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Carrier moves jobs to Mexico

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Comments

  • DJD775
    DJD775 Member Posts: 249

    Here's management giving the word to the employees: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3ttxGMQOrY

    Good example of a "corporate sociopath". Too many of them out there!
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    It was good to see Trump bring this up in last nights debate. He is right that if we taxed it coming back into the country these companies would start having second thoughts about moving south.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 1,215
    While it is difficult to simply stop buying any products made by company's with this type of management, there is at least one thing you can do. Instead of all of us that are installing contractors continuing to eat the cost of defective or low quality products, we need to begin billing the companies for our time to clean up their screw ups. I have made this my policy on large items ( such as defective boilers), and now that we are starting to track items more carefully, I will expand it on smaller items...such as the large number of new low water cut off failures I've been seeing. Respectable companies, such as Slant Fin, step up to the plate. Other companies, such as Dunkirk, blow off their responsibility. Guess who's products I haven't bought since I discovered this was thier policy? I have also purchased nearly no products from any of ECR's other companies. One of the problems with the current state of affairs in the HVAC industry is that a company can produce a defective product, a product that clearly has not been tested, and use the market as the testing ground and not pay anything for the costs incurred. We are letting them do that, so let's start changing how we do things.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Chris said:

    if we taxed it coming back into the country these companies would start having second thoughts about moving south.

    If we tried to tax it coming back into the country, the affected corporation would sue -- and the case would be heard in a NAFTA Tribunal, not in a US Court.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024

    While it is difficult to simply stop buying any products made by company's with this type of management, there is at least one thing you can do. Instead of all of us that are installing contractors continuing to eat the cost of defective or low quality products, we need to begin billing the companies for our time to clean up their screw ups. I have made this my policy on large items ( such as defective boilers), and now that we are starting to track items more carefully, I will expand it on smaller items...such as the large number of new low water cut off failures I've been seeing. Respectable companies, such as Slant Fin, step up to the plate. Other companies, such as Dunkirk, blow off their responsibility. Guess who's products I haven't bought since I discovered this was thier policy? I have also purchased nearly no products from any of ECR's other companies. One of the problems with the current state of affairs in the HVAC industry is that a company can produce a defective product, a product that clearly has not been tested, and use the market as the testing ground and not pay anything for the costs incurred. We are letting them do that, so let's start changing how we do things.

    Just be sure it was a product defect. 85% of our returns are from improper handing, installation, and in wetted products..by far fluid quality related failures.

    There is a difference from an honest mistake, and a related failure and a manufacturer choosing to use lower cost or quality materials, or lower quality labor, ignoring quality control procedures, etc. If this is driven by shareholders profits or CEO bonus programs, that a big problem. As you noted, speak up with your purchasing power.

    You will notice that quality manufacturers are adding longer and better warranties. Homeowners are always able to buy extended warranties that cover beyond the manufacturers and also reasonable labor cost. I've done that on my last two vehicle purchases, and it has penciled out.

    Labor reimbursements are not so easy to manage. A boiler replacement could involve a days worth of labor, a zone valve typically 1 hour or less. Then someone has to determine the cause of the failure, some are obvious by observation, other take some analysis.

    Many manufacturers will provide additional parts or product in lieu of cash, for a labor reimbursement, is that an acceptable option in your view.

    I've been on both sides of this issue and understand what you are up against.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722
    Paul48 said:

    @Canucker

    Those folks from Gates were union? Not that it matters, but that was the M.O. for that time period....move and lose the union. If they are publically traded, they are probably close to moving offshore, by now. When they closed the last place I worked for and split the work between China and Mexico, the year before was their most profitable ever. Strictly from a business point of view....if you have the means to do it, and don't, you're a fool.

    Yes, they were a union shop. I don't know if they're publicly traded, could be, I never looked into it. My own line of work is heavily influenced by global trade, as we are under pressure from lower cost manufacturing in other countries(Mexico, India, China, specifically) We're under no illusions that if they could do what we do, to the quality level we can, the work would be over there. I'm not sure how I should feel about that because it's been a reality for all of my working life. I used to think that because the genie was out of the bottle(free trade) the best thing that could happen would be to get the rest of the world up to our standards, so there wouldn't be the incentive to move to cheap manufacturing areas. The longer I see it, the more I agree with @Paul48 , their standards of living aren't rising as much as ours are going down.
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    I'm sorry, but please forgive me.......what does UTC own these days? Ya need a scorecard, don't ya? I know they'll never let vital military contracts go overseas.
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 1,215
    hot rod said:

    While it is difficult to simply stop buying any products made by company's with this type of management, there is at least one thing you can do. Instead of all of us that are installing contractors continuing to eat the cost of defective or low quality products, we need to begin billing the companies for our time to clean up their screw ups. I have made this my policy on large items ( such as defective boilers), and now that we are starting to track items more carefully, I will expand it on smaller items...such as the large number of new low water cut off failures I've been seeing. Respectable companies, such as Slant Fin, step up to the plate. Other companies, such as Dunkirk, blow off their responsibility. Guess who's products I haven't bought since I discovered this was thier policy? I have also purchased nearly no products from any of ECR's other companies. One of the problems with the current state of affairs in the HVAC industry is that a company can produce a defective product, a product that clearly has not been tested, and use the market as the testing ground and not pay anything for the costs incurred. We are letting them do that, so let's start changing how we do things.

    Just be sure it was a product defect. 85% of our returns are from improper handing, installation, and in wetted products..by far fluid quality related failures.

    There is a difference from an honest mistake, and a related failure and a manufacturer choosing to use lower cost or quality materials, or lower quality labor, ignoring quality control procedures, etc. If this is driven by shareholders profits or CEO bonus programs, that a big problem. As you noted, speak up with your purchasing power.

    You will notice that quality manufacturers are adding longer and better warranties. Homeowners are always able to buy extended warranties that cover beyond the manufacturers and also reasonable labor cost. I've done that on my last two vehicle purchases, and it has penciled out.

    Labor reimbursements are not so easy to manage. A boiler replacement could involve a days worth of labor, a zone valve typically 1 hour or less. Then someone has to determine the cause of the failure, some are obvious by observation, other take some analysis.

    Many manufacturers will provide additional parts or product in lieu of cash, for a labor reimbursement, is that an acceptable option in your view.

    I've been on both sides of this issue and understand what you are up against.
    I agree, Hot Rod, that for a quality company such as yours, that 85% of the "defective parts" are due to improper installation, handling etc. Which moves the problem even further to why does the industry have so many poorly skilled workers or the employees are not given enough time to do the job properly.....it's believed everyone is looking for lowest price/lowest labor cost right here in the U.S. However, Calleffi, is far from a bottom feeder company, so I would expect and receive much better from them than other international companies ( with what little hot water work we do now). But other international companies don't have your kind of reputation. Try finding a simple high quality Fan control center....it a case of a lesser of two evils.
    I have accepted product in lieu of cash, however, when that product is also low quality, the ongoing issue of reliability continues.
    It would be wonderful if the big, quality players in the industry ( Caleffi, Peerless, Slantfin, Grundfos, Wilo, Hydrolevel, etc.) would simply cut off the wholesalers that have reputations of supplying the bottom feeder contractors or contractors that have reputation of refusing to follow good practices (just looking at the number of non-defect "defective returns" would provide insight as to who they are). However, they would probably lose all their market share to the lower quality companies. The quality manufacturers and reps are also up against it. However, I wouldn't be a bit surprised that, despite losing market share, overall profits would rise by not having to deal with "defects". That's how I try to run my business.....do it once and do it right.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,571
    edited February 2016
    I think you have a jaded opinion of ceo's with company jets. Anyone who runs a multi billion dollar company that employs thousands of US citizens and a few Mexicans (chrysler comes to mind) shouldnt be flying coach.

    Yes, it stiinks that we gave up our manufacturing base. The takeaway is this: get your kids 16+ years of education, twelve years is limiting. Maybe they will create something that will employ the less educated in this country.

    I have been involved in manufacturing for the last 24 years and I wouldnt want my children standing on a manufacturing line.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    I worked in manufacturing from the 60's till the turn of the century. I started out pouring epoxy into little molds to build networks that mounted onto printed circuit cards, a decade later I was a senior technician and an engineer seven years later and then I went into management. i did all this with a high school education and a willingness to work hard.

    All that went to China, i was lucky because I had some good skills I could use to repair industrial machinery so I made it to retirement in 2009. It's gotten much worse since then.

    The problem is we are in the midst of a revolution like the industrial revolution, everything is changing and people don't know what to do. We are told we need to continuously educate ourselves for this new economy but we see lots of people in serious debt that still can't find jobs.

    The 2008 downturn was a gut punch to most of the middle class, jobs left and they didn't come back, people are forced to work 2 or 3 jobs to get the same pay and often with no benefits.

    Automation is taking a lot of the manufacturing jobs that don't go overseas, people don't know what they have to do to find stable work. They see no future for themselves or their kids. How can you hope to pay for a college education when you can't afford to pay the mortgage and buy health insurance.

    i don't know what the answer is but people are scared. Maybe this is why we have a buffoon leading the polls in the presidential race.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,513
    I toured CNN Atlanta yesterday. All the cameras and TelePrompTers are robots. They were moving around the set. No more cameramen.
    Retired and loving it.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    When I worked at the PO repairing the mail sorters they installed robots that read and sorted the tubs of mail and then loaded them onto wheeled postcons. That got rid of a bunch of jobs all over the country.

    What used to take hundreds and hundreds of people (I'm talking about a processing plant that was half a million sq ft) can now be done with 1/4 the work force. Most of that was done by attrition but those jobs will never come back.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,571
    There was a time where a high school diploma could get you what you achieved.

    Now, many manufacturers wont let you take a supervisor position without at least an associates.

    Times have changed. Kids need to adapt to the changes.

    Ther is a bufoon leading tthe presidential polls. And behind him are several more
  • MikeSpeed6030
    MikeSpeed6030 Member Posts: 69
    When a U.S. company moves its operations to Mexico or other foreign country, their executives should be required to move too. Applicable Carrier executives and directors should be required to permanently move to and live in Mexico. Ditto, when companies move to Ireland, etc., to avoid paying taxes in the U.S. Not just get an apartment in Mexico and actually live in the U.S. - nosiree, pack up your family and get the he!! out.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542

    When a U.S. company moves its operations to Mexico or other foreign country, their executives should be required to move too. Applicable Carrier executives and directors should be required to permanently move to and live in Mexico. Ditto, when companies move to Ireland, etc., to avoid paying taxes in the U.S. Not just get an apartment in Mexico and actually live in the U.S. - nosiree, pack up your family and get the he!! out.

    The issue with that is that most major companies, who do relocate some executives, give those execs an annual living stipend that is huge, on top of their salaries/benifits, typically more than any employee could earn in two or three years!
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    SlamDunk said:

    There was a time where a high school diploma could get you what you achieved.

    Now, many manufacturers wont let you take a supervisor position without at least an associates.

    Times have changed. Kids need to adapt to the changes.

    Ther is a bufoon leading tthe presidential polls. And behind him are several more

    Many say a college degree now is what a high school degree was, when it comes to a job ap. I never went to college and made it so far, so good. But every job my son, nieces and nephews apply for, blue collar or white, that is one of the first questions. It doesn't even seem to matter if the degree matches the job, just having the paper if important.

    By whatever means, we need to better educate our population, many of our skilled jobs are going overseas also, to US educated workers! Several of my neighbors have gone offshore for medical procedures!
    Been to a college graduation lately and see who is getting the diplomas and highest accolades?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • MikeSpeed6030
    MikeSpeed6030 Member Posts: 69
    No, no, I'm talking about the big shots - the ones who ultimately decide to move a major operation to Mexico, etc. The ones that are already knocking down big bucks, over $500K+. I want them to live in Mexico. Pay them whatever the stockholders will tolerate, but LIVE IN MEXICO, unless the operation is moved back to the U.S, and don't come back until then.

    I'm not talking about some middle manager who goes from the U.S. partially as a cultural excursion, and bounces back within a few years. I'm talking about the big fish that actually decide to move their major operations to other countries. That could include board directors, if it was their doing.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    BobC said:

    I worked in manufacturing from the 60's till the turn of the century. I started out pouring epoxy into little molds to build networks that mounted onto printed circuit cards, a decade later I was a senior technician and an engineer seven years later and then I went into management. i did all this with a high school education and a willingness to work hard.

    All that went to China, i was lucky because I had some good skills I could use to repair industrial machinery so I made it to retirement in 2009. It's gotten much worse since then.

    The problem is we are in the midst of a revolution like the industrial revolution, everything is changing and people don't know what to do. We are told we need to continuously educate ourselves for this new economy but we see lots of people in serious debt that still can't find jobs.

    The 2008 downturn was a gut punch to most of the middle class, jobs left and they didn't come back, people are forced to work 2 or 3 jobs to get the same pay and often with no benefits.

    Automation is taking a lot of the manufacturing jobs that don't go overseas, people don't know what they have to do to find stable work. They see no future for themselves or their kids. How can you hope to pay for a college education when you can't afford to pay the mortgage and buy health insurance.

    i don't know what the answer is but people are scared. Maybe this is why we have a buffoon leading the polls in the presidential race.

    Bob


    Automation is taking a lot of the manufacturing jobs that don't go overseas, people don't know what they have to do to find stable work. They see no future for themselves or their kids. How can you hope to pay for a college education when you can't afford to pay the mortgage and buy health insurance.

    I always though automation threatened jobs also. Turns out we have just as many employees, as before we automated, but triple the output and quality control is un-matched with proper robot training and management.

    The former milling machine and lathe operators have been retrained with CNC skills, moved to a higher wage, and now less mistakes and waste. Now we have a whole department that builds and programs, repairs and upgrades robots.

    It would be near impossible to be competitive in large scale, precision manufacturing without automation, and computer skills.

    With some of our products, the first time a human hand touches it is when you, the installer opens it. This has a lot to do with the low return rate. Some of the testing and X ray scans the robots do is not even possible by hand.

    A tour of our factory and a peak at some of the robots at work.

    https://youtu.be/N4rYRHlHzW8
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    We all know that will never happen. That would be considered a "Hardship" for them and their families. Talk about double standards.
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,571
    edited February 2016
    How about just taxing the crap out the product made by a US company that is importing it to the US?Laws support this behavior and we elect thepeople who allow this to happen.

    It's an election year. Vote with your wallet and for your kids future.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    "The former milling machine and lathe operators have been retrained with CNC skills, moved to a higher wage, and now less mistakes and waste. Now we have a whole department that builds and programs, repairs and upgrades robots".

    The former "operators" that you are referring to, were toolmakers. They already earned some of the highest wages paid in industry. If anyone is left at a CNC machine, he/she is not being paid high wages. One person is writing the programs for all the machines, and they are paid well. Everyone else is loading blanks and removing finished product. Soon to be replaced by robots. These are the things you have to do, to compete with the competitions "third world" labor. Until recently, our plant in China has refused us sending them machines. They preferred assembling by hand. They have a couple folks over there that need jobs, ya know. :smile:
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    Paul48 said:

    "The former milling machine and lathe operators have been retrained with CNC skills, moved to a higher wage, and now less mistakes and waste. Now we have a whole department that builds and programs, repairs and upgrades robots".

    The former "operators" that you are referring to, were toolmakers. They already earned some of the highest wages paid in industry. If anyone is left at a CNC machine, he/she is not being paid high wages. One person is writing the programs for all the machines, and they are paid well. Everyone else is loading blanks and removing finished product. Soon to be replaced by robots. These are the things you have to do, to compete with the competitions "third world" labor. Until recently, our plant in China has refused us sending them machines. They preferred assembling by hand. They have a couple folks over there that need jobs, ya know. :smile:

    I'm not sure the official term in Italy, I have always call them machinist. Goes back to my industrial arts class days in the 70's.

    Now the 'machinist" runs a cell which is a group of machines taking a piece from a chunk of bar stock, for example to a finished product. That is a well paid, coveted position. They still manage the machines, troubleshoot and keep the tooling fresh. There is still a lot of metal working skill involved to operating CNC or robotics. I believe they still start the trade with machine shop skills, add the CNC or automation side.
    Just changing to low lead brass alloy proved they understood the art of metalworking to make the needed adjustments to the tooling, lubricants, etc.
    There is still a lot of pride in the metal working trades at least in Italy, it's very rare that an employee leaves the company.

    Yes there are still hand work stations too for small run projects, maybe wiring a control circuit, etc.

    There is a key metric in manufacturing, I forget the exact term, but it is the amount of product produced divided by the employees needed to accomplish that. As important is the low number of defective parts per the 300 plus million pieces that we turn out.

    One challenge going to the low wage manufacturers that I have heard is quality control. The first batch comes backing looking great, then the next has been value engineered. You just never know what is going to arrive. I support the companies that use PRC manufacturing have their own quality control folks in house.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    There's very little difference between a toolmaker and a machinist. As a machinist, I've always made parts and repaired and built machines. It's splitting hairs I guess.
  • Jack
    Jack Member Posts: 1,047
    I recall when Pat Buchanan was running for president in what, '92, maybe '88, he was interviewing an old woman whose job in a textile mill, that she had had since she was a young woman, had just left S Carolina for south of the border. They talked of how terrible it was for her. I wondered what that old woman felt when as a young woman she took the job of my mother and aunts who worked in the high price New York State, MA, NH, RI, CT, MI, OH, etc. Many jobs fall to the equator. Go to Syracuse and look at Carrier Circle. Empty warehouses where there was once a juggernaut of a company. Carrier left them apparently on their way to Mexico. My Dad, back in the 60's worked for Bendix and they were one of the first to move their bicycle brake division to Mexico in about '67. They owned that business. Find a bike today that has a Bendix coaster brake on it. My point is that this has been a long cycle. At the end of WWII we were the only industrial nation left standing. With our help and their tremendous effort they caught up. It isn't over! It is never over. Education, effort, looking at tomorrow in a positive and constructive way are all that are going to protect ourselves and our families. This is Capitalism at its core. There were all kinds of problems back in the day. Today you hear candidates talking about the good old days like they once existed. They did not! The problems were just different, but they were real.
    CanuckerSolid_Fuel_Man
  • hvacfreak2
    hvacfreak2 Member Posts: 500
    edited February 2016
    Jack said:

    I recall when Pat Buchanan was running for president in what, '92, maybe '88, he was interviewing an old woman whose job in a textile mill, that she had had since she was a young woman, had just left S Carolina for south of the border. They talked of how terrible it was for her. I wondered what that old woman felt when as a young woman she took the job of my mother and aunts who worked in the high price New York State, MA, NH, RI, CT, MI, OH, etc. Many jobs fall to the equator. Go to Syracuse and look at Carrier Circle. Empty warehouses where there was once a juggernaut of a company. Carrier left them apparently on their way to Mexico. My Dad, back in the 60's worked for Bendix and they were one of the first to move their bicycle brake division to Mexico in about '67. They owned that business. Find a bike today that has a Bendix coaster brake on it. My point is that this has been a long cycle. At the end of WWII we were the only industrial nation left standing. With our help and their tremendous effort they caught up. It isn't over! It is never over. Education, effort, looking at tomorrow in a positive and constructive way are all that are going to protect ourselves and our families. This is Capitalism at its core. There were all kinds of problems back in the day. Today you hear candidates talking about the good old days like they once existed. They did not! The problems were just different, but they were real.

    Some good points in that , good post.

    However , when you look at all of the vacant strip malls and office buildings they do tell a story of better times. And when those businesses were operating ( for decades ) I'm sure that all of them were not huge profit ventures. Investors ( the wealthy ) are not content with running a decent business that breaks even anymore , it's all about performance full speed ahead or shut it down. Kraft foods did something similar right before Christmas this year just to maximize profit.

    Automation , outsourcing , using sub standard materials to make cast iron for boilers . Anything to make for a larger bottom line number in " the man's " portfolio. It has always been about this , but the " people " factor is no longer a consideration.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=edlOaFuULbo

    hvacfreak

    Mechanical Enthusiast

    Burnham MST 396 , 60 oz gauge , Tigerloop , Firomatic Check Valve , Mcdonnell Miller 67 lwco , Danfoss RA2k TRV's

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  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,571
    edited February 2016
    my 401k is highly dependent on share value, profitable corporations and dividends.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    Paul48 said:

    There's very little difference between a toolmaker and a machinist. As a machinist, I've always made parts and repaired and built machines. It's splitting hairs I guess.

    It's a trade I wish I had more experience with. I like seeing a piece of metal transformed into a precision part. I still run my dads old 9" Atlas lathe, circa 1945, but the lathe and me are both getting far out of tolerance.

    The nano and micro technology intrigues me, gears the size of a pin head!
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Tough row to hoe there. We'd have to get rid of NAFTA of course. That would still leave thirteen other FTA's, plus the TPP about to fall on us.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    @Jack

    This certainly is a form of capitalism. The point is, this form is not sustainable. Unless you believe the tiger will stay asleep forever. I'm not trying to preach gloom and doom. I'm merely pointing out that there has to be changes.
    Although businesses moving state to state is hard on families, the jobs remained in the US. I find no solace in the fact that a company moved to Mexico, then went out of business. I only lament the fact that the jobs left the US, period.
    I beg to differ with you regarding the "good old days". They most certainly did exist. I feel sorry for you, if you were not able to enjoy that time period. It's all a matter of perspective, and let's hope our children and grandchildren can have fond memories of their "good old days".
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722
    What's frustrating to me about this discussion....it seems most of us agree it takes a government regulation to save us from our own stupidity. It's actually sad it comes down to that. People don't realize they are shooting themselves in the foot, mainly because in this case the bullet travels very slow. By the time it hits you in the foot, it's too late to do anything about it and we are left cleaning up a mess as best as we can. Our wealth is becoming based on thin air and it just can't be sustained like that. NAFTA and many other "fair trade" agreements are far from "fair". How is it fair with Mexico unless Mexico sets a minimum wage? I should also add the Mexico move doesn't always work out so well. First the company loses their Domestic Manufacturing Deduction (DMD) in part or completely. Also shipping costs go up in some cases pretty dramatically. What was shipping from Indy to say MD and what will it cost now? And customs can become an issue. I know we have had issues going the other way at times. If your shipment is held up and you delay delivery to suppliers that looks bad on you...sometimes to the point of losing business. Again I default to these moves as being short sighted. Working for an American manufacturer that is wildly successful it's hard to wrap my brain around making these moves....deep down I know why I just can't agree with it in principal.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
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  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722
    We are NOT union....if it was I most likely wouldn't be here.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
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    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
    I'm glad "we" got bought by a large defense company, was always an odd fit with UTC ;) That said, the sale was supposed to be good for everyone, but I don't see the benefit to UTC and now this... OTIS isn't doing any better from what I understand. Stock price has tanked, which is a bummer since our retirement benefits were tied to that. The current price is what is was 6-7 years ago when I first started.
  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
    Paul48 said:

    I'm sorry, but please forgive me.......what does UTC own these days? Ya need a scorecard, don't ya? I know they'll never let vital military contracts go overseas.

    Well, they sold Sikorsky helicopters ;) to Lockheed Martin. They still have Pratt, but they all outsource/manufacture things overseas to a degree...
  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512

    Paul48 said:

    I'm sorry, but please forgive me.......what does UTC own these days? Ya need a scorecard, don't ya? I know they'll never let vital military contracts go overseas.

    Well, they sold Sikorsky helicopters ;) to Lockheed Martin. They still have Pratt, but they all outsource/manufacture things overseas to a degree...
    The thing about jet engines is that you really cannot outsource the parts. One error or oversight in the material and you kill people. They do have large overseas conglomerates that are their partners and provide assembled modules. These conglomerates have their own supply issues in their own respective countries, but they also must tightly control the supply chain.

    Semantics? I know for a fact that the companies listed above outsource and manufacture some of the components, subassemblies, etc.. overseas. Sometimes, with the scale of the component, shipping, legal, import/export... I'm surprised its a worthwhile venture.

    However, my understanding is that "outsourcing" of particular parts is a way of "doing business" with another country (not always).

    For example: You sign a contract with Irish government to sell XX number of widgets. They agree as long as you use YY percentage of Irish manufactured goods in your product.
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,571
    you know, all US air carriers send their aircraft to Mexico, Honduras, India and China for heavy Maintenance and inspections Performed by non english speaking poorly educated, non aviation trained people who cannot read maintenance manuals, overseen by one licensed aircraft mechanic who signs off on everything. Flying has never been safer.

    Outsourcing is huge in every facet of aviation. Virtually all ground operations (maintenance, fueling,deicing) are handled by lowest bid contractors who pay minimum wage.

    I have done a lot of work in Mexico and other third world countries for US companies. Foreigners are every bit as intelligent and capable as we are. Reduced taxes is a bigger draw than reduced payrolls.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited February 2016
    KC said: What's frustrating to me about this discussion....it seems most of us agree it takes a government regulation to save us from our own stupidity. It's actually sad it comes down to that.
    What's sad to me is that it is the stupidity of our government that created the regulations that created what is happening. I don't have a problem with Free Trade as long as we get as much or more, in return, than we had when we strarted. As far as I'm concerned, if a country gets our jobs, we don't send those jobs until a deal is struck to ensure they "trade" at least an equal amount from us. It's fine with me if that means they buy their product design, Engineering and other skilled services from us for their own manufacturing operations/products but it needs to benefit both countries or it isn't "Fair Trade". You can't expect good legislation from government leaders who don't have a clue how to run a business, let alone a country.

    I just heard this morning that a tractor manufacturer was going to start manufacturing within the next year in Cuba. I think they said John Deere, but I missed the first part of the story as I was passing through the room and only stopped when i heard the "Manufacturing in Cuba".
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    @Hatterasguy

    "Changes" as you insist upon may never happen.

    There is ongoing pressures to eliminate all jobs that require limited skill levels. They are replaced by much cheaper overseas labor or by robots. Your choice.

    There is also ongoing pressure to eliminate "middle managers" who are recognized as contributing little to the product.

    What you have left is a requirement for highly skilled jobs that pay very well and a requirement for service jobs that pay very poorly and you have the 20% of all workers who are paid well by a government entity of some sort.

    Is this sustainable?

    Time will tell.

    Watch the real estate values. If they stagnate or decline, you have your answer.


    I'd like to address your thoughts. First off...I am talking about the conditions that require change to keep and return jobs to the US. Manufacturers that are left in the US are not trying to eliminate jobs that require limited skill levels. They now employ temporary laborers that are paid poorly. Their ranks include the uneducated, but they also include the skilled, desperate for work.
    I don't see middle managers being eliminated. You can't eliminate management, when you're managing morons.
    The highly skilled employees left, are paid ever declining wages, because the companies are very well aware that there is no jobs. They call you in and tell you what they are taking from you. In the "good old days", you'd tell 'em to stick it, and have a better paying job by the end of the day. Now, you go home and figure out what else you can give up.

    Is that sustainable?

    There are many folks that will never feel the affects of this problem. Most of the folks here will never feel the affects. With my skill-set I will never let my family suffer, but I can see the struggles of those around me. I have not been blinded by my own prosperity. I don't look at a homeless family, living in a van and think.....they deserve that. I certainly would never call their complaints...."whining".
  • quack24
    quack24 Member Posts: 74
    well thats one way to stop the illegal immigrant problem just bring the jobs to them great work america
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    when I mentioned whining I was referring to people that have a skill, jobs are available, buy they prefer to stay on the goverment payroll as long as possible.
    In our industry there are plenty of job openings, sure it may require relocating but plumbers and HVAC techs jobs are out there.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream