Carrier moves jobs to Mexico

Paul48

Not too long ago...for the first time ever.....more people entered Mexico from the US, than entered the US from Mexico.

hot_rod

Fred said:

KC said: What's frustrating to me about this discussion....it seems most of us agree it takes a government regulation to save us from our own stupidity. It's actually sad it comes down to that.
What's sad to me is that it is the stupidity of our government that created the regulations that created what is happening. I don't have a problem with Free Trade as long as we get as much or more, in return, than we had when we strarted. As far as I'm concerned, if a country gets our jobs, we don't send those jobs until a deal is struck to ensure they "trade" at least an equal amount from us. It's fine with me if that means they buy their product design, Engineering and other skilled services from us for their own manufacturing operations/products but it needs to benefit both countries or it isn't "Fair Trade". You can't expect good legislation from government leaders who don't have a clue how to run a business, let alone a country.

I just heard this morning that a tractor manufacturer was going to start manufacturing within the next year in Cuba. I think they said John Deere, but I missed the first part of the story as I was passing through the room and only stopped when i heard the "Manufacturing in Cuba".

But the elected officials don't run the government, special interest groups and shadow money set the agenda.

Fred

@hot rod said: But the elected officials don't run the government, special interest groups and shadow money set the agenda. Unfortunately, I'd say you are right but from what I've seen over the past several years, nobody is running the country. As a matter of fact, nobody is running anything FOR the country, just for their own PERSONAL benefit.

SlamDunk

Low or No healthcare costs, Much lower tax rates, lower payroll, less, environmental expenses, no unions, no fair labor standards act, no minimum wage laws, .

You want America to compete with that? sounds like a race to the bottom to me.

Poor people around the world will do what we no longer will for an income. And, often times, at the end of the day, they owe their souls to the company store. Just like we did in "the good ol' days".

We need to find bigger and better things that have not been thought of yet. If we wait on government to fix this, we lose.

Paul48

@SlamDunk

If a bully took your lunch, would you stop the bully, or find another source of food?

Fred

SlamDunk said:

Low or No healthcare costs, Much lower tax rates, lower payroll, less, environmental expenses, no unions, no fair labor standards act, no minimum wage laws, .

You want America to compete with that? sounds like a race to the bottom to me.

Poor people around the world will do what we no longer will for an income. And, often times, at the end of the day, they owe their souls to the company store. Just like we did in "the good ol' days".

We need to find bigger and better things that have not been thought of yet. If we wait on government to fix this, we lose.

I think some of this is a line of crap we've been fed, by government and Corporations to justify moving many of these jobs abroad. It's not those kinds of jobs that "we don't want to do" that are being exported. We have always done whatever we need to do to take care of our families. We have more low paying fast food jobs, in this country, than we've ever had and people fill those positions, they cook, clean, do lawncare, whatever to feed their families.
I agree with you, we do need to find bigger and better opportunities for ourselves. Unfortunately, those that do, become the very ones that want to move everything offshore. They forget where they came from or simply don't care anymore, once they make their fortune. I guess that's life, at least as we know it.

KC_Jones

There is nothing wrong with flipping burgers, digging ditches or shoving the same bolt into the same hole for 30 years. Everyone has their place and society needs to stop telling people there are "bad" jobs. If you are working and being productive it's a good job. This is the concept that has been lost. "The world needs ditch diggers too". I don't feel that is a derogatory statement it's simply a statement of fact and we shouldn't look down on people doing unskilled or low skilled work. Without that unskilled labor, the billionaire couldn't exist since they would have no one to make their widgets.

Paul48

We are talking , a key component of the "American Dream". Since the industrial revolution, it is what has brought immigrants to this country. The ability to work, earn a wage, and create life that is better than what you had previously. There has always been those that are not willing to put the work in, and obviously this doesn't pertain to them. This is about those that are willing to get dirty, and are being denied the chance to earn a living.

John Mills_5

The way I see it, the problem is US. John Q. Consumer wants the absolute lowest price he can get on whatever he's buying. And he (she) is what is causing production to move south or some other 3rd world country. Businesses have to make a good profit to satisfy shareholders so they have to do something to have the low price their potential buyers want. The homeowners beat us down, we beat the distributor down, they beat the factory down and 1400 jobs are lost.

Rheem, a Japanese owned company, moved almost all residential production to Mexico, closing 3 American factories and taking much production out of the 4th. Who cared. I doubt it hurt their marketshare in the least. Lennox has a nice factory in Mexico, more & more production has gone down there. Anybody notice? Only those of us who know what the factory number in the serial number mean. Nortek moved its production down there. Note the G in the 3rd digit of the serial # on your new units. Carrier has built coils south for 30 years. Lately a bunch of A/C units have come from there, models of Carrier, Bryant & ICP that most dealers probably didn't know about plus Payne units. Trane's beloved Climatuff recip compressor has been assembled in Mexico for 15 years.

I know the Carrier story hit Indy hard but I'm surprised how much on these forums and facebook. Not a new story in manufacturing. I didn't know it at the time but my 2010 Ford is Mexican. So much for buying American!

Paul48

when I mentioned whining I was referring to people that have a skill, jobs are available, buy they prefer to stay on the goverment payroll as long as possible.
In our industry there are plenty of job openings, sure it may require relocating but plumbers and HVAC techs jobs are out there
@hot rod

You mentioned whining because you don't seem to realize that the discussion is not about you, or the plumbing and heating trades, specifically. You believe that only tradespeople are skilled workers. You are right, in that there is no excuse for a tradesman to be unemployed, but that is not what is being discussed here. Although there may be some plumbers and HVAC techs among those losing their jobs at Carrier, they are among the minority. How about the skilled machine operators on the floor. How about the folks using the breaks to make the covers for the units? The discussion touches on something that is tearing at the way of life in America......and you respond by calling someone that might say it was wrong....a whiner? You need to call a surgeon......cuz your head is stuck where it doesn't belong.

Fred

Not John Deere moving to Cuba:
The Treasury Department last week notified partners Horace Clemmons and Saul Berenthal that they can legally build tractors and other heavy equipment in a special economic zone started by the Cuban government to attract foreign investment.

SlamDunk

Paul48 said:

@SlamDunk

If a bully took your lunch, would you stop the bully, or find another source of food?

Paul48 said:

@SlamDunk

If a bully took your lunch, would you stop the bully, or find another source of food?

really depends on how big the bully is. I might just spit a loogie into my lunch and hand it to him..

SlamDunk

I think some of this is a line of crap we've been fed, by government and Corporations to justify moving many of these jobs abroad. It's not those kinds of jobs that "we don't want to do" that are being exported. .
-----------------------
I dont know what it is like where you live, but where I live, contractors (and as a pharma plant mechanic, I work with lots of contractors) 99% of business owners are anglos and 95% of their employees are latino.

So, bashing corporations for moving factories to Mexico when the majority of contractors around me hire Mexicans because they will either work for less or have an excellent work ethic , is wrong.

When a maryland tomato farmer gets on television and says his crops are rotting because of some anti migrant worker law was in effect, and american workers only last a day in the fields, it is not a line of crap. you have to accept that there is work we wont do anymore.

Fred

OK, tempers or passions are starting to flare a little. There are many, many different perspectives on the issue of exporting jobs and even importing migrant workers (legal or otherwise). In any case, let's try, as best we can to be respectful of each others opinions. Because they differ from our doesn't make them wrong and it certainly doesn't make them right either. Everybody, with a brain and a backbone should have an opinion and a voice on this subject, and many other topics of public well being.
@SlamDunk, go back and read my posts. I didn't bash anyone but our government for not ensuring we get a fair return from Fair Trade Deals. That's only reasonable to expect. My first post dealt specifically with finding ways to develop our skill sets and prepare ourselves to lead in design, engineering and product development. Let those third world countries do the manufacturing. AND by the way, I don't believe those countries are taking our jobs. We are giving them those jobs! No one is holding a gun to the heads of any CEO or our Government. I'm retired and worked for a major Corporation for 41 years, in middle management for 20+ of those years. I have seen some of the decision making that goes into off-shoring. I've seen the good and the bad.
Yes there are jobs, like harvesting tomatoes, in the hot sun for a few cents a pound that some use migrant workers to do. We should keep in mind that those workers are human too. Those farmers may be using them like slave labor which becomes more an issue of ethics and moral values (IMHO). That is a seperate discussion, maybe for another day. But I will say, the farmer that made that statement needs to consider paying a fair wage for a fair day's work too. If he can't make a profit harvesting his crops through some form of automation or by paying a fair salary, he needs to consider getting out of that business and not banking on a desperate population to do that work. He apparrently would rather let his crops rot than get himself and his family and friends out in those fields
Having said that, I personally don't have any issue with immigrants who come here to work. If they have skills, They too buy products, homes, cars, have disposable incomes and that's all good. They come here for the American Dream. Those that come for seasonal harvesting of tomatoes or whatever, come out of desperation. Yes, Their dream is to survive one more day. People will do things out of desperation that they otherwise won't do and trust me, we will too if things get tough enough. If we truely only last a day in the fields, it most likely means we have other options that those immigrants don't have. Taking advantage of anyones circumstances, while it may be profitable, it's not ethical nor should it be what this country is about. Those farmers will be the first to go to their country churches and brag about how blessed they are. The dollar is King, so be it, for the time being.

EDIT: I might add, as a young man, I recall picking strawberries for 25cents a pound to get the things I needed. The 25 cents was only paid if the strawberries were "Picked correctly" leaving just enough stem on them. The pay was less if the quality pick wasn't there Working in the fields is not below me and I didn't think about not showing up to make that little money.

hot_rod

Paul48 said:

when I mentioned whining I was referring to people that have a skill, jobs are available, buy they prefer to stay on the goverment payroll as long as possible.
In our industry there are plenty of job openings, sure it may require relocating but plumbers and HVAC techs jobs are out there
@hot rod

You mentioned whining because you don't seem to realize that the discussion is not about you, or the plumbing and heating trades, specifically. You believe that only tradespeople are skilled workers. You are right, in that there is no excuse for a tradesman to be unemployed, but that is not what is being discussed here. Although there may be some plumbers and HVAC techs among those losing their jobs at Carrier, they are among the minority. How about the skilled machine operators on the floor. How about the folks using the breaks to make the covers for the units? The discussion touches on something that is tearing at the way of life in America......and you respond by calling someone that might say it was wrong....a whiner? You need to call a surgeon......cuz your head is stuck where it doesn't belong.

I have no idea what you are talking about Paul? I respect every person at that plant regardless of the job they do, or their title or lack of. I feel bad that they are loosing a job that they may have counted on for their career and retirement. I do understand the issues and the problems facing the workers in America.

I also feel each and every one has opportunity to start their own business, for example. Franchises are one easy way to start in business for yourself. I know a business coach that has helped several guys start their own business several weeks after finishing up a 20 year jail sentence.

SlamDunk

No temper flashing here. I responded matter of factly and Honestly. Passion? guilty.

There is a flavor of hypocracy on this thread blaming big corporations for off shoring work and flying ceo's in corporate jets yet small, trade businesses are providing opportunities for immigrants for either good quality work or their own bottom line. I dont see the difference.

I dont blame the government for the laws it passed. We elected our government.

I dont blame immigrants. They are doing something to better their lives.

I really struggle to remain silent when people lament about losing the american dream and blaming others. My employer seems to always have major construction going on and i do not exaggerate when I say that 99% of the trade work is performed by latinos, And they do a damned good job!

Ironworkers, ductwork installers, welders,plumbers,electricians, drywall and painters.

I dont see many African-Americans, Irish or Italo- Americans. Maybe latin-americans, but largely Latino immigrants with green cards and without.

Why is that? And if that is ok, why isnt offshoring?

Paul48

I think you've missed the point. I said, many post ago, that from a purely business standpoint, they were foolish if they didn't offshore their production. That being said, I DO blame our government for the laws they have passed. For God's sake, Doctors take an oath to do no harm. Who in their right mind would believe that any individual that they elect would knowingly pass a law that hurts the American people. There has always been an immigrant workforce in the US. They take pride in their work, and do a great job, that's not the issue. The issue is dwindling job prospects for all workers in America, not who is willing to do what or when. We need to focus on job creation, and reversing the damage done by unfair trade agreements.

SlamDunk

Yes, I did miss that point.

But, we elected our representatives. We get what we deserve.

Still though, in spite of the number of jobs going to Mexico, a lot of immigrants are still coming here so there must be job prospectives.

Fred

@SlamDunk said: I dont see many African-Americans, Irish or Italo- Americans. Maybe latin-americans, but largely Latino immigrants with green cards and without.
Not sure where you live but maybe the population of some of the groups you don't see many of is because they aren't in your area, I don't know. At the risk of some backlash from those who have their prejiduces, I happen to fall into a couple of those catagories you don't see many of. I am the product of a Black American father and his Italian war bride, WWII. Most poeple assume I'm black so I guess that puts me in both the Africam American and Italio-American catagories (if we must put people is certain boxes) .
I don't see many Latinos in our area so i guess we're even, Maybe???
I don't care what a person's heritage might be, I just think fair play, on-shore or off-shore is the right thing to do. If people are willing to work, let's find ways for them to do so and at fair pay. I know many proffessional minorities whose parents worked hard, some working two or three jobs to put their kids through college because they knew they would enter the job market at a handicap, the color of their skin. I also know many of several races who just want to get by. My concern is for those who have prepared themselves as best they could and who take pride in what they do (or could do if given the opportunity).
To answer your question, as i did earlier, I think Off-shoring is fine, just make sure we get a fair deal from those Fair Tarde Deals. To your point about us putting politicians into office, we do. Unfortunately the platform that got our support turns out, more often than not to be campaign trail rhetoric. How do we get an honest group of leadership in those elected positions?

My comment about losing some control of our temper and passion was more related to Paul's comment about the need for a surgeon. I found it humorous but it was starting to go in the wrong direction.

Sal Santamaura

Lots of passion in this thread. I've already posted about oligarchs "owning" the government, getting trade agreements passed and moving everything out of the country. Others have pointed out that technology in the form of automation has changed the labor landscape. It's the confluence of those two factors that brought us to where we are today. Absent nuclear conflict, both forcing functions will likely continue along the same paths.

Now to really shake up the discussion. Irrespective of where manufacturing takes place, automation is the underlying cause of human displacement. As a result, classic capitalism, where a tension (and, frequently in the past, some acceptable balance) between labor and capital is well on its way toward becoming obsolete. Once a substantial majority of the populace no longer qualifies -- since machines do that now -- as "labor," the dominance of capital will become unchecked. Repulsive as it might seem to most Americans, a different mechanism to distribute wealth created by the machines is almost mandatory. The alternative, i.e. sticking with our current form of (loosely) regulated capitalism, can only lead to such extreme economic disparity that violent revolution will result.

My personal journey has been opposite of what's reportedly typical. As a young person, I was rather conservative. With increasing age, even while working to achieve the comfortable retirement I'm now enjoying, I've become more and more liberal. I don't expect that a departure from the current economic/political system will happen during my lifetime, either as a result of ballot box or physical action. I do, however, predict that it will occur within the next 50 years. Hopefully Erin will keep heatinghelp.com active long enough for someone to find this post and declare me prescient. In any case, echoing what was said by another poster earlier, I'm sure glad I have no children. Either way the change occurs, it won't be pretty.

KC_Jones

The passion in this thread is encouraging, it means we all care. We need to take that passion and put it to good use talking to our friend and neighbors about the issues and educate them that changes need to be made. I have been screaming about jobs leaving this country since I can remember. Nobody wants to listen, but I am not discouraged and I keep repeating the message. I just hope people start listening before it's too late.

Paul48 said:

Who in their right mind would believe that any individual that they elect would knowingly pass a law that hurts the American people.

As far as they know they aren't doing harm, the lobbyists tell them so...right? When a bunch of money is being thrown at them are they in their right mind? Are we in our right mind when all we hear is what they tell us? One must dig and dig hard these days to find any truth....the news is certainly skewing it one way or the other depending on which network you watch.

vibert_c

@Dan
You asked how to fix the problem waaay back in this thread.
The American man with this answer is found at
www.armstrongeconomics.com

He was born and raised in Princeton NJ

His thread is 10K times as long as this thread.

vibert_c

Paul48

@SlamDunk

Does your company ,at least require proper insurance and documentation from the contractors that work at your facility? You suggested that some of the workers might be illegal aliens, and that's troubling. It would mean the contractor isn't even carrying comp on his employees, and a scumbag like that may not even be paying minimum wage.

SlamDunk

We absolutely do require insurance and compliance with laws. Very large legal department. We are listed as the insured on all proof of insurance.

But on big jobs there a lot of subs. Sometimes even the subs sub out. Not practical to play police officer; that's the GC's responsibility.

Your are correct. It was a suggestion and not a fact that there are illegals. I imagine most have visas or green cards.

Down here, it is common to find workers are contracted to contractors and are classified as independent contractors, so no workers comp etc. Some kind of loop hole that has been in the press lately. A lot of independent contractors not getting paid. State Attorney is investigating.

The Steam Whisperer

Sal Santamaura said:

Lots of passion in this thread. I've already posted about oligarchs "owning" the government, getting trade agreements passed and moving everything out of the country. Others have pointed out that technology in the form of automation has changed the labor landscape. It's the confluence of those two factors that brought us to where we are today. Absent nuclear conflict, both forcing functions will likely continue along the same paths.

Now to really shake up the discussion. Irrespective of where manufacturing takes place, automation is the underlying cause of human displacement. As a result, classic capitalism, where a tension (and, frequently in the past, some acceptable balance) between labor and capital is well on its way toward becoming obsolete. Once a substantial majority of the populace no longer qualifies -- since machines do that now -- as "labor," the dominance of capital will become unchecked. Repulsive as it might seem to most Americans, a different mechanism to distribute wealth created by the machines is almost mandatory. The alternative, i.e. sticking with our current form of (loosely) regulated capitalism, can only lead to such extreme economic disparity that violent revolution will result.

My personal journey has been opposite of what's reportedly typical. As a young person, I was rather conservative. With increasing age, even while working to achieve the comfortable retirement I'm now enjoying, I've become more and more liberal. I don't expect that a departure from the current economic/political system will happen during my lifetime, either as a result of ballot box or physical action. I do, however, predict that it will occur within the next 50 years. Hopefully Erin will keep heatinghelp.com active long enough for someone to find this post and declare me prescient. In any case, echoing what was said by another poster earlier, I'm sure glad I have no children. Either way the change occurs, it won't be pretty.

As I understand it, it was an American ( John Nash) back in the 1950's that was the first to show with mathematical support that "capitalism" is an inherently incomplete economic theory. He won the Noble prize for his work, and from the evidence in how many "First World" countries have structured their economies, we are the only one left that have not applied his economic theories. I think the basic definition of capitalism is that everyone doing whatever is best for themselves, will be the best for society. He apparently showed through mathematical proof that this was not true. "everyone doing whatever is best for themselves and for the overall community, will be the best for society. I think this is the future role of an elected government, to provide what is best for the overall community. This seems to be the point at which everyone is getting at.....A company just looking for what is best for themselves does not work. Someone has to be looking out for the common good. I think this is at the core of the conflict we are seeing regarding economic policies... you have one group that wants to bring us back to the 1950's and another saying, hay, that hasn't worked.

KC_Jones

^^^^^^^^^^^
I want to like that 1000 times.

hot_rod

The numbers are starting to come in from states and cities that have raised minimum wages it will be interesting to see how that looks. The politicians don't seem to have a problem raising their wages and enjoying their lifetime health care benefits.

SlamDunk

"everyone doing whatever is best for themselves and for the overall community, will be the best for society."

Hmmm. That seems to ring true.

Is " united we stand, divided we fall " another way of saying that?

'Cause we as a nation are pretty divided and society doesn't seem to be its best.

BobC

What we have now is rampant capitalism, it rewards those at the very top of the pyramid at the expense of all those below. I don't profess to know how to fix this but it does have to be fixed. We need another Teddy Roosevelt to start taking the machine apart.

Thomas Piketty's "Capital in the 21st century" goes over this whole thing in excruciating detail. I've glanced through the book and i think he's onto something. This short article will give you an idea -

http://www.rdm.co.za/business/2015/09/29/time-to-consider-piketty-s-alternative-to-rampant-capitalism

Bob

Paul48

It's an ugly type of capitalism, and I've never thought of it as ugly before. Never mind a total disregard of community, it is aimed squarely at the defenseless. From my experience, it is not just the CEO's and presidents, etc. that are raking in the cash. Middle management is being rewarded very generously. They do feel very bad for us, as we continue to get kicked in the teeth, though. I know of only one of them that refused to remain silent, and they walked her out.

Steamhead

This popped into my inbox and I thought I'd share it:

http://action.americanmanufacturing.org/p/dia/action3/common/public/?action_KEY=10258

BobC

In the early 90'si worked for a small electronics manufacturing company that got sold. The company that bought us got a million from the feds and state government for keeping jobs in the area.

A year later the door was padlocked and the owner had moved on to Pennsylvania to fleece them out of their money. Back here in MA one of the old employees found out the company health insurance plan had been cancelled 60 days before the plant was shuttered. He was left with a hundred grand in medical bills and no job.

bend over and smile,

Bob

SWEI

More coverage, this time from the inimitable Jim Hightower http://www.salon.com/2016/07/09/its_getting_hot_in_indianapolis_corporate_greed_moves_2100_more_american_jobs_to_mexico/

Paul48

Don't pay any attention to that.......It's just that loud sucking sound, we were warned about. I was in the Steelworker Union. It was their newsletter, that said they were going to Mexico, to try and organize the Mexican workers. They are only concerned with their jobs, and the union payroll.

Gordy

SWEI said:

More coverage, this time from the inimitable Jim Hightower http://www.salon.com/2016/07/09/its_getting_hot_in_indianapolis_corporate_greed_moves_2100_more_american_jobs_to_mexico/

"Share holder value creation" that is the bottom line......

So moving to Mexico does this by cutting wages. In a few years what's the next step for share holders to get their value creation? This is wall streets dirty little secret. All of it across the board.

hot_rod

SWEI said:

More coverage, this time from the inimitable Jim Hightower http://www.salon.com/2016/07/09/its_getting_hot_in_indianapolis_corporate_greed_moves_2100_more_american_jobs_to_mexico/

The electric mat side of Watts Radiant went to Mexico this summer.

Interesting that NAFTA pays for 2 years of college for the displaced workers.

http://www.news-leader.com/story/news/business/2015/11/09/watts-radiant-plant-springfield-close-next-year-impacting-61-employees/75475186/

Gordy

hot rod said:

SWEI said:

More coverage, this time from the inimitable Jim Hightower http://www.salon.com/2016/07/09/its_getting_hot_in_indianapolis_corporate_greed_moves_2100_more_american_jobs_to_mexico/

The electric mat side of Watts Radiant went to Mexico this summer.

Interesting that NAFTA pays for 2 years of college for the displaced workers.

http://www.news-leader.com/story/news/business/2015/11/09/watts-radiant-plant-springfield-close-next-year-impacting-61-employees/75475186/

Yeah nice touch.

Paul48

That'll come in handy for the employees still living at home with mommy and daddy. That's like winning a 3 day cruise. You just have to pay the airfare to Miami.

Gordy

Paul48 said:

That'll come in handy for the employees still living at home with mommy and daddy. That's like winning a 3 day cruise. You just have to pay the airfare to Miami.

Then upon arrival you find the ship is already leaving...

GreenGene

NAFTA............they also wanted to destroy trucker jobs by allowing Mexican truckers to drive through the US, ever seen trucks down there??? Then there was the NAFTA hiway from Mexico to Canada straight through again to cut American jobs.

It's tragic, they force a high wage style of living on us then say we're too expensive to pay "we can make more money paying others less, exploiting them because they have no rights and we can dump any toxic chemicals anywhere because they haven't been poisoned yet and won't have a clue".

Eventually the world will have it's Worker Revolution as we had ours and things will even out, unless the elite find another planet to exploit.