Carrier moves jobs to Mexico

Paul48

Which part Chris?

ChrisJ

Paul48 said:

Which part Chris?

The part I put in bold.

"It's time to stop the BS and get it done. It's time to stop apologizing for being American"

I don't understand what this means?

Paul48

It's time to sit down with American manufacturers and talk to them about the policies that have killed their industry. They all know them. Then begin undoing the damages done. Beyond that, every American knows the trade agreements have killed this country. The politician are so "confused"....the only answer they can come up with, is to enter into another trade agreement, with another 3rd world country. That's the BS part.

Maybe a better way to say it is........It's time for Americans to be proud of their country again.

DanHolohan

I never stopped being proud of my country.

ChrisJ

DanHolohan said:

I never stopped being proud of my country.

It's pretty hard when you watch the black friday videos of people trampling each other to save a few dollars on a tv they don't need.

I haven't given up hope yet though!

Fred

Everyone needs to remember, the glass may be half empty or it may be half full, but it's a vessel, it's refillable!

DanHolohan

I don't watch, Chris.

Paul48

We've raised a generation, now, that have no pride in their country. It's been that long. The sentiment you see at sporting events is shared by many young people. They don't "get it", and we haven't given them anything to get. Like any building project, once you stop, it will begin to decline. I'm saying we need to start building again.

Paul48

@Dan Holohan

It's not about us anymore. It's about our legacy. We, as caretakers have done a pretty piss-poor job.

Brewbeer

Paul48 said:

It's time to sit down with American manufacturers and talk to them about the policies that have killed their industry.

Gotta disagree with the quoted. US manufacturing corporations' policies haven't "killed" their industry at all, as a mater of fact they have resulted in record profits:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-a6E2FMqls6A/T3Ct1EIGkhI/AAAAAAAARGA/dIcQy0KeydU/s1600/mfgprofits.jpg

Their policies, including extracting tax concessions from municipal and state governments, have been very good for profits and have resulted in handsome bonuses and dividends to their management teams and stockholders.

MilanD

Well, I stand corrected then @Sal Santamaura - the military contracts too will then go away... which is again in line with my points above (long rant, I know... can't help it): unless some kind of fair-play and shift towards societal good is implemented, we will slide back to times of Wyatt Earp. (Heck, maybe that's good too -- I always wanted to walk around in cowboy boots while slinging a Colt 45 pistol and chewing on a toothpick...)

Someone mentioned hard work: I have not seen more hard working people than I saw here in the US, or nicer, or more sincere, kind, and helpful. This wall is a testament to it. At the same time, and very obvious by this discussion, there is a disconnect between what the big corporations are doing and what the people feel should be done. Political class manipulates in between the two, and not to benefit the people.

We need to ask ourselves if the societal priority is an astronomical profit of any given company on the account of eroding living standards of the general population who is left behind WITHOUT even some organized re-training for different fields still available here but having hard time being filled? (Someone mentioned it above - jobs are open but not being able to be filled by manufacturers looking for qualified labor.)

And what @ChrisJ said: demand working conditions and pay be equitable overseas too. $24/day vs. $30/h is a no brainer for corporations if the government is allowing it to be done, while the goods sold back are not passing on the savings to the consumer. It's exploitation and extortion... I mean, how is your life qualitatively going to change if you, as a CEO are making 10 vs. 100 million? Both numbers are ridiculous to begin with, esp. if you are asking workers to work for 50k-60k here, or 8k in Mexico... and have everyone pay their own soaring health care costs, child care, and more in taxes for schools, roads, public services... where is the corporate citizen?

And this brings us on how this is compounding on the problem: the behavior like this also shifts the profit off-shore, while local tax burden (roads, schools, public services) shifts to the local population who 1. have fewer choices for a good income to pay it in the first place and can't pay it at the same level, and 2. have to pay it or watch those services erode, and thus, erode the standard of the community.

So what's the use of massive corporate profit if the majority of people left behind live without any perspective for a better working career and life? Have you guys seen the soaring use of opioids and drugs in the mid-west? It's a real serious issue in Ohio.

One last thought, and that'll be it from me on this -- it just dawned on me: There is no more shame in public life. Shame too is taught and we are not teaching it, nor expecting for anyone to have any. I remember my mother and my grandmother telling me to do well in school and to listen to my teachers, to work hard and study, and not to do something to bring SHAME to our family name. Yeah... how many people today even mention the word or teach their kids to be ashamed if they do something wrong, or point to something someone does and call them on it? That word is such a powerful one.

Ok. I'm done. Don't tag me y'all... unless you want more of my insights

hot_rod

Paul48 said:

It's time to sit down with American manufacturers and talk to them about the policies that have killed their industry. They all know them. Then begin undoing the damages done. Beyond that, every American knows the trade agreements have killed this country. The politician are so "confused"....the only answer they can come up with, is to enter into another trade agreement, with another 3rd world country. That's the BS part.

Maybe a better way to say it is........It's time for Americans to be proud of their country again.

If we currently have 600,000 open manufacturing positions, and many or all those off shoring companies like Apple, AO Smith Ford, Chrysler, Carrier etc, etc, move back, who will work in those factory positions? Anyone in your family willing to assemble i-phones for a living?

I see Uponor was running ads with a very nice package to get people to work for them. Looks like about 30 openings on their website currently, many in the back end.

Add to that, we were promised by the president elect that 11 million, @50,000 a day, will be deported in the first year as soon as he takes office. Wonder how many of those work factory and ag jobs. Who replaces that workforce?

In areas of California there is a waiting list to get a new home built due to shortage of tradespeople. Been to a construction jobsite lately and seen who the work force is compromised of?

Would we end up with 6 million open factory positions, if all the corporations move back. What would a company need to pay to get a factory worker on board and retain them? Isn't this exactly why companies off shore, even if they could find workers the cost is prohibitive.

Too many young folks aim to be reality show "stars", instant success, no factory job option for them.

Show me anyplace in the US where a blue collar work force is being developed.

Speaking of reality show stars .

BobC

From the mid 60's to the mid 90's I worked for a company that built power supplies - military and commercial. I started as a bench technician and worked my way up to engineering and management. As time went on we saw fewer and fewer military jobs, they got smart and designed the systems to use commercial supplies as much as possible and that hit the custom power supply business hard.

That place closed and then I spent 6 years at a small consulting company but that work went to China so I spent the remainder of my working life repairing mail sorting machines for the post office.

You do what you have to. I did read that Massachusetts is looking at increasing the number of vocational schools. I know my vocational schooling kept me employed from the time I graduated HS to when I retired at 62 (back problems). There will always be jobs for people willing o work with their hands.

Bob

Paul48

We have created a welfare state. The millions of vacant factory positions you are talking about, are now minimum wage jobs. We took 5% unemployment and turned it into 25%. Check that out. That's just wonderful.........let's sing the praises of bringing the Mexican economy here. Yeah......all those college kids, just want to be on a reality show. They moved offshore, because our politicians gave them a license to kill. Can you not see that you enjoy what you enjoy, because at one time, folks got paid $25/hr to sweep the floor in Detroit? Do you live in your own little world and not see how everything is related?

Sal Santamaura

MilanD said:

...So what's the use of massive corporate profit if the majority of people left behind live without any perspective for a better working career and life?...

The use of that massive corporate profit is to benefit the oligarchs who reap it. Multinationals serve their own interests and consider themselves above countries, which they think exist to serve them, not 'the people.'

Let's stay somewhat on the topic of heating. Exxon Mobil's in the oil business. Just yesterday, it was announced that, in addition to those already being considered for Secretary of State (Romney, Giuliani and Petraeus), two new names were added: Rex Tillerson, current CEO of Exxon Mobil and Lee Raymond, the Exxon Mobil CEO who preceded him. This book

https://www.amazon.com/Private-Empire-ExxonMobil-American-Power/dp/0143123548

covers how the company uses its power and quotes Raymond as saying "We see governments come and go." In other words, anyone who thinks their children and grandchildren have a chance of avoiding the coming massive negative effects from anthropogenic climate change is living in fantasy. The swamp isn't being drained; it's being stocked with the largest, most predatory alligators in existence.

Currently, in Brasil, those possessing great wealth don't even get close to interacting with 'the people.' Instead, they helicopter from the top of one skyscraper to another, never having to see riffraff. This seems like a good predictor of where we're headed.

Anyone who thinks yesterday's Carrier partial taxpayer buyoff (with limited success and no tariff 'consequences') is a 'win' ought watch from 18:21 through 18:54 in this video from last January 10:

http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/is-donald-trump-the-p-t-barnum-of-2016-chuck-asked-him-599134787947

I disagree slightly with Barnum. At one per minute, it would have taken 119 years to birth 62,626,216 people who voted for the President Elect. In my opinion, the actual rate must be closer to one per 20-30 seconds.

Paul48

@BobC

I agree, and some of us are more fortunate than others. Having a varied skill set will keep you employed. That said, we are all different, with our own stories. What we were able to do thirty years ago, has nothing to do with todays reality. Sadly, the "millions of manufacturing jobs", are mostly minimum wage jobs through temp agencies, with no benefits(like Mexico). We have to be realistic. Every societal woe.......we own. Our generation owns. It's an ugly truth that no one wants to admit to. I want the American Dream for my grandkids, and their kids.

BobC

A few blocks from where I live Boston Gear and Pneumatic Scale had plants that employed hundreds of machinists up until the late '60's. Kinney Vacuum went away back in the 80's. Most of the work went down to the southern states where the labor was cheaper but then the jobs were rubbed out by automation. These days what few machinists are left pretty much work for small job shops and get paid on piece work.

While I was fixing machinery at the post office they were installing robots on a lot of the machines to replace labor, that is very commonplace now. Those jobs are gone FOREVER, the only jobs are for the people that fix the robots.

This is the paramount problem of our time, what do we do with people who have no job because it's been taken away by automation and or been sent offshore? You might be able to slow some of the offshoring but you can't do a damn thing about automation. Once the job is gone it's pretty much gone forever.

If you think erecting tariffs is the answer read some history about the great depression and see how well that worked back then

Bob

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

If you want to improve things, and feel you're overall an honest and beneficial person to the world then not reproducing while others continue to do so is not the correct response to the problem. Have children and teach them well. Teach them to help others and to never stop learning. Teach them to question everything they see or hear and teach them to always have an open mind. Teach them to always give their best.

Teach them to improve their country, and their world.

Only problem there is, once their peers get hold of them, everything you tried to teach them goes out the window. This is the #1 complaint I've heard from parents over the years.

Paul48

Much has been said about the lack of skilled labor, and the lack of interest in trade schools. You will not interest young people in the trades, unless you turn the job market around. The skilled trades, in the factories are being abused, right along side the temps. It's going to take a long time, but how long will it take if nothing is done?

DanHolohan

Paul, please tell me about yourself. What do you do? What is your story? I want to understand. Thanks.

Paul48

I'm a machinist Dan. Technically, a machine repair machinist. I repair the machines and make the parts, if needed. Been doing that for the better part of 40 years. From the time when you could work 3 full time, good paying jobs, if you chose. My father was a plumber, and my grandfather was a plumber. I'm Irish, Swedish and American Indian. Thick-headed, say what's on my mind and defend it. A Frenchman would call me an American, and I'd say thank you. I have, pretty much, the same story as millions of other Americans. I've been through 2 plant closings. One moving south, pre-NAFTA, and one moving off-shore, post-NAFTA. My skills offered me the opportunity to move into another job immediately, on both occasions. That doesn't mean I could turn a blind eye to the turmoil that those events presented to people I had worked with for years. You tend to find yourself saying......what the h-ll happened? You spend a lot of time trying to figure that out. You have to be there to appreciate it.

What is it you're trying to understand?

DanHolohan

You. Thanks. It helps to understand your point of reference. Thanks for sharing.

Steve Minnich

I put out a "we need help" notice on social media the other day and the response was awesome. All young, enthusiastic guys who want to learn a trade or just recently got out of trade school. There are still those who WANT to be blue collar, get your hands dirty types. There's a lot to be said for seeing tangible evidence of one's hard day's work.

BobC

@Stephen Minnich That's good to hear. About a month ago had an electrician in to wire an outside light, thats the kind of thing I always did myself but it was in an awkward place and with my back I knew it would not go well. He showed up with a helper and got a switch installed and the outside light hung in jig time.

While they were cleaning up I told his helper (looked like he was just out of HS) that he would always have a job if he could work with his hands because they can't export that kind of job. I'm sure that just drives the movers and shakers to no end to think there is something they can't squeeze blood out of.

Bob

SlamDunk

I'm sitting here reading these posts and half watching "It's a Wonderful Life"'. The world was, and still is, full of Potters and Baileys!

SlamDunk

George Bailey: Just a minute... just a minute. Now, hold on, Mr. Potter. You're right when you say my father was no businessman. I know that. Why he ever started this cheap, penny-ante Building and Loan, I'll never know. But neither you nor anyone else can say anything against his character, because his whole life was... why, in the 25 years since he and his brother, Uncle Billy, started this thing, he never once thought of himself. Isn't that right, Uncle Billy? He didn't save enough money to send Harry away to college, let alone me. But he did help a few people get out of your slums, Mr. Potter, and what's wrong with that? Why... here, you're all businessmen here. Doesn't it make them better citizens? Doesn't it make them better customers? You... you said... what'd you say a minute ago? They had to wait and save their money before they even ought to think of a decent home. Wait? Wait for what? Until their children grow up and leave them? Until they're so old and broken down that they... Do you know how long it takes a working man to save $5,000? Just remember this, Mr. Potter, that this rabble you're talking about... they do most of the working and paying and living and dying in this community. Well, is it too much to have them work and pay and live and die in a couple of decent rooms and a bath? Anyway, my father didn't think so. People were human beings to him. But to you, a warped, frustrated old man, they're cattle. Well in my book, my father died a much richer man than you'll ever be!

BobC

That is one of the greatest movies ever made and it embodies everything good about mankind.

On the other side of the coin are those who will do anything to gain an advantage over the other guy.

Edmond Burke said it best: "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing" (there is some doubt about who actually coined the phrase). We live in perilous times.

Bob

hot_rod

Sal Santamaura said:

MilanD said:

...So what's the use of massive corporate profit if the majority of people left behind live without any perspective for a better working career and life?...

The use of that massive corporate profit is to benefit the oligarchs who reap it. Multinationals serve their own interests and consider themselves above countries, which they think exist to serve them, not 'the people.'

Let's stay somewhat on the topic of heating. Exxon Mobil's in the oil business. Just yesterday, it was announced that, in addition to those already being considered for Secretary of State (Romney, Giuliani and Petraeus), two new names were added: Rex Tillerson, current CEO of Exxon Mobil and Lee Raymond, the Exxon Mobil CEO who preceded him. This book

https://www.amazon.com/Private-Empire-ExxonMobil-American-Power/dp/0143123548

covers how the company uses its power and quotes Raymond as saying "We see governments come and go." In other words, anyone who thinks their children and grandchildren have a chance of avoiding the coming massive negative effects from anthropogenic climate change is living in fantasy. The swamp isn't being drained; it's being stocked with the largest, most predatory alligators in existence.

Currently, in Brasil, those possessing great wealth don't even get close to interacting with 'the people.' Instead, they helicopter from the top of one skyscraper to another, never having to see riffraff. This seems like a good predictor of where we're headed.

Anyone who thinks yesterday's Carrier partial taxpayer buyoff (with limited success and no tariff 'consequences') is a 'win' ought watch from 18:21 through 18:54 in this video from last January 10:

http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/is-donald-trump-the-p-t-barnum-of-2016-chuck-asked-him-599134787947

I disagree slightly with Barnum. At one per minute, it would have taken 119 years to birth 62,626,216 people who voted for the President Elect. In my opinion, the actual rate must be closer to one per 20-30 seconds.

"Steal a little, and they put you in jail. Steal a lot and they make you king" Bob Dylan

Where's the tax return Mr. president elect?
Will Mitt bring his millions stashed off shore back to the US?

Paul48

This is what we got. Like it, or don't. We have a wealthy president. Have we ever had anything but, wealthy presidents? We all know that the wealthy hide their money all over the world. None of this is new. I use to have great respect for Warren Buffet, and still would, had he chosen neither candidate. I watched that segment of the video, and you're doing the same thing as mass media does. You need to watch it again, and listen to his explanation for choosing P.T. Barnum.

Harvey Ramer

I have one thing to share on this. The wealthy and political class gain most of their power from a divided public that picks sides instead of individuals. If we want to make a difference we have to reach common ground and speak with one voice. We all want the same thing at the end of the day. And we have far more in common than separates us.

We come together in Hydronic’s. There are few arguments and disagreements, but we are all headed in the same direction. And we make a difference.

Why could the same not be true in our effort to make the country a better place for everyone.

Fred

@Harvey Ramer said: Why could the same not be true in our effort to make the country a better place for everyone.
I think a lot of it is, in part because so many people have no desire to educate themselves ,and consequently look at what is being said by the politicians, during their campaigning as if it were fact. If they hear something that they think will benefit them personally, then that's who they get behind, even though they probably know it is just rhetoric, they won't take the time to validate or discredit that rhetoric. They are naive enough to want to believe it. It's like that old saying "When you do the same things over and over, why would you expect a different result?" Some people don't get that.
I think the difference in Hydronics and any other field of business is that there is a focus on a specific set of issues, an experienced base of people with a specific goal and vision and a knowledge base that has been learned and shared with others willing to learn. There are those who are willing to test the limits of that knowledge but who are willing to say "Hey that didn't work and here's why" Or "Guess what, my Experiment worked and here's what I learned, for the benefit of a common good. Typically fact based and repeatable. Not the case when you bring a huge population together who want what they want at any cost and who are gullible enough to not expect a demonstrated and proven track record on a broad range of issues with well defined core problem definitions, and an action plan that should lead to plausible solutions, fact based and repeatable. There is no effort to clearly define common issues rather than symptoms, and no sense of common goals. It's all subjective and oriented to what the masses want to hear, not what they need to know. People accept promises that typically have no foundation based on a plan to arrive at a desired state and, in short order, they become disenchanted and frustrated and embark on a different set of problems (symptoms) and promises. Change takes time and people, for the most part, want instant gratification. We can't set a new course and continue to change direction and priorites every six months or every two years or every four years. Set a goal, set priorities and stay the course until that set of problems are resolved, regardless of which party takes the lead or how many personnel changes you have during that journey. Keep the population well informed on the progress and on any failures and how those will be corrected. We are a nation with specific problems that can be prioritized, based on known resources and we should expect deliverables based on a viable action PLAN. Our problems don't (or shouldn't) come and go based on an election. Maybe that's asking for too much. JMHO

DanHolohan

Paul, Harry Truman had to get a job when he left office.

Gordy

Harvey Ramer said:

I have one thing to share on this. The wealthy and political class gain most of their power from a divided public that picks sides instead of individuals. If we want to make a difference we have to reach common ground and speak with one voice. We all want the same thing at the end of the day. And we have far more in common than separates us.



We come together in Hydronic’s. There are few arguments and disagreements, but we are all headed in the same direction. And we make a difference.



Why could the same not be true in our effort to make the country a better place for everyone.

Wouldn't it be nice if we as a country could just "hug our kids", and nurture them not to the point of crippling them.

Sal Santamaura

Paul48 said:

...listen to his explanation...

Sorry, Paul, at the direction of his staff and supporters I am not permitted to take anything the President Elect says literally. Therefore, there's no reason to listen to his 'explanation' or anything else he utters/Tweets.

SWEI

DanHolohan said:

Paul, Harry Truman had to get a job when he left office.

ISTR Carter also having a bit of an uphill job when he got back to Georgia.

BobC

I never met Harry but I did meet someone who worked for him. I was running a dog and pony show for the 50th anniversary of the infantry school at Ft Benning at the time. As I was trying to repair a balky amplifier, I looked up and noticed some one standing over me with 5 stars on his sleeve - it was Omar Bradly.

The room was full of Colonels and Generals and he had wandered to the back of the room to talk to an E5 who was trying to fix something. It was like talking to an uncle, there was not a presumptuous bone in his body - he even held a flashlight for me. I understood at that moment why he was called the soldiers general.

My boss (full bird colonel) came over and asked me what did you say to him, I just smiled and said just a little chat.

Harry and Omar were the same kind of down to earth leaders who didn't care who you were, all they cared about was that you could do the job.

We desperately need leaders like them.

Bob

Paul48

@BobC
You let the colonel off the hook easy. You could have had a lot of fun with that one.