Please help with banging steam pipes!

cbscinta1

DOn't know

Don't know if they have orifice plates, but I can say with certainty that every radiator in my house has a valve that looks like that, at least from the outside. They all seem to work, that is to say they all move. Some of them are missing handles, so I use a wrench. I have them all completely open, except for one of two in the master bedroom, which gets too hot if they're both on.

vaporvac

2 diffferent rads! Answers to ?s.

From your latest pic it appears you have two different rads. The first you showed has no traps or vents and is probably orificed. The second one has both a trap and vent. These may have been added later (by a knucklehead) to make up for the lack of Main venting, or these rads may have been put in at a different time. Most vaporvacuum systems didn't have vents as it would affect pulling a vaccum.  I mention it because they require different things to get them working properly.



It seems like you may have a few problems, which may be independent.

 1.  You're losing water. You may not see  a leak if it's in the the boiler, just the vapor through the chimney on a cold day. I had this and it meant I needed a new boiler, but it didn't affect  pipe banging.

2. You have a clogged pressure gauge. How can you know what happening inside the boiler.

3. Main vent(s) . You may not have any, but they may also be hidden behind any new walls or a ceiling in the basement. They loo like a bullet or a cat food can turned on its side. If you're not getting rid of the air fast enough the boiler will short cycle as it builds pressure more quickly.

 Did you ever check to see if  if steam is getting into the dry (overhead) return lines as suggested by Steamhead?  He said to simply feel them. You'll know if they're steam-hot ;-)

Is the banging at the pipes near the boiler?

Where are you located? There may be someone nearby to help trouble shoot these problem and help you fix them.

You should get The Lost Art book, even if you hire this out.

MDNLansing

Vent

As stated above, your vent is upside down. When the vent is upside down it closes. When it's closed, no air can escape from the radiator. Try turning your vents so they "point" up and are perpendicular to the floor. If all your vents are like this. it would account for nearly all of the issues you are complaining of.

Unknown

by the way

The boiler is piped wrong since the replacement and accounts 80 percent of your problems.. you'll know when you get the steamy deal books from this site.

cbscinta1

Buffalo

Thanks, I'm in Buffalo NY

cbscinta1

Only one is like that

The little rad with the vent is the only one with a vent. The other all look the this:

cbscinta1

No vents except the one

in the bathroom. The little rad with the upside down vent.

cbscinta1

Yes

Yes, I checked the return lines and they were not hot.

cbscinta1

Replacement?

I assume you mean the 1964 replacement? So would a competent contractor be able to reverse the damage? Is it highly involved?

Unknown

good steam pro

Good steam pro can bring it back to orginal system.. be warned, won't be the cheapest...

vaporvac

Bull headed Tee

 I think rjb may have missed that part of your post, but he is a professional and correct that your boiler is piped wrong. I think maybe noone mentioned it because sometimes with these old boilers with large steam chests it can still work OK. Othertimes, not so much. Basically, the riser to the main header should NOT be between the two boiler risers. It makes wet steam among other problems.  The pros may be able to comment on other piping issues.

 If you need a new boiler or decide to re-pipe this one, a competent steam person will be able to fix it. With a new boiler they MUST use the proper piping for it to work.

Unknown

they

Reduced steaming chest started around the early 60's , about when the package engineering took over the shipping.. back to this job... new Weil McLain EGH boiler would work with double drop risers into extra sized header... other original 'loop' pipe would stay but cleaned.. believe that's needed 'cool' the condesadate to help create a slight vaccum on system.. its all in the LAOSH book. Other real steam pros here, plz correct me if I'm wrong on the latter.. thks

cbscinta1

New Problem

Hello again.



I've noticed that since turning the pressure down, it's taking much longer to bring the temperature in the house up. Now the boiler fires up intermittently, whereas it used to run constantly when under higher pressure. The rads don't seem to be getting as hot as they used to. The banging is still happening, although it seems to have gotten ever-so-slightly less severe. Still too loud to sleep, for sure.



What is the reason for the increased heating time, and is it resulting in a longer burn and in turn more gas being used? Should I have expected the heating time to be slower?



Thanks, folks. You're all very helpful. I would run an entirely new steam or hot water system if I thought it was a sound investment. Honestly, I'd rather sell the house than spend $10k that might have lackluster returns.

Unknown

then

Then you have venting problem or somewhere crossover venting(s) got removed or plugged.. are u able to find a pro from top of this site listing in your area?

MDNLansing

Hrmm

Does anyone else wonder how water is getting back into the boiler once it enters those two long vertical pipes connected as a U on the bottom. If water flows out of the header and into the "middle" leg of that contraption, how is it getting out of there and back into the wet return?



It seems to me those pipes would have to fill completely before header water flowed back into the wet return. However, once they are full, how is the dry return water going to overcome those 3 large columns of water to get back to the boiler? I'm having trouble understanding the physics of that setup and it looks to me like those returns would always have a considerable amount of water in them. Am I missing something?

Unknown

think

Think 'p' trap... one drop of water enter in one end... one drop will comes out on other end..

cbscinta1

Nope

I'm afraid not. I'm in Buffalo, NY and couldn't find anybody within 50 miles

cbscinta1

Thanks

Thanks. I would love to hear some rough numbers if possible for this kind of job. Even if it's for the Baltimore area, it could give me an idea. On a side note, do you suppose replacing the system with hot water or replacing the steam boiler would be worth the resulting efficiency?

MDNLansing

Got that part

I get that, but that means the trap part is always full. So when the boiler fires, and the wet return water level rises even just a little bit, that whole rig is full of water. With the boiler off and cold, there would be some room for water to move from one leg to the other. But when it's steaming wouldn't the water level in that wet leg rise enough to fill the entire thing with water, then prevent water in the returns from getting back to the boiler?

Unknown

not if

Not if ya running the system in ozs.and partial vaccum... when ya running in lbs.. ya gonna be screwed.. gonna go back to the LAOSH again... favorite fall book reading

cbscinta1

Update and more photos

Update:



Some of the return lines are feeling warm. I can grasp them, so they're not "steam hot," but I thought this might be important.





Also, I found these pipes in three separate places along the foundation walls. Thought they might be important, too.



On another topic, all of my radiators have ornate covers on them. Is this reducing my efficiency? It would seem that the heat would travel better without them, but perhaps they were installed because steam rads get so hot...

MDNLansing

My Point

That's my point rjb. With a broken gauge and a pressuretrol running off the same pigtail / boiler port, could that be the problem? Perhaps the system is over pressurized and staying flooded?

vaporvac

Search...

If you search the Wall and Resources/systems lit. you will find a couple of great articles on the effect of rad covers. They can increase or decrease the apparent radiation depending on their design. I live in a big drafty house, so i retrofitted mine a bit to put out more heat. Amazing difference! No sense paying Duke! I also put reflective backing behind the rads. Even the colour and sheen of paint can affect how much heat they radiate.



If your boiler has a hole you have no choice but to replace it, but let's try to find some main venting first and unplug that guage! It may still last the winter or at least long enough to figure out a replacement.

You'll have to email someone privately as they don't discuss pricing on this forum.



p.s. Your vaccum system is designed to give a similar efficiency as HW since water boils below 212 under a vacuum. I assume you have a big house and forced air would leave you freezing, in general and cost $$$ to put in, as would a HW conversion. When I considered that for my system (before I knew what I had) noone would guarantee it.

Rod

Loop Seal at the End of the Steam Main

Hi- The “U” shaped piping in the 3 pictures you just posted, are called “ loop seals”. They allow the condensate (water ) from the steam that condenses in the steam main, to flow through to the return main and back to the boiler. However their job is to also stop steam from flowing to the return  main. If you have 3 of these it would indicate you have 3 steam mains.  It doesn’t appear that you have any main vents on your steam mains  .If you had them they would be located on the steam main close to Loop Seal just before the piping goes into the Loop. Any sign that they were ever there?



The lack of main vents on the steam mains will really slow up the distribution of steam to your radiators as all the air in the Steam mains must go through the tiny radiator orifices and exit out the return main's vent.  This is probably why the pressure setting  was turned  way up because people got tired of steam reaching the radiators so slowly.

   Venting the steam main through the radiators is a hold over from the coal burning days and should have been updated when the original boiler was replaced with a gas boiler.

On a coal fired boiler it took a long time for the fire to build up heat and steam to be produced. This allowed plenty of time for air to slowly move through the orifices and out of the system. Once the coal fire was started it was then probably maintained right through the whole heating season so that there was always some steam in the system.

 A modern burner is like a flame thrower - Full ON - OFF - Full On - etc. Heat and steam build much more quickly so it’s far more important to get the air out of the steam main as quickly as possible. Hence the need for having high capacity venting on the steam mains.  

I’ve attached a diagram of how the mains in your system seem to be laid out.  It’s like a ladder with the sides being the steam and return mains and the radiators installed on the rungs between.  In the diagram I made the base of the loop wider so the layout would be clearer. In reality as you can see in the photos, the sides of the loop are close together



In the diagram the and pictures the high end of the loop is the Steam Main and the lower end of the loop is the Return Main (see “A” and “B” in the diagram)   See where the returns mains lead and see if you can find a vent on the return main. It may be just an open pipe and not have vent. Look at any pipe off the Return Main that doesn’t attach to a radiator. It will probably be near the boiler after the last radiator return line joins the return main.

- Rod

gcp13

Punch list

When does the banging start? Just as the steam leaves the boiler,

While the radiators are heating up or when the condensate comes

back to boiler

1 flush low water cutoff

2 clean pigtail

3 replace gauge

4 clean sight glass an make sure it's not clogged

At the boiler

5 remove caps at bottoms of each water seal

And flush out all piping

If the return piping (trap seals) are partially

Clogged water condensate will back up

Cause banging and slow heating

cbscinta1

End of my rope

Thanks for all the help. Had another night of banging and no sleep last night.



It would seem that I have a choice between loud banging and slow heating radiators, or VERY loud banging and radiators that heat normally.



I am getting to the point where I simply want to hire somebody to SOLVE this problem once and for all. Whether it's installing vents, a new boiler, whatever. The problem is, there are so many know-nothing blowhards out there, that I'm very worried about finding somebody qualified who will stand by his work and not ignore my phone calls.



I have also considered drastic solutions like ripping the whole damn system out and replacing it with hot water or forced air. Of course I'd rather not, but I'm at my wit's end. I'm in Buffalo, NY and I can't find anybody who knows anything about steam. I would rather sell the house than live with constant banging and high heat bills for another season. Seriously.



Does anybody have any contacts in Buffalo that they can point me toward?

cbscinta1

Banging

The banging starts when the rads begin to fill with steam. It lasts longer and is quieter with lower pressure. It is louder and faster when the pressure is set high.

BobC

Buy the book

There have to be some good steam men in your area, that is prime steam country. Try asking friends and neighbors for their recommendations.



If I were you I would order "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" from this site, it's very well written and will give you all the information you need to know what is wrong with your system. At that point you could tell a good plumber exactly what you want done if you can't find a steam pro. We cannot see what you see so you have to educate yourself on how steam systems work.



Next I would check the steam mains to make sure there isn't a good place you could mount some air venting. How many steam mains do you have, what size pipe and how long are they?



After that I would installing a auxiliary 0-3 PSI gauge and try that boiler at a few ounces of pressure, right now you have no idea of what pressre it is running at. The fact it heats slower BUT it sounds like its shutting down on pressure tells me the vaporstat you have is seeing the actual boiler pressure - whatever that might be.



The loss of water is very serious unless it comes back after the boiler shuts down and cools a bit. that may mean the returns and loop seals have to be taken apart and snaked out.



Do any of the radiators seem to heat faster than others at this lower pressure setting? If they do and they are on the same steam main that may be an important clue.



How much will it cost to fix the system? It could be hundreds or it could be thousands, installing a new boiler before you understand why the system is not working correctly might just be pouring money down the drain. This is going to be expensive so you need to understand it before you undertake it - buy the book!



Bob

cbscinta1

I will

I would be happy to buy the book, but my guess is that I will still have to hire a contractor to assist me. Yeah, you'd think there would be a lot of steam guys up here. However, the term "dead men" really seems to apply. They're mostly 97% Heil/Trane/Goodman forced air service technicians that don't know squat about anything installed before 1990.



I would gladly pay hundreds of dollars to have the problem mitigated, and I'd probably pay thousands if it were fixed. However, $450 heating bills when we only keep the temperature at 62 degrees is absurd. I literally could pocket 40k profit if I sold the house tomorrow, and the only way I'll stay is if the heating situation is resolved permanently.



The loss of water seems to be less since the pressure was turned down. Yes, it fills up again after it cools but there is still some loss.



If I could get an idea of what $500, $2500, $5000, $10,000 would buy me, I'd be better equipped to move forward.

mcsteamy

Take it one step...

at a time.  I had a good long post typed out, but forgot just how... finnicky... this particular forum software is, and lost if when I click one of your pictures.  Not retyping the whole thing.   But here's the short version:



You've got some good advice from professionals.  Now follow it.  Order the book.  Read it.  I just finished re-reading it again this week.  Lot's of good stuff in there, and it is not at all difficult to be more "book educated" than 80% of the "steam" service people that will look at your system.  You won't ever be able to match their skills, but matching the diagnostic and design abilities of many so-called "pros"?  Not hard.  (Of course, then you have the regulars on here... and you just don't stand a chance there!)



So do what you've been told:  Replace your pressure gauge NOW since you are potentially wasting everyone's time if you cannot establish what pressure the system is running at.



Turning the pressure down will not increase your fuel bills.  It did decrease the banging at least, so that's a start. 



You need to add main vents.  If you cannot find a good place to put them without tearing things apart, you can drill and tap into a fitting or, less ideally, into a pipe at the end of the mains. 



Your banging is probably a result of water hammer.  Is it coming from the pipes in the basement, or from the radiators themselves?  Is it just one pipe banging, or all of them?  Can you isolate the banging?



Water hammer means you have water where it is not supposed to be OR you have steam where it is not supposed to be.  The bang is a slug of water being propelled by steam at high velocity into the end of a pipe run.  Since you state that the banging begins when the radiators BEGIN to fill

with steam and BEFORE any of them are full of steam, it doesn't seem

like the orifices are the problem, but I could be wrong.  At four pounds, you had lots of steam everywhere it was not supposed to be.  If you are, in fact, under a pound now, the banging sounds like it is starting before steam has a chance to get where it is not supposed to be.  Therefore, it seems likely your problem is water (condensate) where it is not supposed to be.



Here's my wild guess:  Check pitch on all steam-carrying pipes in basement to be sure they slope the right way, and that there are no droopy or unpitched steam-carrying pipes.  Check pitch on all radiators to ensure that they are pitched TOWARD the "exit" pipe opposite the valve so that condensate is not dumping back down the steam pipes.  INSULATE your steam-carrying pipes in the basement.  Even some fiberglass wrap insulation would help. 



Think:  Why do I have water (which is condensed steam) where it is not supposed to be?  Four pounds of steam was more than enough to blow all the water our of those loop seals and cause a good bang.  Was that the cause of the noise?  Maybe not all of it, but probably some of it.  My guess is once you get that pressure confirmed below a pound and have the right pitch on pipes and radiators, a lot of your noise problem will go away.

cbscinta1

Thanks

Thanks for your thorough reply!



-The return pipes in the basement are all pitched toward the boiler. The supply pipes are all insulated with asbestos.



-The pipes bang all over the house, including in the basement and around the rads, but it's worst and longest duration below and around the master bedroom (bad luck, I suppose--as I can sleep through the night in the small bedroom with the door closed).



-I'm happy to replace the pressure gauge. Is it a DIY project or do I need assistance? I'm embarrassed to say that I'm not particularly handy. In addition, I'll gladly pay somebody to install the main vents you suggest.



UPDATE: I checked the chimney again. There is no steam coming out, but there are "heat waves" and the chimney is very warm to the touch from inside the basement.

FYI, I've attached a photo of the water level. It shows a one-day loss of water. I marked the level I keep it at with black sharpie.

MDNLansing

Plummber

Water hammer is caused by steam and water crashing into each other. The cause of the PROBLEM is not know at this point, but the cause of the noise is certain.



No matter what, you need some vents on you mains. Vents are needed even if you install a new system and replace everything. I would start there.



You don;t need a steam pro to install some main vents. A good qualified plumber can do it. Find a plumber that will let you tell him what to install, how many to install, and where to install them. Make sure he knows upfront and in the beginning that you are hiring him to do a specific task of which you will provide all the details.



Once you get to a point that you are ready to call a plumber and pay him to do a little work, let us know. People here will be able to tell you exactly where to install them, and what kind to install.



Venting the mains might not eliminate all of the problems, but it will make it better, and it is something that needs to be done no matter what. Start simple, with one thing, and work your way up. Don;t try to tackle this problem by solving every single issue pointed out here. While all of them are valid, right now I think you just need a single change, make some progress, and move on to another change until this is ironed out.

vaporvac

Clean guage, not replace...hopefully!

The gauge is probably NOT the problem...it's the the pipe feeding it ie. the pigtail, that's probably clogged. Those old guages were ususally VERY accurate and unavailable today..  You have a vacuum system of sorts and need something to show the vacuum as well as the pressure so DON't replace it until you are SURE it's non=functioning.  ff you feel comfortable doing it, it can be a diy job and folks here can walk you through it. step=by=step, but it sounds like you should make a small list of the most important changes and find someone to do them, ie.. clean pigtail, instally vents, flush out returns.



It's frustrating, but what else have you done so far besides lower the pressure? Maybe you have some friends who are handy or know a good plumber that can has the necessary skills that could be guided through the process. It's a start. You have a great system...ripping it out to replace would cost much more than fixing it.

BobC

Add don't replace

Trying to clean the old gauge makes sense but even when it's working it's useless for measuring low pressure. Adding a second 0-3 PSI  low pressure gauge would allow the user to see exactly what pressure re the boiler was trying to operate at.



Bob

mcsteamy

No pigtail...

That's an internal syphon gauge and appears to be properly screwed directly into the boiler.  You can try to clean it by unscrewing it (turn the whole gauge counterclockwise, but don't force it--you do NOT want to snap it off) and cleaning out the hole in the back, but that's about it.



To replace the gauge you need to find another internal siphon gauge.  Probably easier to mount another low pressure gauge on a pigtail that trying to find an interal syphon gauge to buy.  ENFM makes one, don't know who sells them.  Mine's shot too.

MDNLansing

Two Gauges

All of the new combination gauges are 30 - 60 psi. You're better off to run a vacuum gauge and a pressure gauge separate. Certain gauge manufactures make them so there is no adverse affect on opposite pressure. Meaning the pressure gauge isn't damaged when vacuum is applied, and the vacuum gauge isn't damaged under pressure. I've yet to find a combination gauge with low pressure on the positive side, anything like 5 psi or so.

Double D

Just curious cbscinta1

What did you finally end up doing on this system?

nicholas bonham-carter

Finding a good steam man

I missed this thread at the time, but here is now the method to use for finding the local expert.

Go to the wholesale supply houses selling parts, and boilers for steam systems, and ask for the names of those local installers, (and their reputations!). That should give a short list from which to select someone to do the work.

The problem had by the original poster here, could have been easily fixed, if he had applied himself more diligently to identifying the problems from advice given here, and then finding the right person to make those repairs. It takes more than looking in the yellow pages under steam, and getting the first person out to start work. The homeowner should learn enough to be the prime diagnostician.--NBC

BobC

You are absolutely right

A homeowner has to know enough so he can ask the right question and to tell if the person he is talking to knows what he is talking about. Finding a qualified steam person isn't easy but it's very important.



i suspect a lot of the homeowners on this board do there own work because it's hard to find a good steam man in some areas. With Dan's books and the advice of the members of this site there is a tremendous font of knowledge that can be tapped. Anybody who wants to understand a steam system should own The Lost Art of Steam Heat that can be bought under the SHOP tab on this site.



Bob

Double D

Great input NBC & BobC

Sad to see this system go if that's what ended up happening.