Carrier moves jobs to Mexico

As long as folks continue to shop at the box and mart stores we will have low cost and low end quality products from third world countries.
But income dictates that people shop for "everyday low prices" So how does this cycle end?

Would higher minimum wages solve anything?

We and all the politicians identify the problem, what I'm not hearing are viable fixes.

Outside magazine, this month, highlighted companies that manufacturer some or all of their products in the US.
Granted they are high end sporting goods.
New Balance, Timberland, Wyoming Bourbon, etc.

It is a sign that made in the US is on peoples mind.

Most people don't get it until it affects them or theirs.

Too many fell for the rhetoric.

All the things people fought for in the early 1900's gone.

Hopefully this time we learn.

I too replaced two central air systems with Carriers three years ago. It won't happen the next time around. People are aware and do care about "American Made" albeit late in the game and after it affected their livelihood or that of other family members. I think the problem will continue because it feeds on itself. The more jobs that are moved abroad, the smaller the middle class becomes. The smaller the middle class, the larger the poor and who shops for the cheapest product? The poorest people. They don't have the luxury of considering the life cycle costs of any product. They are simply trying to get past the current crisis, in their household. It's a sad state of affairs but I think Hillary may be on to something with her proposed "Exit Tax". If it is significant enough to reduce the value of moving off-shore and to provide a source of income to create jobs rebuilding our infrastructure, it could put people back to work, in good paying jobs and rebuild the middle class who will then be in a position to buy better quality. The Big "IF" in that whole proposition is if she will follow through and "IF" we have a Congress and Senate that will get off their asses and do their jobs for the American people or if they will continue to sell out for their own personal gain.

This ad was in a recent HVAC trade magazine, the company is in Texas.
At first glance this seems pretty impressive, however the first two words apply to about any USA brand, the third word would no longer apply to Carrier.

But do we notice where the components of a lot of other brands are built that go into the USA assembly?.....China.....Mexico.....Slovakia.......Taiwan.
Copper from Mexico & Canada. All these components could be imported here and the assembly happens in the USA.
The cardboard packaging and the I&O manual still seem to be of USA quality.

35 some years ago I was looking at a "new" circuit breaker line at a trade show. They were made somewhere just north of the equator in this hemisphere. At that time anything made outside the USA was frowned upon. The sales rep noticed my frown and said "Don't worry, these CBs are made in North America".
So Carrier (and others) could label their units this way and many customers would not notice or care.

I don't recall the "new" brand name. It may have been FPE trying to rebrand themselves after a lot of bad/deserved PR.

They definitely were not the FPE Stab-Loc that I had installed many of for former bosses.

I never did buy any or see the name again IIRC.

Yes, I think it was now that you mentioned.
Do you know who the parent company was and are they still around..........not that I want any.

@hot rod But income dictates that people shop for "everyday low prices" So how does this cycle end?

It won't end until things hit rock bottom, then watch the fireworks. The most successful government ever, was in Genoa Italy. They limited political terms of office to, get this; six months. At one time Crotia did the same with great success.
Until the USA limits terms of office to One Term only, then their career in political life is over, this existing scam will persist.
It is unacceptable to do nothing in one's entire life except flapping their gums as a politician.
This is my opinion as an 80 yr+ old Canadian in Ottawa.

We're all caught up in having our "stuff". We will give up our lives, to keep our "stuff". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS_yRy5EYQk

This is an issue I'm having right now.

Fine, Carrier is moving production to Mexico. Who are you going to use instead? Someone who's stuff is primarily made in China?

Where is Goodman actually made? They claim USA, but is that just the metal frame? Who makes their compressors, condensers, capacitors?

It seems almost impossible to actually know where the bulk of the parts are actually manufactured and it really does matter to me.

Fred said:

American Standard is a re-badged Trane. I'm not sure where Trane components come from but I would guess the same places as the American Standard.
@ChrisJ Goodman, at least in this part of the country, has the reputation for being the least reliable, lowest quality conventional product line (both furnaces and A/C units) on the market. Look up some consumer reviews. Maybe they will get better now that they have been acquired by Diaken but my guess is Diakin was looking for a low(er) cost way to get into the low end market. Hopefully they will still improve the Goodman product line.

I've heard this about every brand out there, depending on who you ask.

Same thing with minisplits. One guy hates Fujitsu and loves Diaken, another loves them but hates Diaken.

I've been told, every manufacturer has cheap stuff, and good stuff. Stick with the good stuff and do a quality install and you'll be good to go. Buy the cheap stuff and have a bad install and you'll suffer.

Whether or not that's accurate I have no way of knowing. I can only make assumptions based on my observations of what everyone is saying. No actual first hand experience and even if I had, my personal experience with one or two products isn't enough to make a valid conclusion on.

I'm looking at Goodman, not set on it yet. Not set on anything really and may change a few times over the next few months.

Fred,
When you had your Carrier units installed, did they flow nitrogen while brazing the lines? Did they do multiple nitrogen purges when vacuuming? Did they use medical grade nitrogen?

Oh, my.

MilanD said:

And just like that, the thread died...

The thread had been dead since August before RI's comment.

That said, you NEVER want to use medical grade nitrogen for HVAC. Moisture and O2 content is allowed to be way too high.

With all respect to you Dan @Dan Holohan, huge respect, it's a bit more complicated than 'we rebuilt Germany'.

We did provide funds, supplies, goods... sure, no denying that. It wasn't out of pure love either, you know - we needed it too to get our economy going after the war effort and employ all those GIs that came home. I think of it as credit extended... and also the realignment of global powers by the US as it was emerging as a Superpower to bipolarize against the Soviet Union and to replace the UK as the empire... Heck, FDR campaigned his 3rd term on 'no Americans fighting foreign wars' platform and there was a strong 'no foreign wars' sense in the population in 1939-41, prior to Perl Harbor. (See the latest 'Untold History of the US' by Oliver Stone - super informative!). Kind of like the time we are entering again... Interesting, no?

But I digress... Marshal Plan, sure, but they rebuilt the country with their own hands. Germans did. We didn't have our GIs there building factories and rebuilding the cities, or Mexicans, or the Chinese... It was Germans. We also needed them to pay back the war reparations and needed them to be able to do it. And needed to have a place to park our troops. Then, they, Germans, decided it's important to have an equitable society, you know, the philosophy set by Bismark a century before that, and follow it to the letter. The slogan in Germany after the war was: "Vir sind das Volk" = We are the people. Strong national sense, honesty, and knowing right from wrong. Kind of, dare I say it, socialist. My grandmother visited her friend in Munich, the early 50s, and had forgotten her purse, money, passport and all, in the phone booth. 3 hours later, when she realized and went back for it, it was still there. No one took it.

We had this kind of culture here too after the war... wasn't called that, but you could leave your home unlocked, bike without it being chained to something, to live a decent life, buy a home, pay your doctor, dentist or hospital bill, have state hospitals and mentally ill taken care of, send your kids to school or college, and do all of it without going into debt, while earning a pension and social security on which you could live in old age, and have medicare help you out. And then it eroded, trickle-down bs that started with Regan. What was it 'welfare queens" that were the problem, but behind the scenes, deregulate, break-up unions, make trade deals unfavorable to the American worker, etc - all mentioned in this thread already. Smoke and mirrors.

All the while, Germans continue to put interest of the nation ahead of oligarchy. It's hard, but it's still done: strong labor force, unions, schools (from elementary to trade and universities)... Conscientious and educated population. Esp. after allowing for Hitler's rise, talk about coming to terms with ones' past and making sure every generation never forgets it - they learn about their own predecessors' shortcomings in school. Until and including today's generations. Maybe we need to come to terms about our relationship with the Native Americans, or Slavery... and teach it to each generation. It may be the national catharsis we now need. Again, I digress.

Sure, Germans have problems too, no system is perfect. All I'm saying is that they have, even today, a much stronger feel for "community", or "communal benefit", than we have here. And also empathy. What is it now, over a million refugees in Germany by now? Each gets approx 800 euro per month in state help, plus extra for children, help with housing, school supplies, health care... And we have how many homeless, and are up in arms about 20,000 refugees coming here...

We may talk about having it: empathy, feel for the common good... but we don't. It's all Hollywood sets and shiny malls - all just a facade, laurels of our past that has been hollowed-out. We say we do, we cherish the "community"; but are also talking about individualism and pulling oneself by his own boot straps as in 'I built this'.... ok. Luck had nothing to do it, or standing on shoulders of generations that came before us? Hmm... You are either more for the community or you are more for your self - can't be both. And we know where we are today.

And that's the truth... we've been sold the 'dream' while the rug is being pulled up from under our feet by the ruling class on both sides of the isle, coating it with paint called 'globalization'. Someone earlier mentioned the boiling frog effect. That's exactly what's going on. IT jobs are going next (my neighbor across the street is already talking about it), then engineering, and then perhaps even healthcare... to an extent, if it is allowed (perhaps not as it's making money hand-over-fist here).

I'm a big believer in franchising - get the system that works and replicate it. Also, I believe in learning from your and other people's mistakes and successes, and then applying it to your situation. When learning something new, we can recognize 3 stages: copy, assimilate, innovate. Gentleman and ladies, the wheel has been invented. You take it and apply it to fit your society. Chinese call it 'Communism with Chinese Characteristics' (and are laughing all the way to the bank). There is nothing 'fair play' in how big businesses conduct themselves today, if they are in the process destroying the very fabric of our society, while painting it with 'global economy' paint.

I'll leave it at that

Back to the subject at hand: PBS News Hour did a nice piece on this tonight http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/analyzing-long-term-value-trumps-carrier-agreement/

"It's good to be old and childless"

I find myself thinking the same thing...I wonder if my parents occasionally felt the same way about the first part. I know my brothers and I made them wish about the second!

DanHolohan said:

I'm happy to be old but grandchildren are the crowns of old men.

Yes, but, given this country's and the world's trajectories, think of what they'll have to go through. If our species survives much longer. Some see the glass as half full; others perceive it as half empty. I ask: "What glass?"

Note that I did suggest moving this thread to "The Politics of Heating."

Sal Santamaura said:

DanHolohan said:

I'm happy to be old but grandchildren are the crowns of old men.

Yes, but, given this country's and the world's trajectories, think of what they'll have to go through. If our species survives much longer. Some see the glass as half full; others perceive it as half empty. I ask: "What glass?"

Note that I did suggest moving this thread to "The Politics of Heating."

The world's trajectories aren't necessarily bad.
For some reason, most people seem to insist that things are continuously getting worse. I'm going to blame the media, but in general people do seem to like to complain.

The average age of death in the 1800s was 38. Life was far from easy and yet, it was easier then than it was in the 1700s.

There have always been dishonest and lazy people. It's nothing new or recent.

If you want to improve things, and feel you're overall an honest and beneficial person to the world then not reproducing while others continue to do so is not the correct response to the problem. Have children and teach them well. Teach them to help others and to never stop learning. Teach them to question everything they see or hear and teach them to always have an open mind. Teach them to always give their best.

Teach them to improve their country, and their world.

hot rod said:

SWEI said:

Back to the subject at hand: PBS News Hour did a nice piece on this tonight http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/analyzing-long-term-value-trumps-carrier-agreement/

Interesting numbers about how many companies are looking to move offshore, did they say 1600?

And how many un-filled manufacturing positions are currently open. If all the manufacturing jobs were to come back, sounds like it may be a challenge to fill those positions.
Another "dirty job" dilemma. They would be looking for the same employee that we and the automotive sector are trying to find?

The speaker claimed it cost Carrier 30 bucks per hour for employee, in Mexico 24 bucks per day!! Big gap there.

Very true.
But aren't we as Americans supposed to be against sweat shops?

I do not understand why we are even allowed to do business with these areas (Mexico, China etc). I thought we as a country were better than that. I know many on this forum would buy from other places, IF given the choice. 98% of the time, we have no choice anymore.


We have minimum wage here, a certain quality of working conditions, pollution laws etc all of which are very good. However, we apparently don't care if it takes place somewhere else. That's wrong.

The carpenter's union had a rule if I remember correctly. If a non-union guy worked on a union job he was to be paid union rate. This should be our law regarding sending work overseas. Go ahead, have it made there but you need to pay them a living wage. If a factory in China does not meet the work requirements in America you're not allowed to use it.

I don't know.
Let's talk hydronics.

"Another "dirty job" dilemma".

Not a dilemma. A prosperous job market, that competes for the very best employees. Every product and every employee, no matter which industry benefits from that. We've been "confused" for 40 years, as to, how to fix it. It's time to stop the BS and get it done. It's time to stop apologizing for being American.