better dehumidification.

pecmsg · May 20

minis suck at dehumidification at less then 60% load!

ChrisJ · May 21

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1896990#Comment_1896990

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1896991#Comment_1896991

I currently have the one in our office set on fan #1. I always have it on manual fan speed.

It still doesn't do great, I don't think they are programmed to run the evap cold enough.

ratio · May 21

I was told by Magic Mike (The world's best technician. Just ask him, he'll be happy to tell you about it!) that mini splits need to control the fan speed to operate at their best. It seemed reasonable, so I've been leaving them set on auto ever since.

ChrisJ · May 21

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1897040#Comment_1897040

I use auto in the winter, but in the summer I prefer to control this one.

charlie123 · May 21

Starting to think that a new boiler and tank with window AC is the way to go. Not sure the heat-pumps are worth the bother.

For those who need to clean wall-units (spraying coils and removing blower wheel, no pets), I'm wondering how often that's typically needed? I hear anything from every 6 months to a couple of years.

If anyone knows of a low output, cast iron, triple-pass boiler with top venting where the burner only extends ~35" from the back wall, suggestions are welcome.

The New Yorker CI-HGS-74E was recommended, not sure it converts to top-venting though.

Thanks for the comments.

EBEBRATT-Ed · 12:08AM

A lot of people rail against pin boilers but the same people still install them on their jobs. I see nothing wrong with them.

The Weil McLain has been around for many years and seems to hold up pretty well.

mattmia2 · 12:11AM

look at the wm, peerless, dunkirk, and burnham catalogs for something the right shape to fit your space. don't forget there will be clearances needed to service the burner and clean the hx and may be clearances to combustibles on various sides.

Heat Pump Refrigerant Uncertainty

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