Ban gas-fired cooking equipment?

Steamhead

The following article appeared on the Care2 site:

https://www.care2.com/causes/piles-of-peer-reviewed-research-show-how-bad-cooking-with-gas-is-for-your-health.html#comment-

The article takes the position that cooking with gas is inherently dangerous., due to combustion products being released into the room. I think we all know why that is- because no one ever tested the stoves in question.

I've replied to that effect. Read the article and if you agree, feel free to reply as well.

ChrisJ

To be Frank (pun intended) being alive in general is inherently dangerous.



I always run our 440 CFM exhaust hood on low if the stove or oven is lit. Low is around 200 CFM. Does it really matter in our drafty house? Probably not, but it makes me feel better.

Should gas stoves and ovens be banned? Absolutely not.

Should people be made aware of what they're working with and how to safely use it? YES

Should all states require an OUTDOOR vented exhaust fan with a gas stove? YES. This indoor recirculated charcoal filter (because it's too difficult to vent outdoors) BS needs to stop.

Jamie Hall

Bring it up in Kalifornia. Sure to pass.

ChrisJ

@Gordy
You should invent a indirectly fired gas cook top.

All of the speed of gas, with the safety of electric.

Use a gas burner installed remotely connected to each "stove surface" using heatpipes.

Then the combustion chambers can be sealed and direct vent.

Actually, I guess you don't even need heatpipes. Just make the stove surface a steel plate with a burner under it, with a sealed combustion chamber.

Gordy

Just think to before when gas stoves required a match to start the process of cooking.....

I can’t believe there was anyone left of that generation to get us to this point

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Jamie Hall CT & MA would be sure to approve it as well. LOL

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Gordy ah yes, the old wooden matches with match lit burners and ovens

jumper

So where are all the dead people?

Where are all the cancer patients who used baby powder or Roundup?

Harvey Ramer

What about kerosene stoves and refrigerators? They were more dangerous than gas stoves i would assume.

ChrisJ

I'm surprised at the comments that are essentially implying that an unvented gas appliance is perfectly safe, and to even question it is apparently silly.

Interesting.

Stoves are very often used for many hours without any ventilation during the holidays. We've had our own members on this forum say they had close calls with stoves during the holidays.

Many gas ranges can burn upwards of 70,000 btu/h yet to vent a 40,000 btu/h water heater into a house would be considered insanely dangerous. Even with it's usually short duty cycles.

Either the stove is dangerous or the water heater isn't.

SlamDunk

The best and most safest stove top is the one I have now: Induction. When the saleswoman placed a ten dollar bill between stove eye and pot of water and boiled the water without damaging the Hamilton, I was sold! Faster than gas, shuts itself off if you forget something on the eye.

Gordy

Next up silverware, glassware, and cutlery will be all plastic. To dangerous.

Gordy

Yeah induction. Limits type of cookware, and less control than a gas burner.

Gordy

Hey, @ChrisJ it’s just the world we live in. The boy in the plastic bubble comes to mind......

SlamDunk

Gordy said:

Yeah induction. Limits type of cookware, and less control than a gas burner.

true about the cookware. False about control.

ChrisJ

> @Gordy said:
> Hey, @ChrisJ it’s just the world we live in. The boy in the plastic bubble comes to mind......

I see.

How many deaths and injuries have happened from PVC vented direct vent appliances?

Gordy

Let me be clear. I’m in no way saying that gas appliances of any type are not inherently dangerous when miss used, improperly installed, and set up, and not properly maintained.

Let me ask you is an electric oven in clean mode emitting co into the room with the foods, and grease burning off inside?

We not only have to look at the appliance, but also how well sealed the envelope is. Time of year cooking is being done. Ventilation?

Most homes a few decades ago did not have but the cheap recirculating hood vents which merrily filtered the grease when turned on.

Gordy

The more studies that are done, I’m finding luck is a far bigger player in humans shear ability to exist. Rather than calculated risk.......

ChrisJ

@Gordy
Any oven in cleaning mode needs to be vented outdoors.

I guess you give a good argument. ALL stoves / ovens need an exhaust hood that vents outdoors.

You're very right regarding the envelope. When my house was built gas lights seemed to be fine. I wouldn't try them in a modern house.

Another part of this is I'm betting there's far more electrical fires in homes than CO poisonings or gas explosions. Poorly done electrical work is inherently dangerous as well and we all know there's no shortage of it.

All I'd like to see is code require outdoor vented hoods. It would also be nice for them to have to conform to some kind of requirement other than fake CFM numbers. There are many fancy looking exhaust hoods that claim very high numbers but can't come close to actually delivering.

Tinman

On Thanksgiving Day with the oven and 4 stove top burners going most of the day, my low level sensor has never exceeded 7 ppm, unvented.

Jamie Hall

Thinking about my comment and your response, @ChrisJ . I think my concern is with what has been termed the "nanny state". It is perfectly true that an unvented, improperly adjusted gas stove is hazardous. No argument. So are improperly used pesticides. So are improperly used lawn mowers. So are improperly used cars. Is there a common thread here? Um... maybe... But it is a rather deep consideration in political philosophy -- which we as a friendly community might be well advised to avoid -- as to whether, and to what degree, the State should force individuals to not do -- or in some cases, do -- things which the State perceives to be dangerous. This is, in fact, by no means a trivial question -- indeed, it is one of the more fundamental questions of political philosophy. I have my own opinions -- which I will not inflict on us -- and I am sure each of us has their own as well, more or less well formed. My only request would be that each of us truly consider their own opinions and the fundamental reasoning for them...

Gordy

I guess when you grow up in a house with knob, and tube wiring. No ground wires to outlets. No GFCI outlets. No arc fault protection. With out any incidents of electrocution.

Rode bikes both motor, and bicycle with out helmets.

Rode in a car with no airbags, no seatbelt requirements, infant car seats were no where near today’s standards.

Burned leaves in the city limits at the curb in the fall , and few complained.

Lead paint, and leaded gasoline(god I miss that smell) premium mmmm,

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

I guess when you grow up in a house with knob, and tube wiring. No ground wires to outlets. No GFCI outlets. No arc fault protection. With out any incidents of electrocution.

Rode bikes both motor, and bicycle with out helmets.

Rode in a car with no airbags, no seatbelt requirements, infant car seats were no where near today’s standards.

Burned leaves in the city limits at the curb in the fall , and few complained.

Lead paint, and leaded gasoline(god I miss that smell) premium mmmm,

Well.
That explains a lot.

Gordy

Oh yeah, push lawn mowers with out the kill safety bar, rider lawn mowers with out seat safeties, reverse kill switch safeties.

No stickers on the mower deck that said I don’t mean to call you dumb, or nothing stupid. Don’t put your hand in the discharge while the engine, and or blades are engaged.........

I know two grown men that have stubbies from cleaning out a clogged snow blower chute while running. SMDH......

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

Oh yeah, push lawn mowers with out the kill safety bar, rider lawn mowers with out seat safeties, reverse kill switch safeties.

No stickers on the mower deck that said I don’t mean to call you dumb, or nothing stupid. Don’t put your hand in the discharge while the engine, and or blades are engaged.........

I know two grown men that have stubbies from cleaning out a clogged snow blower chute while running. SMDH......

I mean,
There's a huge difference between CO which can silently kill you and doing stupid things like putting your hand in a lawn mower.

I kind of get your point, but at the same time, for the topic at hand disagree with it.

The main reason I want a code that requires outdoor vented exhaust fans is most builders are just too cheap to do it. If bathroom fans can be required, so can a properly vented range hood.

When it comes to stupid labels on everything, I agree with you.

Up until this mower, every one I had I disabled the safety bar. The only reason this one is still in use is we bag the grass now and it just makes It easier when you need to dump the bag. I'd love the model that disengages the blade but keeps the engine running, but not for $200 more.

Gordy

I agree. It is ironic that fart fans exhausting outdoors are code, and outside venting range hoods are mostly not.

Bob Harper

Gas range/ ovens are listed by ANSI with 800 ppm CO AF, which is a joke. There is no requirement in the code for having an exhaust fan with residential equipment, much less interlocking it. There is the requirement for powered MUA if a fan exhausts >450 cfm but it doesn't say anything about where or how to introduce that air much less concerning yourself with open returns, imbalanced forced air ventilation, open hearth fireplaces and draft hood equipped gas appliances below the Neutral Pressure Plane, etc. They ASSume 0.35 ACH under ASHRAE 62.2 but that is not code in many places nor is blower door testing with Worst Case Depressurization Testing (not that everyone agrees on the protocol anyway) but it's all over the place. Commercial ranges must be interlocked but cannot be used in residential applications (they still do but label them "professional" to dodge the code).
Gas ranges can be deadly. I ran a number of CO poisoning calls from ovens back in my days as a paramedic. The media does not run PSA's on the dangers of using them for heat during winter storms.
Those into combustion analysis have seen the high CO from a pot of cold water on a clean burner, sky high CO from a gas broiler or an electric range on self clean.
It's still one big goat rodeo but you ain't gonna outlaw BBQ in this country whether as a health concern or bogus zoning against cooking odors across your property line. God help us.

Gordy

To answer the question asked on the topic no!

I also question the sampling of the studies done. To many variables to consider to come to a definitive conclusion.

EBEBRATT-Ed

My personal favorite before electric lights was putting burning candles on the Christmas tree!!

NY_Rob

Installing an outdoor vent may be close to impossible after the fact in most homes. I keep a close eye on the CO level in our house and I wish our gas oven was outdoor vented. It would take a lot of work , would be unsightly and cost $$$ at this point to vent it outside. With that in mind, some common sense and the Sensorcon (turned on 24x7x365) in the next room... We always crack a window in the front room and at least one in kitchen when using the oven... the CO near the kitchen remains around 5-7ppm till the oven is turned off.
We only self-clean the oven in the seasons where we can open all the windows in the house for the full duration of the procedure. No oven cleaning during a blizzard...

ChrisJ

NY_Rob said:

Installing an outdoor vent may be close to impossible after the fact in most homes. I keep a close eye on the CO level in our house and I wish our gas oven was outdoor vented. It would take a lot of work , would be unsightly and cost $$$ at this point to vent it outside. With that in mind, some common sense and the Sensorcon (turned on 24x7x365) in the next room... We always crack a window in the front room and at least one in kitchen when using the oven... the CO near the kitchen remains around 5-7ppm till the oven is turned off.
We only self-clean the oven in the seasons where we can open all the windows in the house for the full duration of the procedure. No oven cleaning during a blizzard...

Ok.

If you had to install a gas water heater, would you find it acceptable to vent it into the home because running a vent is difficult, or close to impossible?

I'm sure you wouldn't even consider it. You would either find a way to vent it outside, or recommend an alternate solution.

@Steamhead Whats your opinion on the whole situation?
I know you've found stoves that were burning terribly and no one knew.

Jamie Hall

Keep in mind that once upon a time, long ago and, I think, in a galaxy far, far away from this one, I was a code enforcement officer. Our objective was to ensure that people were safe and stayed that way. Our underlying assumption was that people were also intelligent. As a result, we (there were four of us) allowed a lot of flex and common sense in our discussions with builders/farmers/homeowners... whoever we worked with.

That, as I say, was apparently in a galaxy far, far away from this one.

So the question is... do we have appointed bureaucratic experts to tell the general public who must be assumed to be incapable dimwits how to do pretty much everything, or...

I promised I wouldn't let my own feelings get too much into this, but here goes: if you want to tell me what guards to have on my machinery; where to vent my stove; what chemicals not to use on my invasive weeds in my fields, etc etc. you had best either have a very specific warrant or stop at my front gate.

and yes, @Gordy I managed to stick a finger into a piece of farm machinery (the drag chain on a manure spreader). By the grace of God the surgeons were able to save it. I'm not immune to lapses in judgement and concentration. None of us are. But I'll rise or fall by my own efforts.

Brewbeer

Good topic. I recently removed a dead microwave over my stove. It was vented back into the kitchen. Before the microwave (and prior to my ownership), the house had a range hood that vented into the attic. When I get around to replacing the microwave, I'll be cutting through the wall to install exterior venting.

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

Keep in mind that once upon a time, long ago and, I think, in a galaxy far, far away from this one, I was a code enforcement officer. Our objective was to ensure that people were safe and stayed that way. Our underlying assumption was that people were also intelligent. As a result, we (there were four of us) allowed a lot of flex and common sense in our discussions with builders/farmers/homeowners... whoever we worked with.

That, as I say, was apparently in a galaxy far, far away from this one.

So the question is... do we have appointed bureaucratic experts to tell the general public who must be assumed to be incapable dimwits how to do pretty much everything, or...

I promised I wouldn't let my own feelings get too much into this, but here goes: if you want to tell me what guards to have on my machinery; where to vent my stove; what chemicals not to use on my invasive weeds in my fields, etc etc. you had best either have a very specific warrant or stop at my front gate.

and yes, @Gordy I managed to stick a finger into a piece of farm machinery (the drag chain on a manure spreader). By the grace of God the surgeons were able to save it. I'm not immune to lapses in judgement and concentration. None of us are. But I'll rise or fall by my own efforts.

Well,

Before building codes, they did unvented gas heaters, such as the Clow Gasteam were sold and used by many. The thought of "if it was dangerous they wouldn't sell it" was assumed by many, even back then.

Jamie Hall

Brewbeer said:

Good topic. I recently removed a dead microwave over my stove. It was vented back into the kitchen. Before the microwave (and prior to my ownership), the house had a range hood that vented into the attic. When I get around to replacing the microwave, I'll be cutting through the wall to install exterior venting.

Vented into the attic? Oh dear. That is what I mean by not so bright -- a good building inspector, without any reference to a code, should have had the intelligence to realise that that just wasn't too bright. So should whoever the contractor was who installed the things in the first place.

And, lest anyone mistake me, indeed if it is possible a kitchen range -- gas or electric -- should have a good hood venting to the outside. If it is possible to do so. (and, if there is any real length to the ductwork, it should have very good grease filters at the inlet and ways to inspect and clean it out, by the way). For that matter, any fuel burning appliance should be vented outside. Just makes good common sense.

But do we need it handed down from the mountain on stone tablets?

GBart

jumper said:

So where are all the dead people?

Where are all the cancer patients who used baby powder or Roundup?

One just got over 200 million dollars smartass

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/10/637722786/jury-awards-terminally-ill-man-289-million-in-lawsuit-against-monsanto

GBart

In movies like Pale Rider or Open Range do you root for the Robber Barons or Clint Eastwood, Robert Duvall and Kevin Costner???............lesson learned?

GBart

If you don't believe me believe Ron Reagan, here he is with Nancy and Patti touting the "amazingness" of electricity for GE, originally he was hired as a GE mouthpiece then got elected for them as Gov of Cali.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=55&v=u5Lz1C53RwI

Sal Santamaura

jumper said:

So where are all the dead people?...

Cemeteries, urns or scattered.

jumper said:

...Where are all the cancer patients who used baby powder or Roundup?

Same places.

Jamie Hall said:

...Our underlying assumption was that people were also intelligent.

For a variety of off-topic reasons, your assumption is no longer valid, if it ever was.

Jamie Hall said:

Bring it up in Kalifornia. Sure to pass.

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

...CT & MA would be sure to approve it as well...

As a 40-year resident of California, I'm not so sure banning gas-fired cooking equipment would be a good idea. Although it might reduce greenhouse gas and other types of air pollution (depending on electrical source), continuing to allow CO-spewers likely has a more important benefit, namely, helping to minimize worldwide human over population.

SlamDunk

I can just see land lords embracing the idea of running vents to the outside of every single apartment in every single tenement in all five boroughs. And each vent would have to be independent and run vertically above the roof line to prevent poisoning another apartment, right?

ChrisJ

> @SlamDunk said:
> I can just see land lords embracing the idea of running vents to the outside of every single apartment in every single tenement in all five boroughs. And each vent would have to be independent and run vertically above the roof line to prevent poisoning another apartment, right?

Do landlords embrace all of the codes in NYC?
Like no unions on gas piping? GFCI / AFCI requirements? Redundant controls? CO / Smoke detector requirements?


I've shared my thoughts on the subject.
I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.

Cheers.