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Carrier moves jobs to Mexico

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Comments

  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,513
    Gosh.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    What they do to compensate for a lack of skilled help, is throw manpower at jobs. When you are paying workers a dollar a day, with no benefits, you can have a massive workforce doing rework and QC. I'll give you an actual example.......My wife worked in a dept., assembling pen cartridges, and the company had developed this ink that was giving them a lot of headaches. It was doing what they called "stringing". It was leaving hair-like strings of ink all over the cartridges. The operators and machinists were all told that they had no such problems in Mexico. A while later a group of machinists went down to Mexico to work on some machines. They discovered 30 women sitting at tables, and wiping strings off the cartridges. They get about $2 an hour, no benefits.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    Here's the deal.......Those workers a Carrier will be out of work for a while. When their unemployment starts getting close to running out, they'll wind up taking a job for half what they use to make, because that's all that's available. Every time a company pulls out, it gives the remaining manufacturers a reason to take more from their employees. THE RACE TO THE BOTTOM!
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    This must be the giant sucking sound Ross Perot warned us about!

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    Yep........And they all laughed. I have to say...he miscalculated a bit. He thought they would come up, and we would go down, and meet in the middle. They are not coming up. We are just going down.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722
    On the positive side with all those people working in Mexico they will stop crossing the border since Mexico will become the better place to live. Wait no that's not the positive side.... So here is a basic question to all the companies moving labor. How do you expect to sell any product when you are taking away all the money from your customers? That's sounds like a brilliant plan to go bankrupt. What happens when even the Mexican labor is too high? What is the next step down? These plans are so short sighted it isn't funny. These "brilliant" business men are so good they can't figure out how to make the company profitable. Perhaps instead of closing plants they should find a CEO who knows what they are doing? Sorry I get really really PO'd when I see this.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    Rich_49
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    We just haven't gotten low enough yet.

    When I got out of HS in '66 the paper had 10-20 pages of classified jobs (on the weekends it was 50-60 pages), it was everything from dishwashers to engineers and and plant managers. I never washed dishes (I did work for a car wash) but I did the other two and they were all in the Globe classifieds.

    Companies were fighting over the available talent and there was a lot of talent in the 60's through the 80's. I grew up in the era when we went to work and sent men to the moon! That started to go south when Nixon let the Jap's in here to sell TV's in exchange for their support for his Vietnam adventures - it was all downhill from there.

    In the late 80's we got to know the MBA's (make better assholes) and that is where things really went south - they would sell their own mothers for a dollar AND TELL YOU WHAT A WONDERFUL JOB THEY DID!

    The middle class is gone now, you either wash dishes for $10 an hour or you become a $5 million a year member of the kleptocracy - not as much room between the two as there used to be. The cost of everything goes up and the wages stay the same - IF YOUR LUCKY!

    I'm retired now so I'm out of the rat race but I'll tell you my HS education was better than any bachelor's degree and better than most masters degrees that they want you to have now because they didn't just pound facts into us they taught us how to solve problems. Tell your kids to learn a trade, it's the only way to be secuse these days.

    Is it no wonder that we have the Donald and Bernie going for the top job?

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,513
    Good passion, well stated, Bob. Thanks.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    @KC_Jones

    They don't seem to care about tomorrow. The businessmen, the politicians, and the wealthy are all stuffing the cash in their pockets today. They are destroying this country. There doesn't seem to be any regard for what they are leaving for their children either. It was not the unions that have lead us to where we are today. It is the politicians, doing the bidding of mega-wealthy families. We, as a country, have given our jobs away, and have gone from being the largest creditor nation in the world, to the largest debtor.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,513
    Paul, can we still prove and sell quality to earn a fair profit? If yes, then how?
    Retired and loving it.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722

    Paul, can we still prove and sell quality to earn a fair profit? If yes, then how?

    The company I work for (Evapco) does it and does it well. We are employee owned as I said before and honestly I think that is a huge part in it. The employees get 20% of the profits from the company. The company makes money we make money. We do whatever it takes to keep those profits up. Efficiency, innovation, customer service. We bend over backwards to make it happen. When we have customer visits they always comment on all the smiling faces at our company in our plant. When was the last time you saw a guy on an assembly line laughing and smiling the whole time he was working? Our people do. The publicly traded companies make you feel like a piece of meat (I have first hand experience with that) and you don't share in the prosperity of the company. If the company does really well why should the CEO be the only one that takes advantage? It's about culture....and many companies destroyed that culture and can't figure out why they won't make money. A company is a family and if it is treated as such everyone benefits. I know you asked Paul, but I felt like commenting.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    MilanD
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,513
    Thanks, KC. Beautifully said.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    @DanHolohan

    As @KC_Jones pointed to , unless we stop the bleeding, there will be no profits to be had by anyone. I don't have the answers, but I believe that changes are coming. I think they are the kind of changes that will no longer allow children to go to bed hungry, in this country, and others. Call me a dreamer.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,023
    Sure it is possible to run a profitable small company, many do. I work for a company that went from 4 to 20 employees in 12 years manufacturing and selling high quality hydronic components. In a country with a very small amount of hydronics!
    We compete with companies that are mostly manufacturing in China and Mexico, and spend some of their energy trying to keep our products off the shelves.

    Some suggest North Africa may be the next, maybe final area to find dirt cheap labor?

    I know of many profitable plumbing and HVAC companies with happy employees making good coin and nice benefits. It may not be as easy as "back in the day" but still possible for the driven.

    Some see the glass half full, others half empty. Maybe they need some cheese with that whine.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    I'll say nothing....because most of what I would say would have to be edited anyway.
    Rich_49
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,513
    I don't see any of these comments as whining. I think it's just good people caring about other good people who are losing their jobs and may not have the ability or the strength to go it alone and start over at this point in life. It's not a new story, but it sure is a sad one.
    Retired and loving it.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,513
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722

    I don't see any of these comments as whining. I think it's just good people caring about other good people who are losing their jobs and may not have the ability or the strength to go it alone and start over at this point in life. It's not a new story, but it sure is a sad one.

    Dan I was discussing this with a close friend last night and I sent him this text.
    "Makes me sad. We (as a society) need to care more about our neighbors. I really believe it's a contributing factor".
    I think empathy is being lost and that's how these companies can do this and still sell product in this country. Carrier will go on, people will forget and then in another year or 2 or 3 another company will do this. Right or wrong, I am telling everyone I come across to not buy from them. If we started a nationwide boycott of Carrier products now, I bet their attitude would change very quickly. It's the only way we can help these people, from my point of view. They keep the jobs here and we as a society then promote their products. We can stop this we have the power.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,513
    edited February 2016
    I'm also thinking about what those doomed workers will do to the product between now and their last day at the factory.

    There's a current recall of a previous recall: http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2016/Carrier-Recalls-to-Repair-Packaged-Terminal-Air-Conditioners-Heat-Pumps-Previously-Recalled-Units/
    Retired and loving it.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,023

    I don't see any of these comments as whining. I think it's just good people caring about other good people who are losing their jobs and may not have the ability or the strength to go it alone and start over at this point in life. It's not a new story, but it sure is a sad one.

    Maybe whine isn't the best word. Still we need to stand up and be heard. Send letters to the manufacturers and politicians, spread the word online. We have seen that work before here at HH.

    We also saw this play out with the RE tax credit extension recently, the solar groups banded together, hired lobbyist via SEIA, and made their point to the lawmakers, every week on capital hill, and we got the extension.
    The GEO folks got lazy, assumed they would ride along... didn't happen for them this time.
    There are lobbyist and groups that band together, get the message out to get good things done, lobbying it not limited to big oil and pharmaceuticals.

    Oddly, doesn't one of the large HVAC manufacturer require that their installers are NATE certified or they cannot be a dealer anymore. That is an ongoing cost to the HVAC contractor and helps assure their installers are qualified, and the product is properly installed.

    Yet those manufacturers are willing to take their plants to lower, possibly less skilled labor locations. They want it both ways. It's all about the bean counters and shareholders maximizing their returns, not so much about the product or made in the USA quality.

    The dirty jobs industry needs to do the same, we are worth what attorneys and programers earn, and more.
    Maybe if and when we have another power plant melt down, or coal mine collapse the plumbers and pipe fitters, well drillers and rescue workers should strike and suggest we send in the lawmakers and CEOs to clean up the mess.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    SWEI
  • RayWohlfarth
    RayWohlfarth Member Posts: 1,459
    On a lighter note, the management guy on the video that is telling the workers that he still expects quality work even though they will be losing their jobs is a great salesperson and should be hired. I have a feeling he will also be looking for work soon.
    Ray Wohlfarth
    Boiler Lessons
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,588
    Yeah,
    People usually work good when they feel like they've been stabbed in the back.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    I would rather walk in to work and find out I don't have a job any more then have to work at a place that is telling me we found some one who is replacing for less then half of what we pay you for. No need to string people along.
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 529
    KC_Jones said:

    ...So here is a basic question to all the companies moving labor. How do you expect to sell any product when you are taking away all the money from your customers?...

    Without intending to (I suspect), you've pointed to the underlying problem with almost every rant/complaint in this thread.

    "Companies" really refers to the people controlling virtually all very large corporate entities. And, those controlling them, as well as enabling/facilitating the corporations' actions, are oligarchs. Their loyalties lie not with any country, but rather to the global oligarchy, i.e themselves. Once one recognizes these facts, it's easy to answer your question. The Carrier, etc. oligarchs expect to sell product because their customers aren't Americans, just as their company isn't "American." They don't care where in the world the products are made and they don't care where those products are sold. As long as the products get sold somewhere, at a profit, everything is fine. And the whole world is their market.

    In my opinion, reasonable US governance, which previously protected the best interests of this country's middle class, began its transition to oligarchy starting in the early 1980s. I see no possibility that rapid reversal of that trend, which has progressed quite a long way toward completion, can take place in the near future regardless of electoral outcomes this year. There are only two possible courses back to rationality I can imagine. In the first, public understanding of what's been done to it slowly but surely works to change our government's makeup so that the oligarchy is broken down. That would likely take just as long -- three and a half decades -- as it took to slide this far downhill. Given that public education has been intentionally degraded, resulting in a populace that doesn't really understand how it's been victimized, even such a long timetable will be challenging.

    The second road to restoration might be quicker, but much messier. If things get bad enough and the public won't be patient, there could be an actual revolution. I doubt this will happen. Modern electronic communication affords oligarchs extraordinarily effective propaganda channels, which might keep the masses under control.

    While not in the heating industry, I've been through a meeting just like the one those Carrier folks experienced. My former employer, a large US aircraft manufacturer, the name of which starts with "B," couldn't move the defense project I was working on to Mexico, but it could relocate it to a low-wage, "right to work for less" state with fewer employee and environmental regulations. All the same lingo ("transition," "maintain quality," etc.) was used. Fortunately, I was ready to retire and the lemons turned into lemonade since, given my rather lengthy service with the company, a decent severance package resulted. However, many of my younger coworkers, engineers like me, found themselves out of jobs. A small percentage were offered the "opportunity" to apply for their old jobs at the new location, which would have provided much lower salaries, had few benefits and included no relocation package. I'm absolutely convinced that, as soon as the oligarchs' government counterparts find a way to legalize it, there will be another "transition" from the low-wage state where these projects currently exist to Mexico or another third-world country.

    All of which leads to the bumper sticker I liked best after reading all that came into view while commuting 100 miles per day round trip for 33 years:

    "I feel much better since I gave up hope."
    Rich_49MilanD
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    There has to be a revolution, of sorts. The American worker has no rights any longer. The establishment has no qualms about destroying peoples families, as witnessed by this posting. It can't be done on a business by business level, or a trade by trade level. The old methods of lobbying is a joke. It's cancer, not a wart. Suppose, for a minute, that every working stiff in America didn't go to work on Monday, and that continued every Monday for a month. If, after a month, the trade agreements had not been re-written, and tariffs re-applied, it would then go to Monday and Tuesday, and so on.
    Rich_49
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 529

    ...If things get bad enough and the public won't be patient, there could be an actual revolution. I doubt this will happen. Modern electronic communication affords oligarchs extraordinarily effective propaganda channels, which might keep the masses under control...

    Paul48 said:

    ...Suppose, for a minute, that every working stiff in America didn't go to work on Monday, and that continued every Monday for a month. If, after a month, the trade agreements had not been re-written, and tariffs re-applied, it would then go to Monday and Tuesday, and so on.

    I don't think things have gotten bad enough yet for "every working stiff in America" that you could actually make such an action happen. The collective "frog" is in water that has slowly been heated for decades. Most of its body parts don't realize how close to 212F things have gotten.

    MilanD
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited February 2016
    @hot rod said: "Some see the glass half full, others half empty. Maybe they need some cheese with that whine. " The beauty of a glass is it is refillable. There will come a time when this country will be the best place to produce quality product, once again. As those countries see rapid inflation, increased labor costs, increased import/export tarriffs, higher shipping cost, lower quality products that increases warranty and service/retooling expenses, higher coordination costs, loss of some of the tax benefits that some countries offer today, US companies will bring some of these jobs back. It may not be what we had post war but it will be a lot better. Most of us, in this country insist that our children be college educated so that they don't have to work in the factories. We have some responsibility in what is happening. We need to make lemonade out of some of these lemons. As a nation, we need to leverage our skills/intellect and focus on something more than "bottom feeding jobs" Development/Design of new and creative Technologies, ownership of "intellectual Property" and licensing agreements can be the "Cream on the top" that pays our people more than they could ever make on the assembly line. Technical Services for those who don't want college but do want a trade skill. No one will ever be able to take the "feet off of the street" when it comes to installations/repair work. Let's keep in mind the next wave is robotic assembly. We are already seeing that and those jobs that are being exported will fall to that technology eventually. That is an example of design and engineering that we want our kids to develop along with so many others. Let the poorer nations do the assembly unitl that happens and when it does, country of assembly will become less important. There is nothing wrong with developing manufacturing capacity in countries that consume those goods. There are ( maybe) some effeciencies in that model. Let us stay focused on understanding how we can come out on top AGAIN! It will take time but it will happen. Necessity IS the mother of invention. We have a need, lets do something about it.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    "I don't think things have gotten bad enough yet for "every working stiff in America" that you could actually make such an action happen. The collective "frog" is in water that has slowly been heated for decades. Most of its body parts don't realize how close to 212F things have gotten"

    I agree, and unfortunately, corporate America knows this. The population has been fractioned for years. Everyone has been fighting for their own piece of the pie. The pie's gone, and the bakery moved to Mexico. Getting everyone to understand "the greater good" would be very difficult, and that's where things could get ugly. I don't know of any other way to force change. It has to hurt their bottom lines, or there won't be any change.

    Rich_49
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    Paul48 said:

    "I don't think things have gotten bad enough yet for "every working stiff in America" that you could actually make such an action happen. The collective "frog" is in water that has slowly been heated for decades. Most of its body parts don't realize how close to 212F things have gotten"

    I agree, and unfortunately, corporate America knows this. The population has been fractioned for years. Everyone has been fighting for their own piece of the pie. The pie's gone, and the bakery moved to Mexico. Getting everyone to understand "the greater good" would be very difficult, and that's where things could get ugly. I don't know of any other way to force change. It has to hurt their bottom lines, or there won't be any change.

    No meaningful change is easy and there are no quick fixes. Have we gotten to the point where the pain out weighs complacency? Obviously not and hopefully we will wake up, as a nation, of people, and understand what is important and what we need to do to make things better for ourselves, our children and our neighbors. It is a collective effort, which compounds the problem even further. So many of us expect someone else to fix the problem. I had to ream one of my nephews out the other day when he said: "If my boss doesn't plan to ensure my career advances, then I will know he's not interested in my best interest."
    I was horrified! this is a college educated young man with 10 years of work experience, in his chosen field. I told him he is 100% responsible for his career development , no one else. Waiting for someone else to advance your cause will get you nothing. How does your boss know or even care about your career aspirations? He's got his job and his own carrer to worry about. Figure out where you want to go and then sit down with your boss and ask if he can help you get there!
    jwh723
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 529

    ...The Carrier, etc. oligarchs expect to sell product because their customers aren't Americans, just as their company isn't "American." They don't care where in the world the products are made and they don't care where those products are sold. As long as the products get sold somewhere, at a profit, everything is fine. And the whole world is their market...

    Paul48 said:

    ...I don't know of any other way to force change. It has to hurt their bottom lines, or there won't be any change.

    The thing is, it won't hurt their bottom line other than in the very short term. They'll lay off all those US working stiffs, move production somewhere else and sell their products somewhere else.

    Whether by gradual political action or rapid revolution, the only way this situation will change is by means of complete governmental overhaul that eliminates oligarchy. I don't see it happening any time soon.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
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    Canucker
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    edited February 2016
    It only has to hurt their bottom lines, long enough to correct the trickle-down economy that has been forced on us. Do you think they would give up a healthy, growing US market? Or move production back, because in say, six months, or a year, tariffs are to be put back in place. Now, there would be no benefit to producing your product abroad. Tariffs worked for 200 years. They protected our jobs, and manufacturers here.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,023

    On a lighter note, the management guy on the video that is telling the workers that he still expects quality work even though they will be losing their jobs is a great salesperson and should be hired. I have a feeling he will also be looking for work soon.

    I caught that too. It's like then politicians out there telling the folks in the room to sit down and shut up, this is how it's going to be.

    Real compassion, from that gent, even the tone of his voice was harsh. It will be interesting to see how many hits that video will get.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722

    Here's management giving the word to the employees: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3ttxGMQOrY

    I showed this video to people I work with that we hired from Gates Rubber facility in Brantford about 15 yrs ago. It was a profitable, low waste, high quality manufacturing facility, ranked in the top 3 according to the company's ranking. They all said that speech is almost word for word what they heard before the facility closed down to move to Tennessee. Begs the question of how much profit is enough profit?
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,570
    all I know is, I wouldnt buy a Carrier because unhappy workers may do unhappy work.

  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 529
    Canucker said:

    ...Begs the question of how much profit is enough profit?

    You haven't picked up on this yet. The answer is simple: there's no such thing as "enough" for the oligarchs.

    Canucker
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    @Canucker

    Those folks from Gates were union? Not that it matters, but that was the M.O. for that time period....move and lose the union. If they are publically traded, they are probably close to moving offshore, by now. When they closed the last place I worked for and split the work between China and Mexico, the year before was their most profitable ever. Strictly from a business point of view....if you have the means to do it, and don't, you're a fool.

    Pretend for a minute that our government is a business. Now, all businesses review decisions they've made, and correct errors that have been made. In the 23 years since NAFTA was signed into law, no one has seen it as an error. Every president, including this one, has added more free trade agreements. Why? They all know it is screwing this country. Saying so, got Obama elected his first term.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    I'm glad I don't have children. The way things are going there wouldn't be anything left for them.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
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  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    I worry for my grandkids. The American Dream has been taken away from them. This economy has always grown, from the bottom up. If you give a hundred thousand dollars to a rich man,, he'll call his stock broker. If you give the same to a working man, he'll buy a deli, and hire a couple people. Let his wife run it, and keep working 60-70 hours a week.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    @Paul48 That is exactly right, growth comes from small businesses. Large companies are too busy ensconcing the CEO in his new corporate jet.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge