Ban gas-fired cooking equipment?

Brewbeer · August 2018

@Jamie Hall the original hood vent into the attic was installed by the builder when constructed in 1965. The builder was also the first owner of the house, he developed the neighborhood.

This is on an outside wall, real easy to vent it straight back and out.

SlamDunk · August 2018

Just pointing out the costs of safety. There is the ideal and then there is the expense.

Is that true about unions in gas piping? Because the gas meter in my basement has at least one, maybe two. I never really thought of a union being dangerous on a gas line.

Jamie Hall · August 2018

GBart said:

jumper said:
So where are all the dead people?

Where are all the cancer patients who used baby powder or Roundup?
One just got over 200 million dollars smartass

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/10/637722786/jury-awards-terminally-ill-man-289-million-in-lawsuit-against-monsanto

In Kalifornia.

Based on some of the worst junk science I have ever seen in some four decades of doing risk assessment work.

Now can we go on to something else? I've mislaid my blood pressure meds...

ChrisJ · August 2018

Jamie Hall said:

GBart said:

jumper said:
So where are all the dead people?

Where are all the cancer patients who used baby powder or Roundup?
One just got over 200 million dollars smartass

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/10/637722786/jury-awards-terminally-ill-man-289-million-in-lawsuit-against-monsanto
In Kalifornia.

Based on some of the worst junk science I have ever seen in some four decades of doing risk assessment work.

Now can we go on to something else? I've mislaid my blood pressure meds...

I've got a migraine if it helps.

Not from this, just from stress I think.

Tim McElwain · August 2018

As one who has been servicing and testing and teaching gas stoves for many years they are as safe as the person using them and caring for them wants them to be. Ignorance is one of the things that makes them dangerous. Let me ask you this how many of you service/plumbers/heating techs check every oven in every house you go in? It was policy at the gas company I worked for to test every oven on every service call. Even if it was not why you were there on a call. We would enter the home tell the lady of the house we were going test here oven for proper calibration. We would place an oven thermometer in the oven and turn it on after five minutes we would do a combustion test. If it was over 50 PPM we would advise the customer it needed serviced by a professional oven service company.

I would venture to say that most who post here other than Steamhead would not know how to properly service a gas oven. He learned when he went through my one week class.

On an average I would find that most ovens were well over 50 PPM and many above 400 PPM. I have had ovens when called by the fire department to an incident to be up to 2000 PPM. The incident was usually a case of someone using the oven to heat a cold house. That never should be done.

Interesting unvented space heaters are very unlikely to have a CO problem because they have an ODS pilot (Oxygen Depletion Safety) it causes the pilot to shut off if oxygen level goes below 18% in the room.

Every home should have at least three low level CO detectors in operation at all times.

Range hoods should be mandatory for gas residential stoves and be interlocked with the stove so it can't work with out the fan running.

Steamhead · August 2018

@Tim McElwain , that was one of the best classes I ever took.

We offer to test customers' ovens, but unfortunately we don't have the clout of working for the gas company. Not all customers take us up on it.

We have had cases where we've been in a customer's house, the oven was running and we smelled the aldehyde odor that results from poor combustion. Testing shows at least 2000 PPM a/f when this happens. In a lot of cases, someone else told them the odor was "normal", proving once again that you can't fix stupid!

Gordy · August 2018

and yes, @Gordy I managed to stick a finger into a piece of farm machinery (the drag chain on a manure spreader). By the grace of God the surgeons were able to save it. I'm not immune to lapses in judgement and concentration. None of us are. But I'll rise or fall by my own efforts.

You make my point @Jamie Hall . I’ll go as far to say you did not put a lawsuit against the manure spreader manufacturers, and, or protest a redesign for safety. That is common place knowledge safety protocol in the farming culture. Just as below.

Yourself, and the gentlemen I spoke of with the snow blower incidents, probably called yourself a dumb ****, or something of the sort, and chalked it up as a learning experience. Thankfully it did not turn out as a close friend of mines incident who lost a nephew to the PTO on a feed grinder at the age of 10. The other twin brother found him hours later with tractor still running they chopped up the machinery. They didn’t file a law suit they all knew the risks, and dealt with the bad judgement as sad as the outcome was.

We can’t all carry the cross for the bad judgement of people so long as they are properly educated to know the risks, or take the proper cautions. We all have mental lapses for one reason, or another. Some get lucky many times over, and others do not. It may sound cold, but it’s life.

Solid_Fuel_Man · August 2018

So, just out of complete curiosity, how would one adjust a gas range? All I've ever seen is an air shutter on the oven burner(s) and the surface units have no more than an orifice.

Of the ones I've converted to propane, the oven orifices simply were screwed in to a stop to make them smaller for LP.

Gordy · August 2018

https://outlet.whirlpool.com/digitalassets/WFG510S0AS/Use and Care_EN.pdf

Gordy · August 2018

https://amana.com/assets//amana/pdfs//INSTALLGUIDE/AGR5330BAS_Installation Instruction_EN.pdf

Gordy · August 2018

Now fellas. Does the install, or owners manuals of two different manufacturers cover proper combustion set up? I’m not talking about the conversion either. Nor about what the flame should look like.........

Who should bear the cross?

Tim McElwain · August 2018

Solid Fuel Man get me your postal address and I will copy the procedure out of my manuals on Servicing Gas Ranges. It is too long to share here. My e-mail is gastc@cox.net

Leonard · August 2018

Grew up in a house with electric stove and ovan. Never knew how good I had it. Went to in-laws for thanksgiving, after they cooked the turkey 1/2 the day my eyes were stinking ( propane fueled oven/stove). No cooking vent of any type. Might not be a CO issue but there is definitely something else to it. He was a volunteer fire chief so likely had a CO detector from work there somewhere.

Read artical that children raised in houses with gas stoves are ~ 30% more likely to have asthma, daughter of that thanksgiving house has asthma.

At least restaurants are required to have cooking hood. Seen ones that shut them off in winter to save heat, walls are greasy as vaporized oils condense all over EVERYTHING.

Steamhead · August 2018

Leonard said:
....... Went to in-laws for thanksgiving, after they cooked the turkey 1/2 the day my eyes were stinking ( propane fueled oven/stove).

Test it with your analyzer. I bet the results are interesting

Gsmith · August 2018

@Gordy, I like the following excerpt from Oven Use part of the Whirlpool Use and Care Manual you referenced:

IMPORTANT:
The health of some birds is extremely sensitive to the
fumes given off. Exposure to the fumes may result in death to
certain birds. Always move birds to another closed and well-
ventilated room.

I guess they are referring to the canary in the coal mine.

I am generally in agreement with Jamie Hall that people need to be responsible for their own actions, but, that said, I am aware that large portions of the population these days have very little or no knowledge of practical issues or how many household items operate. I can't tell you how many of my neighbors couldn't change a light bulb. So, probably, inevitably as the population gets dumber about mechanical issues, regulations to protect them will increase.

SlamDunk · August 2018

So, probably, inevitably as the population gets dumber about mechanical issues, regulations to protect them will increase.

So true! I saw a show on PBS discussing toys that were once common, are now banned for safety reasons. "Old chemistry sets with chemicals would NEVER be sold today!", the lady said.

Followed by "Every living chemistry Nobel prize winner had one as a child".

Very little is repairable. That said, I always go to the youngest coworker to figure out iphone and computer problems for me.

EDIT: I found this link that is similar to show:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-rise-and-fall-and-rise-of-the-chemistry-set-70359831/

ChrisJ · August 2018

Gary Smith said:
@Gordy, I like the following excerpt from Oven Use part of the Whirlpool Use and Care Manual you referenced:

IMPORTANT:
The health of some birds is extremely sensitive to the
fumes given off. Exposure to the fumes may result in death to
certain birds. Always move birds to another closed and well-
ventilated room.

I guess they are referring to the canary in the coal mine.

I am generally in agreement with Jamie Hall that people need to be responsible for their own actions, but, that said, I am aware that large portions of the population these days have very little or no knowledge of practical issues or how many household items operate. I can't tell you how many of my neighbors couldn't change a light bulb. So, probably, inevitably as the population gets dumber about mechanical issues, regulations to protect them will increase.

I am too.

However, when people move into a new house or an apartment, even many intelligent people assume it's safe the way it is.

Not everyone understands how fuel burns or it's byproducts and that doesn't make them stupid.

The classic "If they sell it that way it must be safe".

Solid_Fuel_Man · August 2018

I wonder how much more it would cost if manufacturers had to follow burner designs which were inherently cleaner. Or is that not really the issue. Pretty much every gas appliance I've ever seen or worked on (which I service several commercial kitchens) are of simple bunsen burner type.

I always remove the burner and throughly clean dust etc. Which may be the main culprit for throwing out huge CO numbers. Not really sure.

jumper · August 2018

ChrisJ said:

Either the stove is dangerous or the water heater isn't.

Depends on location. Below ground with no vent CO2 can accumulate. A water heater without chimney can be okay under some circumstances? Old movies show water heaters in kitchen. Open flame near floor can ignite some cleaning chemicals? OTH more common disaster is when somebody lights up after using volatile stuff.

Fact remains millions of gas stoves but few dead people.Stick head in oven was a euphemism for snuffing oneself.

jumper · August 2018

Gordy said:
I agree. It is ironic that fart fans exhausting outdoors are code, and outside venting range hoods are mostly not.

And specific fans. So called positive. Olden days rooftop ventilator worked better but.....

Gordy · August 2018

Blame the ambulance chasers. They are the ones who inevitably give the false perception that everything is safe, or the manufacturer will be sued. Hence the bubble culture created by them.

Don't you find it ironic that fossil fueled hvac equipment, and fossil fueled DHW appliances give specific venting details in the I/O manuals? Yet the appliance manufacturers get the get out of jail free card on that specific part.

When you are on a service call for say a boiler, and notice there is a gas stove is it your responsibility to assure it is operating properly? Vented properly? Are you willing to stand in the manufacturers shoes to tell the purchaser that what they are doing is all wrong.

Is it money for the appliance manufacturers? How much does an interlock, and an exterior venting range hood of proper sizing cost for the purchaser of a gas kitchen appliance who doesn't already have one? I'll bet half if not more than the appliance purchased.

So you spend 1500 for your favorite new gas stove, and another 1500 for exterior venting exhaust hood which is interlocked.

ChrisJ · August 2018

Gordy said:
Blame the ambulance chasers. They are the ones who inevitably give the false perception that everything is safe, or the manufacturer will be sued. The bubble hence the culture.

Don't you find it ironic that fossil fueled hvac equipment, and fossil fueled DHW appliances give specific venting details in the I/O manuals? Yet the appliance manufacturers get the get out of jail free card on that specific part.

When you are on a service call for say a boiler, and notice there is a gas stove is it your responsibility to assure it is operating properly? Vented properly? Are you willing to stand in the manufacturers shoes to tell the purchaser that what they are doing is all wrong.

Is it money for the appliance manufacturers? How much does an interlock, and an exterior venting range hood of proper sizing cost for the purchaser of a gas kitchen appliance who doesn't already have one? I'll bet half if not more than the appliance purchased.

So you spend 1500 for your favorite new gas stove, and another 1500 for exterior venting exhaust hood which is interlocked.

Well,
We don't discuss pricing here, but.

I had to buy a new boiler, and then I had to pay to have a brick chimney removed, and a new B vent installed.

I also paid for the safety controls on the boiler. You know, the spill switch, roll out switch, Pressuretrol, LWCO etc.

Gordy · August 2018

Yeah, all spelled out in the owners manual no?

Also not everyone is an @ChrisJ able to do the work themselves, and research it to do it themselves.

People don't envision buying a gas stove with an extra for xyz that isn't even spelled out in the manual let alone the salesmans pitch which doesn't touch on anything more than a stylish range hood.

Gordy · August 2018

You also chose to buy a new boiler, research its proper installation, and do it yourself properly. Thank god for this site, and the helpful people here. Not everyone is that tenacious, especially when it comes to a stove. You are one of the few these days.

Leonard · August 2018

Must be safe because they sell it ....
see Gilbert U-238 Atomic Energy Lab ..... a toy lab set for kids....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_U-238_Atomic_Energy_Laboratory

Contains...... 4 uranium-bearing ore samples (autunite, torbernite, uraninite, and carnotite from the "Colorado plateau region")

... kit suggests "playing hide and seek with the gamma ray source",

SlamDunk · August 2018

Columbia University bought five of them!

GBart · August 2018

It will probably be 100 years until our society actually uses intelligence, logic, science and fact to come to decisions. Could be longer.

Currently most decisions are are based on attitudes, opinions, corporate desires and this all keeps us from moving forward.

I've been to countless homes where the gas stove is beyond dirty, food accumulating around the burners causes issues and CO, there are 3-5 people in the house smoking and they are pointing to the CO detector that is going off saying "it must be your equipment"

sigh

ratio · August 2018

GBart said:
It will probably be 100 years until our society actually uses intelligence, logic, science and fact to come to decisions. Could be longer.

Hasn't happened in the last few thousand years. I'm not too hopeful for the next.

sigh

QFT

Tim McElwain · September 2018

It is my opinion after over 50 years in the gas industry and many of those years spent in educating technicians on the safe installation of gas equipment that all gas ranges need to be power vented with a range hood and it should be interlocked with the gas range. The amount of potential carbon monoxide that can be released into a kitchen environment when 4 top burners are running along with an oven and in some cases an upper oven can exceed what would be considered a safe level of 9 PPM.

The ANSI Standard for ovens is 800 PPM which is way to high.

There also should be low level CO detectors such as CO Experts version required with 25 feet of every kitchen.

nibs · September 2018

Deep philosophical thread, and I suspect there are valid arguments on each side. The fact that more and more machines/equipment are becoming self regulating plays a part, the days of being able to see all the moving parts after removing the cover are gone, things are being done inside microchips.
One wonders why we need traffic speed limits, shouldn't everyone be aware enough to drive at safe speeds, obviously they are not, as witnessed by the need for speeding tickets.
We have the technology to stop vehicles from exceeding the local speed limit (GPS).
We also have the technology to allow each registered voter to vote on every issue. (we do not take the time to learn/study the issues).
Will we ever be mature enough not to need nanny to look after us? One hopes so but not likely in the short time I will be around.

Ban gas-fired cooking equipment?

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