How to solder 101

GW

well said Ed

hot_rod

I would always encourage an apprentice to clean ALL fittings and tube. It is a best practices skill. Same with reaming the internal burr.
I have seen tube not solder properly due to the printing on the outside of the tube..

When they manufacturer copper tube they use a drawing fluid. Ideally the friction burns this off, but not always 100%. Cleaning and brushing assures your best chance at a perfect joint.

Be amazed at how many joints that I have disassembled over the years have spots that did not solder. Novice solderers just ring around the outside.

When I took my journeymen plumbing test they cut apart the 1" joints we soldered for the test, most failed as even a sliver of copper tube without solder was a fail.

If speed is of the essence, these internal/ external brushes in a cordless drill make quick work out of production fitting. I think this is a MillRose brand.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@hot rod , I never saw those brushes but they look good. I just by regular ones and cut the handles off with side cutters and chuck em up for the fittings, mesh sand cloth for the pipe although an external brush would be nice

hot_rod

Mine is a Santo Tool from Putnam Valley, NY they may not be around anymore.

Looks like Blue Monster has a similar product.


http://cleanfit.com/power-tube-brush-blue-monster-power-deuce.shtml

EBEBRATT-Ed

nice. didn't realize blue monster and mill rose were the same

GW

Thanks Dan for the cool write up! And, if there still any nay-sayers, I'd be happy to post another video with whatever criteria you wish!!

DanHolohan

Thanks for the inspiration!

Mad Dog_2

As my buddy from up North by Saratoga, Mark Hunt said to his customers: "you see this wedding band on my finger??? That's what all my joints look like! If they don't when I'm done, you can take a $100 bucks off what you owe me for EACH ONE!" (With the intensity only those of us who know him can picture..ha ha). If that's not a self motivator to make clean joints, I don't know what is!

I personally use the 3 M pad to flick any drips that collect at bottom of joint. Jimmy The Gent Burke prefers those brown cotton gloves and flicks with the forefinger. I generally abhor gloves, but I've had my share of cuts, burns, and stitches...comes with the territory. Mad Dog

GW

I don't know Mark well but i could sort of picture that in my head. Like many people I have strong opinions on what a pretty joint is and what a pretty joint isn't. Once in a while I'll get a runner; if it's hidden I'll let it go, but if it's in plain sight I'll sand away at the runner till it's gone. I always wipe with a rag after it's set, that layer of flux needs to get wiped away. Many guys don't and it shows; more of a brownish tinge remains. Thanks for partaking in the solder conversation; it's near and dear to me!

Solid_Fuel_Man

A perfect solder joint to me is one which looks like I took a silver Sharpie and drew a nice line around the pipe. Always followed with a wet rag to remove remaining flux, and I abhor solder dribbled at the bottom.

ChrisJ

Real men solder with a turbo torch or oxy acet while flowing nitrogen.

Mad Dog_2

Oh, but you do Gary. In fact, the first time I met Hunt was at Jim Davis Seminar somewhere in Penna. You were there with your newlywed. First time I met you as well. Mad Dog

GW

Wow I didn’t know Mark was at that meeting. Funny, I spoke with Jim D today. I have a nasty natural draft issue; really cost me some time. if you have Marks phone or email can you message me? Got a Peerless question. He stopped my my office a few months ago but I can’t find his card

GW

Chris then I’m just a lil boy then, no o2 on our torches

GW

Fuel Man we would get along well. I’m a dry rag man through. My opinion is the wet rag can possibly allow the flux to settle in. As long as the joints are crisp we are good to go!

ChrisJ

> @GW said:
> Chris then I’m just a lil boy then, no o2 on our torches


No swirl tips either? It's OK you get a free pass

Big Ed_4

Me I have to see an bead , no shadows... Anyone working near me **** ... No way would I wipe with my finger , maybe just an snot-nose ...

Mad Dog_2

You got it Gary. Mad Dog

GW

Chris, I'm not very well versed on torch hardware, but this little mapp gas hand-held torch burns very hot. I like lots of heat

NY_Rob

How do y'all check the back side of the joint?
I use one of those little dental/inspection mirrors and flashlight... anything better?

the_donut

That’s what I use. Or I use my phone on video mode if flashlight is out of batteries.

GW

that's the beauty of the fitting 'drinking solder', if it gets gobbled, no real need to look!

Solid_Fuel_Man

I do a lot of oxy/acetylene silfos on refrigeration. After you've done a few thousand of those, soft soldering is very similar just lower heat and plumbing solder flows better. The feel of how much solder is needed per joint size and if it doesn't simply run out is a near guarantee of a leak-free and full joint. We all have some that seem to defy logic though, generally contaminants are the problem.

ChrisJ

> @GW said:
> Chris, I'm not very well versed on torch hardware, but this little mapp gas hand-held torch burns very hot. I like lots of heat

Swirl tips aka a turbo torch burns much hotter than a standard mapp torch. My smallest turbo torch tip produces a tiny flame that'll turn 1/2 copper orange fairly fast. They're generally used for brazing and whistle very loud. I started wearing ear plugs with the larger tips.


The swirl tips mix the fuel and air a lot better than normal torches so they burn much hotter. Hot enough for brazing though not as hot as oxy acet. But it's nice not to have to deal with oxygen tanks.

I started using my turbo torch for soft soldering because my little mapp torch got a leak and it's not worth me replacing.

Mad Dog_2

Have to polish up the joints, but always try to be super neat. Can always clean up joints with open mesh. Mad Do

Harvey Ramer

I'm just going to drop this right here.
My propress joints sparkle like Mr. Clean's front tooth.

ChrisJ

> @Harvey Ramer said:
> I'm just going to drop this right here.
> My propress joints sparkle like Mr. Clean's front tooth.

Yeah....I guess ProPress and a cheap grill kind of go hand in hand......

Mad Dog_2

Propress is neat and novel, I 've done quite a bit, up to 4", but ONLY time will tell how long those O-Rings hold up.
A good solder joint can go 50 years, NO?
Mad Dog

ChrisJ

> @Mad Dog said:
> Propress is neat and novel, I 've done quite a bit, up to 4", but ONLY time will tell how long those O-Rings hold up.
> A good solder joint can go 50 years, NO?
> Mad Dog

I've got silver solder joints that are 85 years old.

Mad Dog_2

Even better. I love silver soldering. What's the largest joint you ever did? I've done up to 8 inch. Lots of fun, especially with 15%
she flows like buttermilk! Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2

On many, big NYC construction jobs, all the domestic water copper, except the last few joints (croton stub outs) are silver brazed.
Easier to see if you have a good joint vis-a-vis
Soft soldering. Seeing more & more Propress, but still VERY expensive. Mad Dog

Harvey Ramer

I believe soldered joints are better, provided they are done right. But, Propress seems to work very well and it increases the speed and efficiency of my work. So I will continue to use it.

Gordy

I think the propress warranty says volumes on its potential longevity. The propress valves not so much. 50 years on fittings, and 2 years on valves. Of course there is all the stipulations in the fine print. I would assume valves have a shorter warranty do to the activity of opening, and closing periodically.

Shark bite fittings carry a 25 year warranty.

Durability of a joint at rest verses a potential shock load is what I wonder about. Hammering, surging, and someone thrashing around in the basement hitting exposed plumbing with what ever. Using pipes to hang laundry, and what ever. That comes down to pipe anchoring attachments properly spaced, and placed.

Harvey Ramer

Mad Dog said:

Even better. I love silver soldering. What's the largest joint you ever did? I've done up to 8 inch. Lots of fun, especially with 15%
she flows like buttermilk! Mad Dog

I haven't had occasion to work with anything larger than 3" copper.

How much time does it take to do an 8" joint? Between cutting, prep, and soldering?

ChrisJ

What do propress and ductboard have in common? There's none in my house.

ChrisJ

> @Harvey Ramer said:
> I believe soldered joints are better, provided they are done right. But, Propress seems to work very well and it increases the speed and efficiency of my work. So I will continue to use it.

You need to do what you think is best. It's as simple as that. I'm sure you wouldn't be using press fittings if you didn't trust them.

Mad Dog_2

Harvey. With an Oxyacetylene set up, you can do an 8" joint in about 2 or 4 minutes, depending on position & access. It's been about 15 yrs since I did them at a Hospital in Bed-Stuy (do or die). More recently, I've done 4" and that will take a little less time. Hey, no need to 'splain:
Gotta stay profitable. That being said, I'd never install megapress in gas in my home. Mad Dog

GW

The pro and mega will probably outlast all of us. That squeeze basically bonds that metal together. Not really sure the o ring is doing much work

Solid_Fuel_Man

Well, I've had 1 yes 1 pro-press leak. Only job I ever used it too. It was spec'd and the tool was provided, Milwaukee too failed and Nibco loaner finished the job. All 2", about 1,000 joints total. The 2" e'll that leaked, well it got soldered as it would have required removing a T and a TA.

My challenge to anyone is to remove the O ring and press it, it will leak badly. It's threaded or solder for me. I consider press to be similar to Victaulic. Goes together nice and quick and is generally leak free for the first few years, but after that it's anyone's guess.

GW

I love my roll of solder and my ridgid 300 as much as the next guy, but one out of 1000? How many if you soldered all of that? That’s good in my opinion.