Please help with banging steam pipes!

I suggest both boiler outlets be used if you want a chance of getting dry steam. It's worth paying a little extra to the installer for that.

Bob

You friendly steam "expert"'s remarks translate into just one thing: he hasn't a clue as to what he's doing. Sorry to be blunt.

First off, the banging can be completely eliminated (well, except maybe minor expansion noises, but that's minor and will happen pretty much anyway) provided one actually fixes the whole system, and doesn't just replace the boiler. In fact, it is quite likely that a really competent steam guy can fix the banging noises with replacing the boiler at all!

You will not gain much in efficiency by switching from steam to either hydronic or hot air -- not enough to pay for the change.

So... what I would suggest, in all seriousness, is that you get hold of Steamhead (Frank Wilson, and one of the very very best in the business) who will travel to Buffalo if need be (although he will also charge for it, and it is right that he should) and get him to come up and give you a full consult on your system. You might also try Gerry Gill, over in Cleveland, but I don't know if he travels for jobs at all. He's also absolutely top drawer.

Then do it...

There is also JStar, but again not sure how far these guys travel. Also to add since I am blunt or brutally honest...the contractor you had is the reason contractors get a bad name.

They do have one thing to gain: $$$$$$$$ It was going to cost me anywhere from 2-4x the amount of a steam boiler install to convert to HW and even then they wouldn't guarantee the job as it didn't include running all new piping!!!! Click on my name and read my first posts. I was able to fix most of my issues BEFORE replacing my boiler, by myself. It's very frustrating, but you'll NEVER get the ROI on a conversion or the comfort. Don't despair. It's obvious those guys didn't know what they're doing. I had the same experience... steam rocks and you CAN get it working quietly and efficiently. Do try contacting steamhead or jstar. They both helped me trouble my old system and decide on the parameters of my new one which is a now working near perfectly.

cbscinta1 said:

... After an hour or so of inspecting the system and listening to everything, he felt it necessary to point out that even with the new boiler and adjustments, that there was a possibility that the banging would continue. Of course, I balked at this, but the other thing he said was that the system was so old and had been functioning improperly for so long that it would be worth considering a conversion to hot water or forced air.

Sorry, but no way would any TRUE steam expert tell you to switch to hot water or forced air. No way.. no how...

Unless.. wait.. maybe he wasn't a steam expert after all?

"They're simply not going to guarantee a silent operation."
That one statement shows they don't know what is going on with steam. You must also remember some people don't know what they don't know. So maybe this guy is clueless about how much he doesn't know about steam. The guy could be really good at what he does, all we are saying is he isn't a steam guy and probably doesn't have the ability to do right by you. I am just a homeowner that reads a lot and I could talk to you endlessly about a lot of those topics you mentioned I just don't have any official "credentials". And to be honest they AREN'T willing to do the work. The work REQUIRES silent operation so they aren't willing. It is absolutely possible to have silent operation. Like I said I am a blunt person because I think sugar coating and beating around the bush is wasteful. I am hoping for your sake you can get a real steam expert to come have a look. If I come across rude I apologize I just get really frustrated for others when I hear stories just like ones I went through.

As I said earlier, you need to find a steam man. However, I would never try and guarantee anyone a silent system, even if I installed it new (unless it was pex in concrete with the boiler room in a separate building). No system is silent and when you overpromise you own it. Everyone hears things differently. Quieting a system that has been screwed up over the years is a process, but it can be done. Some people are bothered by the sound of the radiator vent closing (I find it comforting as I know it's working). Just find a good mechanic and work through the problems, you will end up with a much quieter system than forced air. That I can guarantee you.

I have once told a customer to rip out the steam and go hot water.
Reasons follow:
1- boiler was 4 times too large and oil.
2- Steam piping was corroded and half the radiators had been removed when home was turned into a two family.
3- the hot water boiler for the new unit was larger than the heat load for the whole dwelling and gas fired.

I'm glad you found someone so competent, There are quite a few people from your area that seem to have a hard time finding a good steam man, please encourage him to raise his flag so others can avail themselves of his services.

Bob

I am curious where and why traps were installed.

Hello all, concerning @cbscinta1 's system.
For starters he has an ADSCO vapor vac system. He had no venting on the mains or the dry return, only one vent on a lower bath rad which was turned upside down, one vent on the 3rd floor bathroom rad and a rag stuffed in a hole where a vent would be on a 3rd floor wall hung rad.
The 3rd floor bath rad is missing its orifice but at the present time doesn't appear to be creating a disturbance in the system however we also have not dipped down to single digit yet.
The ends of the mains were joined together with a wye....( yes a wye) before they made one drop to one of the 3 loop seals. Both mains had sags that were holding water close to the ends.
The dry returns also had sags and were not properly supported.
There was a 1" runout leading to a 2nd floor bedroom rad that had about a 1/4" hole in the pipe blowing live steam in the basement. (This was wrapped in rags).
A kitchen radiator which is built into the cabinets and extremely difficult to get at, has a 11/2" standard steam rad valve bushed down to 3/4" feeding a 24sq.ft. Thin tube style rad. This radiator was blowing live steam into the dry return.
The 1st floor bathroom has an improperly piped undersized run-out with several 90deg. elbows with very little/ no pitch back to the main. (Hammers on start-up)
A few of the radiators were pitched toward the supply valve, one as much as 3/4".
At the boiler the pigtail was plugged solid. The burner only shut down on low water. A close nipple on the low water cut off was rotted out and leaking. Top and bottom sight glass nuts were leaking.
After replacing the pigtail, the existing vaporstat did not perform well on the low end.
Water was stacking in the dry return and backing up into the mains until the boiler cycled off low on water. Once water came back to the boiler during the off cycle, the burner came back on and again the water backed up.
I would be happy to explain what corrections I made on the system with pictures if anyone is interested.
After a few more minor adjustments I should be able to get the system silent other than the occasional expansion noises Jamie mentioned.

Ends of mains before and after.

Fred said:

I'm betting it was @Steamhead !

Nice try. I'm not surprised that DoubleD has all the work he can handle.

The way that ADSCO is piped with the loop seal, it looks a lot like the Tudor systems I've seen in Baltimore and elsewhere. Maybe they cribbed Mr. Tudor's design?

The reason for the lack of venting is obvious if you read pages 261-262 of Lost Art- the system originally vented the dry return into the chimney, and whoever removed the ADSCO gear in the basement didn't provide any venting. Not the first time we've run into this, eh?

@Charlie from wmass only one trap used. No way of getting to the rad without dismantling kitchen cabinets. I installed the trap in the basement.
@vaporvac It appears to run as a vacuum system.