Help with Peerless PF-140, Ignition issues, Control Board swap
Comments
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That boiler has the same heat exchanger as a lot of other water tube models/cons and the controls are similar on all of them.
What I’m saying is that there’s nothing unique or special about that boiler or the fact that it’s a Peerless. Any technician that’s competent with mod/cons can service that boiler. You don’t need a Peerless specialist.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
1 -
Make sure the new tech. has a manometer and combustion analyzer and that they know how to use them. Having gone through this thread, the first thing I would check is the gas pressure drop when the boiler fires. This is done on the inlet test port and you don't want to see a big drop.
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab1 -
This is a common problem in some areas. Some "techs" just don't want to or refuse to take the time it needs to learn. They want to Google the answer quickly.
I never liked to leave a job not running. To me that is a failure. Never considered myself smart but i didn't give up very easily
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" Tech just left, measured incoming pressure (13) and pressure on the other side of the valve (4). "
Only example I could find on the net. What is the outlet pressure rated at on the specifications sticker on the side of the boiler ?
If the outlet pressure is actually 4 Inches of WC and it should be near zero, it would seem the gas valve outlet orifice going to the venturi air inlet swirl plate may be restricted.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
Sadly it seems many business models today support failure, you only get so much time, then it is time to move on, whether it is working or not.
It's funny they talk about growth but they are not willing to take the time to learn what actually repairs the tougher problems.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
Thank you for your comments and I will address a few of them in no particular order.
- As far as the devotion/knowledge of the techs, that, and trying to bill me for an hour spent trying to sell me a new boiler, and telling me about his life and family and how great he was, finally not reserving a part and it was gone when he got there (I offered to go pick it up), then blaming it on me (?) is why he is no longer involved. I have to be fair to the second one. He inherited this mess and didn't have the time yesterday, but came anyhow, spent maybe 2 hours with me as he had several "no heats" yet he made time, and didn't want to charge me. I insisted so we settled on an hour to be billed. I can probably get him back in on Monday. 3rd generation of a family business. I really liked him. Seems like most places sell Navian around here, but I have only contacted 4 out of maybe 30+ places.
- I am also thinking it's gas related. A few posts back 109 posted the suspicion that the gas was dropping/failing at the red line. I am betting it's more like the blue line. Reason, the two seconds between the blue and the red is when the flame sensor was read 4x and I get all zeros. Second, remember I said instead of poof,poof,poof (with flame modulating) before, I am now getting poof with a short steady flame. My thought (based on all of your comments, and eliminating all but the wiring harness), is the modulation I observed might not have been right, rather the start of being intermittent, which would also explain why I would get occasional flame failures (boiler had been running for minutes, flame estinguishes, chamber reverberates.
3. As for the gas measurement comments, I asked the tech for the measurements, and I believe that both the 13 (inlet) and the 3-4 (outlet) were inches of WC. He did test both through the boiler firing cycle. He said the inlet was pretty steady, and seemed happy with what he saw. He concluded it was not a propane tank to valve issue. AS for the outlet, he did mention that it dropped during the firing cycle, and I got the sense (only the sense, I am not the pro), that he didn't expect to see the drop. I could ask him again
4. 109, here is my boiler tag:
yes, I see the -0.01 to 0.01, and yes he said 3-4, I am sure, I wrote it down. Is this something I could disassemble and clean? Or, would it be a defect/damage (not cleanable) and I would have to replace the part? Also, is the value on the tag a static (non flame) value? He was measuring the 3-4 through the flame sequence.
6. As for the combustion analyzer, he didn't test, said he could, but seemed hesitant that it would be specific to this boiler that he was not familiar with. Remember he was squeezing me in. Neither did tech 1.
7. Bob, understand. I am getting the impression with the 2-3 techs I have spoken to that standard cast iron boiler servicing is more common. I do have a guy that is very technically advanced who would have been my first shot, but he is dealing with a family health issue and taking some time away from the work. He is also a two man band, so his availability has always been tough.
That's all for now, I'll try to get clarity on the readings. Let me know if I should take the gas valve/venturi apart and clean (if possible).
/* Note - I remember finding a thread, here I think, where a member was having the same issue and it turned out to be a damaged swirl plate. Here's the thread
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The slightly negative pressure on the outlet side of the gas valve is a dynamic value, i.e. with the gas valve on. A value of 3-4 tells me something is wrong.
With my limited knowledge of negative pressure gas valves, somewhere between the valve and the burner, there is an aberration. If I were on the job, I’d take the whole gas valve, Venturi and burner apart to see what’s wrong.Before doing that, just for shi*s and giggles, I’d pull the inlet pipe (combustion air) off the Venturi on the inducer fan - there should be a rubber coupling there - and see if the boiler fires with just room air. I found a dead bird in there once.
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab1 -
Alan, thanks, I'll check that. I know that tech #1 suspected the intake as he mentioned the windy weather with leaves we had had, but he checked it, I think by disconnecting the fernco fitting (see my pics of boiler). I had also gone outside and both air in and exhaust PVC's had screens inserted (they looked like HVAC screens, about 1/2" to 3/4" openings.
But I am suspicious of fuel (gas/o2) as well (plus, what else is there?), so I'll probably carefully disassemble the valve/swirl cage area and see if anything looks odd. Before that I will disconnect and try to fire the boiler.
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I think on this boiler the venturi / air inlet swirl plate is the combustion air intake for the burner. I assume the boiler has the same symptoms with the front cover off.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
Funny you should say that. I was trying to figure that out as well. Yes, I have had the front cover off the whole time.
I think I, as a handy homeowner, and defeated. I just don't have the instrumentation or experience. Problem is with each tech billing hours, and the price of the parts these days, it might be time to cut bait and get a new system, installed by a company that will support it, and can get parts. My problem with this is the Peerless came with the house, and the installer retired.
I looked through the thread I linked again, and within that there was another thread linked where the poor guy had the EXACT same symptoms as me (when mine was running) and he thrashed about quite a bit until a peerless tech came out, and adjusted the valve (even though the valve was within spec). What are the chances of that happening? and if it does, what is the final the bill to keep a 7 year old boiler and 24 year old indirect HW tank running vs. starting a new?
That second thread is frightening to read through, it makes it sound like these things are way to touchy. But I am sure they are not, properly installed. That is the key, "properly installed". How can a commoner tell?
Didn't hear from tech #2, tech #3 coming Monday and I gained enough knowledge to make sure they do the right tests. Tech #3 (referred to me by Peerless customer support) says they are not experienced with Peerless (of course he said that) but he would get the right tech on the line and promised me they would get it running. He may be sorry he said that.
It's bound to be something really dumb. I keep getting stuck on the point that I see zero uA both on screens (used to see values) yet I can read uA of current with a meter in line:
Having replaced everything control, except for the wiring harness, and checked all grounds for continuity to the supply AC ground, and the copper pipe, I am thinking it's gas, but when to quit?
I appreciate all the advice and if nothing else, I learned a ton. Thank you all for the time you take out of your day to help us flailing commoners out 😉
Jim
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I'll try this again. What model is your Wavetek meter.
Without knowing the specifications of your meter I don't trust it. Do you only see 3 seconds of current since in the video that is all the flame time you had AND the meter reading you quoted were way beyond the boiler's specification I posted.
In my opinion, as a handy homeowner with an EE, there is a lot more things you could do without spending a fortune, may take some time. And the way I see it, the next boiler (if you go that route) is going to be the same or very similar technology and the Techs in your area potentially could have the same difficulty repairing a difficult issue.
For example, High tech electronics in the automotive industry has crippled many vehicles for way longer than anyone should tolerate and it is not getting any better IMO. One I found sadly amusing; The back up camera had a leak, corroded the electronics, brought down the onboard network communications, now the vehicle requires a tow truck and a Tech that could find that issue. I've been driving for decades, I rather have reliability and forget the camera.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
109 - It's a 2015, but as I mentioned, there is a 4 digit mA scale so 0.001 is one uA. I grabbed one of my harbor freight ones and it has a uA scale and it measured the exact same thing that the Wavetek did.
Note that the two reading were taken during different firing cycles
But the reading seems an order of magnitude high? Perhaps the meter is interpreting the current as straight DC, but the sensor has an AC component that the controller interprets correctly, or there is an offset current? Unsure.
But to your point, I am going to revisit timing again. From the timing diagram the igniter turns on, then there is 2 seconds before the gas valve is turned on ("click") then 4 seconds, then 2 seconds where the flame sensor is measured 4x (assuming 1/2 sec per measurement). I'll try to time the click to the start and end of the observed flame. Maybe I can pick both up in a video and measure the timing in terms of frames.
I also have an analog meter which will give a better indication of timing
I am still thinking that I used to see extended flame time (with modulated flame and sound), and hence uA readings. Now I only see a flame, and a single poof. Maybe no uA readings because it never gets to that 2 second read interval.
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There only should be DC current when the flame is burning. The flame is like a rectifier diode with a large series resistance when conducting. The higher than specification current value does bother me. And some meters don't do well discerning between AC and DC with very low current levels.
Basically I believe flame detection circuits use AC as the voltage source. And expects current flow on one alternation only for normal operation. If there is actually AC current flow (both alternations) there is a fault to ground detected (no rectification) and that may generate an error. If there is DC current flow when there should not be a flame present that would also cause an error (like the gas valve is not closing properly). All depends on the system what errors are captured and reported.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
See how Fluke publishes the resolution. I like that, it fits in my comfort zone well. Since you have two meters with the same basic reading that does help with a sanity test a bit. Your 2015 is AC coupled conversion in AC current mode, I think I would try that just to see what it reads.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
If this was my boiler, I'd build a wiring break-out device to put between the gas valve's connector and the wiring harness connector, to measure voltage and current to each solenoid individually. Connector parts are available from Digikey.com and Mouser.com and others, dimensions may need to be measured to determine the correct connectors. Also with the gas valve I would measure the resistance of the Gas valve solenoids for future reference.
I'd verify the Gas valve's voltage, the replacement one shows 120 RAC (Rectified AC), also I'd want to know if it is just AC coming from the control board or if there is Phase Angle control also (modulation). I'd devise a means to manually control the gas valve to better test system pressures.
Manometer, water manometer (clear tubing) or Dwyer Magnehelic Gage (inexpensive on eBay.com) to measure the pressure of the outlet side of the gas valve myself. And the differential pressure between the exhaust vent and the air intake. Future reference for failing inducer or other restriction.
Inspect the outlet side of the gas valve orifice port, maybe there is just a piece of Teflon tape that migrated along and is floating around in there. And inspect the venturi / air inlet swirl plate too.
I'd be doing a lot of my own testing to find out why the flame is going out in 3 seconds.
Variable DC power supply and a Resistor (100K or 1 Meg maybe) to verify the flame current monitor operation.
Needed hand tools, buy once use for a lifetime.
What they hide inside, an example;
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
109- Thank you for putting all the time into your posts and finding the video. It's funny when you see someone where you react "that's me"! "Worst decision I've ever made", "techs say, I've never seen anything like that, looks like a Lokinvar, but not really", "Techs coming out once a year for one reason or another"
Another solid reason to move on. I also noticed that the prices have doubled in the part 8 years since the video. I have a small New Holland Tractor where I have to make some of the simple parts because they are either unaffordable or unavailable. I had a driveshaft for PTO to snowblower that got damaged. $1500 from NH, but discontinued. Went to a truck repair place, they built me one for $200…I digress.
A couple things going on -
- I have the kids coming over Christmas today so my time is going to be limited today (Sunday)
- The Tech I wanted to use, very skilled and a self professed "hydronics nerd" is going to give me a call. He was my first choice, but, a family member has been going through some health issues, so he has been unavailable. He asked if the previous techs did all of the test you guys are suggesting including a combustion analysis.
- I will start to look at the gas valve at the control board connections, should be easier. I appreciate your advice on building specialized test tools, as I have built many, but by time a Moser delivery comes and I build them, this boiler will be at the scrap yard. All my life I have worked to keep stuff running longer than I should have (and taken pride in it), but have decided I'm to old for that now with stuff that is not enjoyable (to me).
- I'll check out the high limit sensor from the video
- I still want to make a video, perhaps with meters for flame current and gas valve voltage in view with the spy hole, and extract time stamps as to when things are happening or not. My main tech should be available in a bit (he would be my choice to replace my system) so it might help him.
- Tech #3 is coming Monday, we'll give him a shot, but he's probably going to be the last.
Happy Sunday…
Jim
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Looks like we’ve got you going every which way. I feel your pain.
I hear you when you said that the make-up air pipe was inspected, but did anyone try to fire the boiler with it disconnected at the fan? If not, give it a try.
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab0 -
was the gas valve changed?
guys, go back and reread the supply and manifold pressures on the rating plate, 13 psi max, 4 psi min supply to valve, -0.1~0.1 manifold / burner side(fire side), and these are Nat Gas numbers,
OP says he is converted to(not?), or, using LP, need LP #s if so, and a major retune,
known to beat dead horses0
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