Help with Peerless PF-140, Ignition issues, Control Board swap

Redrum · December 30

The high temp sensor is ok, I checked continuity out of circuit (almost 0 ohms) and also jumped the control board connection as in the video, no change.

I tried to wring out the gas valve connector from the J13 connector on the control board (blu, brn, grn/yel) to the 6 pin connector on the gas valve, but only had luck with the ground. Once I found I could split the connector I found out why. There is a little PCB in there. This is not in the schematic

But I was able to cycle the ignite sequence and see 120vac (across the brn and blu) when the valve was on. But I can't be sure what the valve itself is seeing, nor do I know the function of the PCB, maybe because it is a modulating valve…

On to the next tests and inspections.

Redrum · December 30

It looks (to me) like tech #1 did a thorough cleaning down into the "grooves" This picture is of the bottom of the chamber (phone in the chamber facing down)

and here is a zoom in:

I ran a piece of sheet styrene I had in some of the grooves and I didn't seem to hit or dislodge anything. I'll vac and wipe down the chamber and vac the burner anyhow. Tech I trust said just a damp (water) microfiber

The swirl plate looks ok to me. I'll take a closer look. I guess I am looking for a deformation or, say tear, or something?

So, here is where I am at (to the best of my ability) - controls and igniter/flame sensor are ok, high temp sensor ok, chamber seems ok, 120vac seen at the gas valve, swirl plate looks ok (but I'll look closer).

That leaves the gas valve and that funky pressure on the boiler side of the valve.

Tomorrow the "tech I trust" will be coming by to start to design the next system and I am sure he will take a look. I'll ask him to retest the pressure and I think he will want to do a combustion analysis.

and we go from there. That first shower in our own shower is going to be glorious once up and running 😍🤞

Redrum · December 30

Swirl plate looks ok.

Redrum · December 30

@yellowdog mentioned the inducer motor? It's only a thou, I'll take 2…

https://www.partstoyourdoor.com/blower-pf-140-54191

For about 5-8 major parts you can get a new boiler. Maybe the business to be in is buying boilers and parting them out?

Ironman · December 30

It looks cracked around the hub.

pedmec · December 30

@Ironman Good eye

@Redrum the molex connector to the gas valve is a rectifier. gas valve is DC voltage

109A_5 · 12:37AM

I agree the swirl plate looks cracked, what I wonder it that is enough to upset it. kind of makes me wonder if a thin layer of epoxy on both sides for a test would work. I wonder if the crack gets wider with the inducer blower running.

Earlier in this thread I posted a similar picture of a gas valve connector with the bridge rectifier on the board, I guess it went unnoticed. That green PCB may just slide out if it is not glued in. Inspect the solder Joints.

SuperTech · 12:59AM

Any luck yet finding someone who can do a combustion analysis?

I'm almost at the point where I am ready to give up, it seems like it's useless to point out how important this is.

109A_5 · 1:15AM

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1880020#Comment_1880020

In the picture with the vent pipe, I don't see any port drilled and plugged like the manual shows. Although there is some stuff in the way. Kind of wonder if it was ever done.

Redrum · 1:54AM

supertech, I heard ya, not ignoring ya, as I mentioned previously the first 2 techs did not do a CA, and the "tech I trust" is coming tomorrow. He asked if one was done, but I am not sure he will do one, we will see. He's coming to start the design of the new system. He's not doing repairs because of his family situation, but he might, we will see. Let's not forget I have called other techs only to get blown off. I can call more, I just love tossing around benji's for no good reason, explaining everything to a new person right from the beginning, only to have them not show, or not come back (sorry, I am pretty beaten down, my faith in capitalism is shaken).

109 - I did not skip past that post, I saw it, and I commented that I would probably take this to the curb before a shipment from moser came :). I tried sliding the board out and the connector seemed secured into that black case somehow, I decided not to break it. Besides, the valve clicks and I see a real good strong blue flame (but only for 2-3 seconds). I could check the DC at the 5 pin connector, but there is no scheme, etc that tells me what I should look for. I even tried finding the gas valve on the net. I suppose I could just probe it to find out what it is, but what is it supposed to be?

Bob, good spot, I can take it out tomorrow, it was an easy removal. But, how critical is it? It's not a jet turbine, right? Asking because I don't know. Should I just look for instability, like if I flex it if the crack opens or not?

what did you guys thing of the Combustion chamber?

I do want to get this running, the dream of a hot shower in my own home is a glorious one, but I have to be a realist. It's a 7 year old boiler that hasn't been maintained, and has, what 5 years left? it isn't supported in my area, the parts are a fortune, and hard to get. My indirect tank is 25 years old as well. I think throwing a thou a part at it is nuts. Try a gas valve? Maybe? Only nine hundred something….I'm not much of a gambler.

I want to go back to cast iron, you guys think I'm nuts? My only concern is I have in floor radiant and baseboard.

Jim

Redrum · 1:55AM

109 - I'll look for a port tomorrow, could be in the back, right?

Edit - found it, it's a hole behind some silver tape just above the fernco.

109A_5 · 2:16AM

OK if you understood there was a possibly of bridge rectifier hiding in the gas valve connector housing this statement confuses me.

" I tried to wring out the gas valve connector from the J13 connector on the control board (blu, brn, grn/yel) to the 6 pin connector on the gas valve, but only had luck with the ground. Once I found I could split the connector I found out why. There is a little PCB in there. This is not in the schematic "

Is there a diode symbol anywhere on the connector housing ?

Kind of wondering if the if the crack gets wider with the inducer blower running. Thus causing the draft through the venturi to diminish resulting in the wrong pressure at the outlet side of the gas valve.

EBEBRATT-Ed · 2:20AM

Mod Cons are just like a new car. When they work, they can't be beat. When they go down in a lot of cases they are a big pile of expensive junk.

And just like the newer cars parts are $$$$$.if they are even available after a certain time. It seems like we are forced into a 10 year? life cycle.

Where do you draw the line between mod con fuel savings and parts cost? $800 blower assemblies etc You have to save a lot of fuel to make up that cost. Its just like a car when it start eating $$$ and your shooting the parts cannon at it you get sick of it fast.

Add to that fact just like cars in many areas you can find someone who can fix it. The cars and the mod cons require skilled technicians who can fix it.

I watch a guy on U tube "South Main Auto" he gets all kinds of cars sent to him from other shops, cars sent to him from dealers who can't fix the brand they sell.

By the time he gets a car some have been to 2-3 shop/dealers who have blasted the thing with a parts cannon.

And don't even talk about the lack of quality in aftermarket car parts that don't work right out of the box.

Its our own fault for giving all the jobs to China. Now we pay for it.

If the new tech can't fix it go Cast iron or steel a normal boiler.

60 years ago my old man used to say "buy a Chevy or a Ford, anyone at the local gas station can fix it" with the shortage of technicians around its not bad advice.

My last 2025 rant.

109A_5 · 2:21AM

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1880033#Comment_1880033

The manual wants to be within 12 inches of the boiler.

pedmec · 2:31AM

You need a new swirl plates as that crack will open when running. I'm certain that is your issue. The control chase is a red herring. This needs replacing anyway because you don't throw that back in an expect it to work. Peerless has a parts supplier online that you can get ship right away.

Your boiler, when properly maintained, will give you another 15-20 years of good service provided the installation is good (questionable from the pics, but reconnecting a new boiler into the same set-up will give you the same results). The installer is more important than the boiler. Like they say, you pay for ****, you eat ****.

109A_5 · 2:34AM

I believe EBM PAPST is German engineering, the stuff in these boilers is tiny compared to some of their product line.

@EBEBRATT-Ed If you like SMA try Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics.

EBEBRATT-Ed · 2:40AM

May not be a crack in the swirler.

@109A_5 Yes I have seen Pine Hollow. They have worked together on occasion

109A_5 · 3:13AM

Looks like a crack to me, it looks like it is on both sides, anyway it should be verified. I'd try epoxy as a test before I spent any more money on parts, etc.

https://www.partstoyourdoor.com/peerless-5517-swirl-plate-red-9-mm

109A_5 · 5:55AM

Apparently that cracking is a known issue, however the cause is maybe unknown, at least in 2015. @Redrum you may find the post interesting.

Some folks feel it is worse with LP.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1384524

109A_5 · 6:34AM

More carnage:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/195285

From back in 2011:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1225170

Did some checking with HTP about "swirl plate" problems here is their comment:

I believe pre mature failure is due to two reasons:

The back draft of flue gases from venting system through heat exchanger and back out through swirl plate. The spent flue gases contain a great deal of corrosive condensate. The fix we used was to increase post purge on fan to clear all spent flue gases from venting system.

Another cause can be recirculation of flue gasses entering the cabinet and being drawn into swirl plate. Same material just from another direction.

About two years ago the manufacturer of the swirl plates changed what they are made of. They switched to Poly Propylene a more durable product that can also take higher temperatures. Swirl plates made of this newer material can be identified by the letters PP under the triangle on the back side of swirl plate.

SuperTech · 11:10AM

@Redrum I know you don't want to waste money on calling techs, you shouldn't trust anyone who doesn't have a digital combustion analyzer! It's simple, call around and anyone who doesn't have a combustion analyzer can be disregarded. All you need to do is find a tech who is familiar with condensing boilers and combustion analysis. You can do this over the phone without spending any money. I'd help you out myself but I'm in the Hudson valley and you guys have disrespected my Jets in this thread. (Lol, they deserve it).

The pictures of the inside of the boiler look good, it's nice and clean. If I was working on it I would replace the swirl plate and check the venting before doing the combustion analysis. I've seen boilers with similar problems where the venting was the root of the problem. Exhaust recirculation due to the intake and exhaust pipes not having the required horizontal and vertical separation.

It's great to see that someone at some point did a combustion analysis but it really needs to be done every time the boiler is serviced and repaired. I always leave a printout of the combustion analysis results in minimum and maximum firing rate at the boiler after I work on it.

That is a great boiler in my opinion. Once you get it tuned properly it you should get at least 20 years out of it with proper maintenance.

Redrum · 1:29PM

Hi Everyone, thanks for your comments, a lot to digest, I'll address everything, easy stuff first

@EBEBRATT-Ed - your "rant" is exactly where my head is at. My dad built the family house in '61, and installed a first oil boiler, and then converted to NG. I remember my mom replacing the original boiler with a Weil McClain in the late 90's. When I bought my home in '91, it had a Weil McLain, and I replaced it with a Buderus in 2016. We moved in 2024. With the WM I think I replaced couplings, then a pump when I found why the couplings were failing, air bleeds, a motor of the honeywell zone valves, pressure regultors, got everything local, and was never down for more than a day.

But I am still going to try to save this, and I will let the tech I trust help steer me properly for the new system

@SuperTech - Yea, but you don't know what the tech is going to be like when you meet him, and if you let him in the door, it's going to cost you and hour. One thing is stuck in my head, if this only stays lit for 2-3 seconds, is that enough combustion to analyze?

@109A_5 - I can't control where the test port was drilled, it came with the house 😉. Noted.

Also, 109, and the rest of you. I'll delve into the swirl plate more today, @pedmec , I hope that you are right, I'll pay a hundred easy for heat and hot water, in fact I'll pay…..

I zoomed in on the photo:

As I mentioned the "tech I trust" I have known for quite a while and he is big time into hydronics, AC, etc, and being an engineer, I appreciate when he talks the science of what and why. I may not understand exactly what he is saying in terms of the specifics as it relates to this, but I know it's not BS because I understand enough of the science to recognize BS. I'll see him today. I asked if he could perform gas valve measurements and a combustion analysis, but the main reason he is coming is for the new design.

I will mention the swirl plate to him, and we may take it out. If he doesn't, I will and get back to you, but I am betting he'll perk up when I show him. Edit - just spoke with him via text, he said "that'll do it". We are checking to see if we can get one locally (ERB supply in Buffalo). I don't mind this part, even if it's not the fix, it's broke and needs replacing.

I had it in my hands and it didn't feel like PP (I spent some time in plastic molding industry). It had more of a nylon look. PP is recycle number 5 ans the triangle is empty (see pic)

I'll look through those links now, thanks. The ones that go multiple pages (like this one) scare me. Maybe some day this thread will help/scare someone else!

Jim

Redrum · 1:36PM

One more thought. I imagine that this could explain an occasional but chronic ignite of flame failure that progressively gets worse, and is worsened by a dirty chamber. Thinking the crack slowly gets worse over time. The cleaning temporarily revives it because part of the issue is fixed, but then, as the crack worsens, the issue returns and one day it becomes terminal (in a day), perhaps because the crack worsens faster as it get bigger

Does this sound like a "maybe"? It would explain the symptom set that I experienced.

Help with Peerless PF-140, Ignition issues, Control Board swap

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