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How to solder 101

24

Comments

  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    well said Ed

    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,022
    I would always encourage an apprentice to clean ALL fittings and tube. It is a best practices skill. Same with reaming the internal burr.
    I have seen tube not solder properly due to the printing on the outside of the tube..

    When they manufacturer copper tube they use a drawing fluid. Ideally the friction burns this off, but not always 100%. Cleaning and brushing assures your best chance at a perfect joint.

    Be amazed at how many joints that I have disassembled over the years have spots that did not solder. Novice solderers just ring around the outside.

    When I took my journeymen plumbing test they cut apart the 1" joints we soldered for the test, most failed as even a sliver of copper tube without solder was a fail.

    If speed is of the essence, these internal/ external brushes in a cordless drill make quick work out of production fitting. I think this is a MillRose brand.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,453
    @hot rod , I never saw those brushes but they look good. I just by regular ones and cut the handles off with side cutters and chuck em up for the fittings, mesh sand cloth for the pipe although an external brush would be nice
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,022
    Mine is a Santo Tool from Putnam Valley, NY they may not be around anymore.

    Looks like Blue Monster has a similar product.


    http://cleanfit.com/power-tube-brush-blue-monster-power-deuce.shtml
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,453
    nice. didn't realize blue monster and mill rose were the same
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    Thanks Dan for the cool write up! And, if there still any nay-sayers, I'd be happy to post another video with whatever criteria you wish!!
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,513
    Thanks for the inspiration!
    Retired and loving it.
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,831
    As my buddy from up North by Saratoga, Mark Hunt said to his customers: "you see this wedding band on my finger??? That's what all my joints look like! If they don't when I'm done, you can take a $100 bucks off what you owe me for EACH ONE!" (With the intensity only those of us who know him can picture..ha ha). If that's not a self motivator to make clean joints, I don't know what is!

    I personally use the 3 M pad to flick any drips that collect at bottom of joint. Jimmy The Gent Burke prefers those brown cotton gloves and flicks with the forefinger. I generally abhor gloves, but I've had my share of cuts, burns, and stitches...comes with the territory. Mad Dog
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    I don't know Mark well but i could sort of picture that in my head. Like many people I have strong opinions on what a pretty joint is and what a pretty joint isn't. Once in a while I'll get a runner; if it's hidden I'll let it go, but if it's in plain sight I'll sand away at the runner till it's gone. I always wipe with a rag after it's set, that layer of flux needs to get wiped away. Many guys don't and it shows; more of a brownish tinge remains. Thanks for partaking in the solder conversation; it's near and dear to me!
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
    vibert_cMikeAmann
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
    A perfect solder joint to me is one which looks like I took a silver Sharpie and drew a nice line around the pipe. Always followed with a wet rag to remove remaining flux, and I abhor solder dribbled at the bottom.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    MikeAmann
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,588
    Real men solder with a turbo torch or oxy acet while flowing nitrogen. :wink:
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ratio
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,831
    Oh, but you do Gary. In fact, the first time I met Hunt was at Jim Davis Seminar somewhere in Penna. You were there with your newlywed. First time I met you as well. Mad Dog
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    Wow I didn’t know Mark was at that meeting. Funny, I spoke with Jim D today. I have a nasty natural draft issue; really cost me some time. if you have Marks phone or email can you message me? Got a Peerless question. He stopped my my office a few months ago but I can’t find his card
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    Chris then I’m just a lil boy then, no o2 on our torches
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    Fuel Man we would get along well. I’m a dry rag man through. My opinion is the wet rag can possibly allow the flux to settle in. As long as the joints are crisp we are good to go!
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,588
    > @GW said:
    > Chris then I’m just a lil boy then, no o2 on our torches


    No swirl tips either? It's OK you get a free pass ;)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    GW
  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 2,762
    Me I have to see an bead , no shadows... Anyone working near me **** ... No way would I wipe with my finger , maybe just an snot-nose ...
    I have enough experience to know , that I dont know it all
    ChrisJ
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,831
    You got it Gary. Mad Dog
    GW
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    Chris, I'm not very well versed on torch hardware, but this little mapp gas hand-held torch burns very hot. I like lots of heat
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    How do y'all check the back side of the joint?
    I use one of those little dental/inspection mirrors and flashlight... anything better?
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • the_donut
    the_donut Member Posts: 374
    That’s what I use. Or I use my phone on video mode if flashlight is out of batteries.
    NY_Rob
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    that's the beauty of the fitting 'drinking solder', if it gets gobbled, no real need to look!
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
    MikeAmann
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
    I do a lot of oxy/acetylene silfos on refrigeration. After you've done a few thousand of those, soft soldering is very similar just lower heat and plumbing solder flows better. The feel of how much solder is needed per joint size and if it doesn't simply run out is a near guarantee of a leak-free and full joint. We all have some that seem to defy logic though, generally contaminants are the problem.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    GWChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,588
    > @GW said:
    > Chris, I'm not very well versed on torch hardware, but this little mapp gas hand-held torch burns very hot. I like lots of heat

    Swirl tips aka a turbo torch burns much hotter than a standard mapp torch. My smallest turbo torch tip produces a tiny flame that'll turn 1/2 copper orange fairly fast. They're generally used for brazing and whistle very loud. I started wearing ear plugs with the larger tips.


    The swirl tips mix the fuel and air a lot better than normal torches so they burn much hotter. Hot enough for brazing though not as hot as oxy acet. But it's nice not to have to deal with oxygen tanks.

    I started using my turbo torch for soft soldering because my little mapp torch got a leak and it's not worth me replacing.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    GW
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,831
    Have to polish up the joints, but always try to be super neat. Can always clean up joints with open mesh. Mad Do
    GWMikeAmann
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    I'm just going to drop this right here.
    My propress joints sparkle like Mr. Clean's front tooth.
    NY_RobratioIronman
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,588
    > @Harvey Ramer said:
    > I'm just going to drop this right here.
    > My propress joints sparkle like Mr. Clean's front tooth.

    Yeah....I guess ProPress and a cheap grill kind of go hand in hand...... ;)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Harvey RamerMikeAmann
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,831
    Propress is neat and novel, I 've done quite a bit, up to 4", but ONLY time will tell how long those O-Rings hold up.
    A good solder joint can go 50 years, NO?
    Mad Dog
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,588
    > @Mad Dog said:
    > Propress is neat and novel, I 've done quite a bit, up to 4", but ONLY time will tell how long those O-Rings hold up.
    > A good solder joint can go 50 years, NO?
    > Mad Dog

    I've got silver solder joints that are 85 years old.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,831
    Even better. I love silver soldering. What's the largest joint you ever did? I've done up to 8 inch. Lots of fun, especially with 15%
    she flows like buttermilk! Mad Dog
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,831
    edited February 2018
    On many, big NYC construction jobs, all the domestic water copper, except the last few joints (croton stub outs) are silver brazed.
    Easier to see if you have a good joint vis-a-vis
    Soft soldering. Seeing more & more Propress, but still VERY expensive. Mad Dog
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    I believe soldered joints are better, provided they are done right. But, Propress seems to work very well and it increases the speed and efficiency of my work. So I will continue to use it.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited February 2018
    I think the propress warranty says volumes on its potential longevity. The propress valves not so much. 50 years on fittings, and 2 years on valves. Of course there is all the stipulations in the fine print. I would assume valves have a shorter warranty do to the activity of opening, and closing periodically.

    Shark bite fittings carry a 25 year warranty.

    Durability of a joint at rest verses a potential shock load is what I wonder about. Hammering, surging, and someone thrashing around in the basement hitting exposed plumbing with what ever. Using pipes to hang laundry, and what ever. That comes down to pipe anchoring attachments properly spaced, and placed.
    MikeAmann
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    Mad Dog said:

    Even better. I love silver soldering. What's the largest joint you ever did? I've done up to 8 inch. Lots of fun, especially with 15%
    she flows like buttermilk! Mad Dog

    I haven't had occasion to work with anything larger than 3" copper.

    How much time does it take to do an 8" joint? Between cutting, prep, and soldering?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,588
    What do propress and ductboard have in common? There's none in my house.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ratioscottie_2
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,588
    > @Harvey Ramer said:
    > I believe soldered joints are better, provided they are done right. But, Propress seems to work very well and it increases the speed and efficiency of my work. So I will continue to use it.

    You need to do what you think is best. It's as simple as that. I'm sure you wouldn't be using press fittings if you didn't trust them.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,831
    Harvey. With an Oxyacetylene set up, you can do an 8" joint in about 2 or 4 minutes, depending on position & access. It's been about 15 yrs since I did them at a Hospital in Bed-Stuy (do or die). More recently, I've done 4" and that will take a little less time. Hey, no need to 'splain:
    Gotta stay profitable. That being said, I'd never install megapress in gas in my home. Mad Dog
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    The pro and mega will probably outlast all of us. That squeeze basically bonds that metal together. Not really sure the o ring is doing much work
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
    Well, I've had 1 yes 1 pro-press leak. Only job I ever used it too. It was spec'd and the tool was provided, Milwaukee too failed and Nibco loaner finished the job. All 2", about 1,000 joints total. The 2" e'll that leaked, well it got soldered as it would have required removing a T and a TA.

    My challenge to anyone is to remove the O ring and press it, it will leak badly. It's threaded or solder for me. I consider press to be similar to Victaulic. Goes together nice and quick and is generally leak free for the first few years, but after that it's anyone's guess.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    edited February 2018
    I love my roll of solder and my ridgid 300 as much as the next guy, but one out of 1000? How many if you soldered all of that? That’s good in my opinion.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
    ethicalpaul