How to solder 101

Gordy

How many labor hours were saved by pressing verses soldering?

j a_2

Harvey Ramer said:

Mad Dog said:

Even better. I love silver soldering. What's the largest joint you ever did? I've done up to 8 inch. Lots of fun, especially with 15%
she flows like buttermilk! Mad Dog

I haven't had occasion to work with anything larger than 3" copper.

How much time does it take to do an 8" joint? Between cutting, prep, and soldering?

Two inch and over we tinned...boss man would not accept a call that there was a leak..he said deal with it...with jobs scarce back then, you were fringen panicked to screw up...‘tis not an easy business, and to make it you best be good...and to be good, well I believe it’s born into you..you either are are not.....it really is an art, same goes for all the trades...there are good and bad, pretty sad the unions spend more time protecting the bad than on education....whoops that’s a rant, ny bad

EBEBRATT-Ed

Anything with a rubber o ring is going to fail........someday. Nobody knows when someday is. I think I started pressing probably 2004 or 5 I think so it's starting to get some mileage on it.

I like Victaulic, very seldom have an issue with it and I have seen it NOT leak with some awful grooves.

In my opinion their gaskets carry a higher temp rating than their really good for on heating. Stay south of 200 deg and your probably ok. Over 200 deg you will have a shower when the system cools off. The rubber looses it's stretch if overheated

We had a few process jobs where the temp control "ran away" and overheated the system. Not Good

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Mad Dog , I don't think I would care to do 8" silver. The biggest I did was 3 or 4" on refrigeration and it was a copper to steel joint on a heavy suction accumulator. Took a tremendous amount of heat to get the steel up to temp

Mad Dog_2

It's fun and with oxy-acety...faster than u think. Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2

The first space shuttle explosion haunts me: o-ring failure. I watched it on TV live in HS. On water or heat, ok, big deal water damage. GAS?????? No thanks. Mad Dog

GW

when we get a slow day, i'll remove the orings from a gas and a water fillting and pressurize, see what happens.

Gordy

I have seen water damage happen with other types of connections, and piping. Huge amount of dollars. Older CP
VC pipe failure while HO was on vacation with setback, and compression fitting failure, vacant house with setback..........

EBEBRATT-Ed

Everybody wants fast and quick with labor rates high. Pex, pro press, mega press shark bite can't blame them but failure and flooding is expensive. Never mind explosions

hot_rod

GW said:

The pro and mega will probably outlast all of us. That squeeze basically bonds that metal together. Not really sure the o ring is doing much work

I'm not sure about that bonding going on
The O-ring is 100% of the seal, the crimp just hold it all together.

Maybe if the tool heated them red hot, that is how the spin the ends of copper shut with friction forming.

I've tried a handful of various brands with O-ring removed and pressed, they leak worse than an un-soldered joint.

GW

Ah yes well I guess I’m an optimist. When I was a wee lad I was helping this plumber and he forgot to solder a joint in the old house basement re pipe. He was throughly unenthused when I pointed out a joint that escaped his wonderfullness. That stupid little 1/2” joint sat there and didn’t drip a bit. He scurried to the maIn and shut it off. It was just metal on metal, no good reason why it held .

But, alas, you’ve taken the wind out of my sails. I’ll continue to pinch joints in any case

Edit- Held not Help!

GW

Had to move the set up the other way to allow for finished room in basement

No couplings No new sweat fittings, just longer pieces is tube

Two new PP 90s

Soldering 101 😄

hot_rod

no bracket on that filter, could be a lot of stress on the joints from the weight and also torque when they un-screw the canister?

I like the bypass piping.

GW

Yes I never had a problem turning the canister in the past. Then, I hadn’t changed the filter in four years LOL. I could not get the canister off, even with my kid applying pressure the opposite direction. When I took it all apart to replumb the whole thing, I had it on the floor and then had greater leverage, more tools. The canister spun off like a breeze. I summer it up to not relieving the pressure😄

GW

And there’s 3 split rings on the vertical section. Ain’t gone go anywhere

rick in Alaska

I have found if you use two wrenches on filters, and put the handles 180 degrees apart, that almost all filters will come right off with ease, when just using one wrench won't budge it.
Rick

GW

Thanks but I didn’t have two wrenches. Once I had the entire carcass on the floor: A 1” pipe In the housing, and a wrench, but I barely pushed

hot_rod

A canister wrench is handy if you change filters often. Also some stem lube on the threads and gasket helps.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I just use my hands.

GW

Alan this is a family station, no selfies 💪

GW

Leak😀

https://youtu.be/wFEAH0akrts

Yes the wiring is lame, electrician is coming

delcrossv

GW said:

Kinda like the old timer electrician that subs for our regular electrician----to see if a wire is hot he puts one finger tip on the ground (metal box or neutral wire), and then he taps the black wire with his other finger. Now for me that's nuts.

That's SOP. Just make sure it's two fingers of THE SAME HAND. 😬

delcrossv

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

You should be happy that you weren't wiping lead closet bends with your fingers in the 50's. I think most guys were using asbestos cloths.

Shower pans and used a chamois ( I'm not that nuts)

EBEBRATT-Ed

Took me a while to get the hang of soldering, early on I was terrible. But the last 30 years if I got a leak it was very seldom (of course there are times your fighting water).

But if i did get a leak it would be on brand new fittings and it would be a joint you could get to easily. I guess you just need to get humbled once in a while.

retiredguy

Any time I had to solder copper larger than 2" I preferred to use Sil-Fos 15. It was a little expensive and my boss always complained about the extra time and cost, but it never leaked and would accept vibration.

GW

Ed, no shame here. We are moving at a good clip so a leaker here and there doesn’t phase us too much. Our general rule is if we hit it with a torch once and at leaks again, the fitting is coming apart for a thorough cleaning.

GW

Retiredguy Yes that’s very time consuming. Got to do what you Gotta do. We just fiddle with the house stuff, hardly ever see anything bigger than inch and a quarter.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Once an old guy taught me to use tinning flux.....now it's a bet. If I have more than 2 leaks in 100 joints then I buy the guys lunch. If it's more than the 2% then they buy me lunch. 

Sometimes I miss those days working with a small crew. Now I work alone out of my own van. Owning my own business has its perks, but sometimes the fun competition is lacking. 

Tinning flux!

GW

Solid—-here here 😀 I know the general hierarchy of soldering skills in my crew, and when things really get hairy at the end of the day, I kind of push people aside and I take over. But this leak was all mine. My crew had already left.
two leaks out of 100, that seems about where I’m at. But the speed at which were moving, possibly above average

EBEBRATT-Ed

I find the faster I go (which isn't fast any more) the less leaks I have!!

NoKrode tinning flux (or regular is ok) with Silvabrite solder.

Never had much luck with 95/5

The last place I worked the shop supplied "utility" flux which I never liked. NoKorode or nothing!!!

I did some 3" suction line accumulators once steel to copper with silver solder took a big oxy rig to do that

GW

Interesting Ed, I never seemed to notice a difference in Flux, I've always used the Utility brand. Yes we use the Silvabrite as well.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I use silvabrite as well. We can still get leaded solder and I use that on any and all heating. 

The Silvabite is for domestic. 

I do a fair amount of refrigeration piping which is a lot of 2" and under. Harris 5 is what I've always used on copper/copper with great success. Oxy acetylene on all of that. Although I'd like to try Oxy Propane to save some money, and see how that works.

GW

Solid cool i haven't soldered with a B tank is 20 years or so. Mapp is very hot. I use 50-50 on Zone valves and the very rare DWV copper joint, or soldering on a tubular trap (which is almost never), when i want a giant bead. 50-50 solder is 2 or 3 x more money that Silvabrirte, last time I bought some. I did Oxy/Acetylene on some refer once, took me a moment to get used to it---burned a hole in the copper.

MikeAmann

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@hot rod , I never saw those brushes but they look good. I just by regular ones and cut the handles off with side cutters and chuck em up for the fittings, mesh sand cloth for the pipe although an external brush would be nice

Any brand of one of these works great for the internal burr, not just for copper.

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/05751003

Solid_Fuel_Man

50/50 is the same price here at my supplier.  But it used to be much cheaper. So I'm guessing it will surpass the Silver solders soon. I bought several pounders last year. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

I just used Silvabrite on everything even though it's probably $25/roll?

I used some old 50/50 one day and I was so used to 95/5 and Silvabrite I wasn't ready for it. Hardly takes any heat and flows like water.

@GW Yeah it's just one of those things my co workers had no problems with Utility so it's just one of my quirks. You get burned once and never go back. It always seemed to corrode the outside of the fittings green if you don't wash it off as well

TAG

Did you just reheat that leaking joint ? For me as just an occasional user I find the silverbrite (sp) is very easy to use .. so I stick with it. Use the map gas. From what I remember reading a while ago it makes a strong joint. I have some 50/50 for use with copper roofing/ gutter work (my house is slate) .. I have trouble using it.

How do you like the Viessmann indirects. I have two of the white ones going in my new project ... not turned on yet. I forget if they are 40 or 42g

GW

Tag yes I fluxed and nuked and the solder did its job. At times (rare) I’ll band saw or sawzall the middle of the fitting, heat the pieces off and start over. I hate couplings 😫 just my personal OCD. If the day is super long (evening) I MAY use a coupling if I can’t drain the water

viessmann water heaters are in liters, 42, 53, 79. I kind a like them, but it bugs me that the top of the tank is dome-like: cannot rest anything on there without it tumbling to the floor. It also bugs me that the tappings are stacked immediately on top of each other, really corny engineering.

yes shifty 50 is a pain, much less heat needed. But when you need a big ole bead (dwv copper and tubular brass), gotta grab the leaded roll 

ChrisJ

GW said:

Tag yes I fluxed and nuked and the solder did its job. At times (rare) I’ll band saw or sawzall the middle of the fitting, heat the pieces off and start over. I hate couplings 😫 just my personal OCD. If the day is super long (evening) I MAY use a coupling if I can’t drain the water

viessmann water heaters are in liters, 42, 53, 79. I kind a like them, but it bugs me that the top of the tank is dome-like: cannot rest anything on there without it tumbling to the floor. It also bugs me that the tappings are stacked immediately on top of each other, really corny engineering.

yes shifty 50 is a pain, much less heat needed. But when you need a big ole bead (dwv copper and tubular brass), gotta grab the leaded roll 

I hate couplings too so what I do is add something instead.  Sometimes you get lucky and you can sneak a union in and it looks intentional.  Others you end up with a new slop sink, bird bath, 4 hose bibs and an irrigation system and a bidet but all those are ok because they look intentional and not like 7 mistakes because you burned the flux a bunch of times.

GW

ahh we are feathers of the same bird. My guys must think I have lost my brain at times. "it only hurts for a few minutes" i tell myself as I slice into a piping system (to get at a solder leak). Unsoldering old joints and resoldering doesn't phase me.