Please help with banging steam pipes!

cbscinta1

Not solved yet

Hi everybody,



No, I have not replaced the boiler or done any work to the system. The holidays got in the way, and I'm just now getting to a point where I can pay more attention to the problem.



Pipes are still banging, my most recent bill was $600 (set at 63 degrees), and I still have not found anybody local to help me. I've called a few place, but they never respond--even when I indicate I may want a new boiler. Furthermore, this house has no insulation and is not adequately sealed, so I'm not sure that solving the boiler problems would actually reduce my gas consumption.



There was one man who responded from this forum, but I'm sorry to say that I misplaced his email. He indicated that he had several other jobs he was working on and probably didn't have the time, but I wouldn't mind getting back in touch with him if he's reading this.



In the end, my ideal solution is to bring in a qualified pro and paying a reasonable fee to have all of these issues corrected once and for all.

gcp13

Pigtail

While you set the pressure lower is a good thing you need to Make sure the pipe going from pressuretrol to the low water cutoff is clear & not blocked.

It should be checked every year

If it's blocked ,I'm sure it is, setting the pressure lower has no effect

Clean the pigtail or replace it and replace the gauge

Then you know what's going on

Looks like the bottom of sight glass is leaking as we'll

If your other leak is on wet return/trap seal you could have steam getting into the return and causing banging.

Air vent on bathroom radiator was a quick fix that should be removed

Try to seal the leaks even with flexible seal tape or something to see if this helps

Then get it replaced correctly

Banging noise after radiators start to heat indicate steam getting into returns

Could be pressure pushing water out of returns

1st thing clean pigtail and hole where it goes into low water cutoff

Stop leaks then run cycles to test

cbscinta1

Thanks guys

A few candid thoughts:



First of all, I'd like to give a shout out to Rod on this forum, who did take quite a bit of time explaining things to me a few months back via email. He is a wealth of information and I'm grateful to him for helping me to understand the mechanics.



I also appreciate all the advice on this forum, particularly that of the DIY variety.  To get so many replies was heartening, and it's a testament to the vast knowledge on display here. However, it's time for me to acknowledge the fact that I'm not going to fix this myself. I simply don't have the time or inclination to disassemble, patch, fix, replace, install, or inspect anything. I'm finished with it. For various reasons, I will most likely never again purchase a property with a steam system, so pursuing a DIY approach holds little value for me. You might as well ask me to remove my own appendix.



What I would like is to hire a qualified pro to get the system running as it should be or, barring that, replacing the system. I'm very disappointed at the lack of response I've received to my phone inquiries, which is why I've re-posted here. My needs are simple and straight-forward:



1. I want my winter heating bills to be $300 or less when the thermostat is set at 67 degrees, and for the house to be the same temperature throughout.



2. I never want to hear water hammer again for as long as I live.



3. I want somebody else to make this happen. I've read the articles, I've educated myself, and I want to hire a professional anyway.



Now, this may not ultimately be a problem that a steam pro can solve alone. I may need more insulation. I may need a new boiler (which I would gladly buy if I had a guarantee that it would work as I desire). I may need an entirely new heating system. It may be that the 2700 square foot 1926 Colonial that I live in is simply too large and poorly designed to heat efficiently in the depths of a Buffalo winter. I don't know the answer. What I do know is that I've been trying to offer money to people to help me and none of them seem to be interested. I know the polar vortex kept a lot of people busy, but to not even acknowledge a potential customer is lousy and frustrating. I'm forced to conclude that they're either all rich, dumb, or lack the requisite skills and are too gutless to tell me. Maybe I should have sounded more desperate. Who knows?



The bottom line is that if I can't find somebody to assist me, I will simply sell the house, take the profit, and go live somewhere else. I'd rather stay where I am, but if I can't heat a home efficiently, I don't want to live there. Period. A man's house is his sanctuary, it's not supposed to cause him stress. That's what jobs and wives are for.



If anybody can recommend a qualified steam guy (or girl--you never know) in the Western New York area (Buffalo, Rochester, Niagara Falls) that answers their phone and needs work, feel free to email me. I'll keep hanging out on the forum and am still happy to read whatever advice you wish to offer.



Thanks again for reading!

Jamie Hall

Well, sounds like...

you're about to give up, and I can't say I wholly blame you.  Finding competent help can be a problem.



I'm sorry we couldn't help you more!



I will comment on one of your numbered points, though: you want a 2700 square foot house in Buffalo New York to heat for $300 for the year.



Is that 2014 dollars?  or 1950 dollars?  It might be remotely possible to do it with a house which was at or near 100 percent solar.  Otherwise, my friend... not going to happen.  Just very roughly that translates to an effective overall R value for the structure of better than 30...

cbscinta1

I have done it

Yes, it is quite possible to heat that size of a house for less than

$300. I have done it before with similar specs, but never with a steam

system. I believe the key to making this work lies in the proper

adjustment, repair, etc of the system, up to and including a new boiler.





This winter is a different story, what with the polar vortex

and all, but a typical Buffalo winter has run me $310 in the coldest

months in 2600 sq ft (forced air), $190 in 1700 sq ft. (hot water), and

$150 in 1300 sq ft (forced air). This is over the past 9 years.

quack24

150

A month or the whole winter?

cbscinta1

Monthy

Monthly.



It now occurs to me that the above poster thought I mean $300 for the whole winter. What I meant was $300 per month max for winter months (December-March).



To give you an idea of how much I want to reduce my consumption, my latest bill was $600.

Jamie Hall

Ah...

that's different.  $300 a month might be achievable!  Sorry I misinterpreted.



And if it is achievable, it's achievable with steam.  Let's not give up yet.

cbscinta1

Update

For the first time in what seems like ages, the sky in Buffalo is blue. Coincidentally or not, today I first noticed what seemed to be a lot of exhaust coming out of the chimney. I don't know if this is because it's -10 degrees here today, or if it means the boiler is cracked. It is now overcast, and I can't see anything coming out. I am still filling the boiler daily.



I can't say if this has been happening all along, but I can say that this is the first time I've noticed it.

Steve_175

Possibly

Is the exhaust mostly white? If so it is likely a cracked boiler

cbscinta1

White

From what I remember (I saw it this morning as I drove away from the house) yes, it seemed white. However, I often see white exhaust on all the houses in my neighborhood, and I'm sure most of them have forced air/hot water.



I assume a cracked boiler needs replacement and cannot be repaired?

Steve_175

Yes

A cracked boiler is terminal. However if it is still heating the house you should be able to limp thru the winter. Then you can take your time in the spring/summer getting everything fixed right and drastically increase the efficiency of the system.

cbscinta1

Ok

In the meantime, is there a particular diagnostic that must be performed to determine definitely that the boiler is cracked, or does it need to be disassembled?

Steve_175

I defer

That Q to the pros here.

However I can tell you there is no disassembling any old boiler except with a sledge hammer.

I am just a homeowner with a steam system that has learned a lot here. Although I should mention that I am a licensed contractor so I know my way around buildings.

Double D

Fill it to the top.

See if any water drips down onto the burners or floor while the burner is on. If it's leaking you may also hear it as the water reaches the leak, assuming it has one.

Double D

Top and draft hood only

need to be removed. You can get a pretty clear view between the sections searching for a leak.  

Double D

Discontinued Peerless series 61 manual

Page 6 shows the draft hood which needs to be removed for inspection.

cbscinta1

Video

I have a video of the chimney, but was unable to upload it. Any suggestions from Admin?

H3809

youtube

Post it to youtube then paste the link here

cbscinta1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoNulMbPMyY&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoNulMbPMyY&feature=youtu.be

Double D

I'm not seeing anything excessive

How about anyone else?

BobC

Is it

about the same as neighboes burning the same fuel? If it is your probably ok. If you do the overfilling test, do it hen the boiler is on;y warm (not steaming hot). Let it sit for several hours and check for any signs of a leak, then drain it down to the normal level and make some steam to drive off ant oxygen in the water.



Bob

mgmine

leaking boiler

I had a leaky boiler a few years back the way I found it was from the advice from this forum. I looked at the chimney and saw white smoke. The real tip off however was that I had to add water every day. If you are adding a lot of water then you have a problem.

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

Are All Your Radiator Valves

Open all the way. If some are closed or partially closed, that can cause Banging. Call Utica Boilers for a list of qualified steam installers near you.



Thanks, Bob Gagnon

JStar

Buffalo

Seriously....there are no good steam men in Buffalo? Isn't there a lot of steam up there?

Steamhead

cbscinta1

if you can't find anyone close, get in touch. I've been known to travel when a steam heating consultation is needed. Might have to wait until spring though, the way things are going here in Baltimore.



You don't need a completely new heating system, just someone who knows how to work with it.

vaporvac

Pitch perfect?

I'm a homeowner like yourself with an orificed vaporvacuum system. I also had merciless banging that shook the whole house especially when coming from any sort of setback. I've always kept the pressures low with a vaporstat. We could isolate the banging to one pipe and it ended up it was 2+" out of pitch. When we fixed it more 1/2 gallon of water came out! So, have you been able to determine where exactly the banging takes place and have you checked the pitch of your pipes?



The noise is caused by the steam and condensate colliding so if your pressure is low, get a good level and check it out. It can be a very easy fix.I can't believe I waited so long to fix it. Colleen

Double D

Correct me if I'm wrong...

Shouldn't that Hartford connection be below the boiler water line closer to that plugged tee at the bottom? I doubt the top of that U is filled with water.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/325/Piping/291/What-you-should-know-about-Hartford-Loops

nicholas bonham-carter

The local list

From Utica boilers for Buffalo: their list of installers



http://www.uticaboilers.com/dealer_locator.asp?type=H&distance=50&zipcode=14204



Anytime you hear banging from a steam system, you are hearing the sound of wasted energy, with higher fuel bills. Time to start interviewing some of these people.--NBC

cbscinta1

Hello,

I know it's been quote a while since I posted here. I'm happy to report that I have an estimate for replacing this boiler, along with the attendant repairs necessary to make the system operate efficiently and silently. I know that it's forbidden to discuss price here, but I would really like to share the estimate with some of you simply to make sure that I'm paying an appropriate price. I have no reason to believe this company is dishonest--indeed they are highly rated and recommended--I just would like the peace of mind that comes with knowing I didn't overpay.

Would somebody be willing to take a look at the numbers? May I post them here? Send them privately to somebody? I will not list the name of the company, of course.

Many thanks,

Chris

Emeliza

I won't quote numbers or anything, but check the library for the RS Means building construction estimator. That's what I did to see if the quote I got was in the ball park. The book estimate was about $800 less than what I was quoted but I had an access problem and boilers aren't light. The contractor had to construct a post and beam structure in the stairwell to hang the boiler from to lower it down into the cellar via a chains-all. And get the old one out the same way. Hope you get all your problems solved.

nicholas bonham-carter

Make sure that the boiler has been sized properly to the total EDR of your radiation, and not just to the rating plate on the old boiler.
There should be a chart in the library here, which shows common radiator styles, and measurements. From that you can calculate the heat capacity (EDR) of each radiator, and therefore the total needed for the new boiler.
I would also replace any traps at this time, and investigate the orifices in the valves.--NBC

Fizz

I have a vapor system(Richardson), when I 1st moved in there were vents on 3 add-on radiators which have the traps like your one radiator, all other radiators have no traps. I had some banging because the vents don't belong on a 2 pipe system, and the radiators with the vents caused unbalance. Removed vents and throttled-back supply valve on trapped radiators, much improved. You need to remove the vent and plug it(local hardwar store), and check the trap to see if it's failed. See if the return pipe on that radiator gets hot, if so try closing valve to a position where heat steam doesn't get to trap. These you can diy. Also, you boiler piping is such that it's allowing too much water to get into pipes- you have a bullhead(T). Also you need to know how much radiation you have and what is your boiler firing-rate. This you can diy. If your firing rate is too high you can have it adjusted depending on the type of fuel. The bull-head is something that can be taken care of off season, or if you replace boiler. The others are easy to do.

cbscinta1

I'm just going to post this. If the admin wants to block any of the information, that's fine. Sorry if I'm breaking any rules, but this is a lot of money and I feel justified in asking if it's a reasonable price.

We are going from a 250k btu boiler to a 150k btu boiler. Here are the details:

*******************************************************

-Lennox 150,000 Btu 82% Efficient Steam Boiler MODEL: GSB8-150E

- 12 Year Heat Exchanger

- 1 Year Parts

- 1 Year Labor

- Cast iron Steam Header

- New Hartford Loop done in copper

- Electronic Water Feeding System

- Low water cutoff

- Connect gas and electric

- Exhaust into chimney

- Remove all debris

-FREE- 1 Year Comfort Select Annual Maintenance Plan

-1 Free Tune Up on Boiler - To be scheduled 1 year from install.

-Honeywell PRO 4000 Digital Programmable Thermostat MODEL: TH4110D1007

-Pitch steam headers and return pipes to ensure proper and quiet operation.

-Repair steam leak at header that feeds front "living room" area. Cut out existing leaking pipe and replace as needed.

-Cap off third floor/attic radiators as to prevent from heating.

*******************************************************


I won't quote the exact price, but I will say that the total is under $6,000. I live in Buffalo, NY and the company in question is highly recommended and reviewed.

Abracadabra

cbscinta1 said:

- New Hartford Loop done in copper

I'd ask that it be done in black pipe. I'd also ask the installer to check main venting and ensure it's adequate.

Sorry, I have no comment on the price.

KC_Jones

Was the new boiler sized to include or exclude the third floor rads? I am assuming they did a full EDR calculation and sized the boiler appropriately? That is a huge change in boiler size. Do any pros have a comment about Lennox boilers? I don't think I have ever seen them mentioned here. Also there is zero mention of installing by the manual at a minimum. There are way too many installs on this site not done to at least the minimum....in reality for best performance and operation you want it installed better than the minimum. Remember anything that isn't in the contract you really can't do anything about after the fact.

nicholas bonham-carter

Definitely have a guarantee that the instructions for piping be done according to the manual.
I believe the Lennox is a rebadged Dunkirk, and is probably as good as any other make, as long as it is piped right, as these low water content boilers have no forgiving steam chest to enable forgiveness of improper piping.
This is most important: a skimming port must be installed in its designated position, and they must teach you how to use it, as it may take many hours of very slow dripping out into a floor drain, or bucket to remove any left over oil from the work. A can of something will not work!!!!!
Let us know how it comes out.--NBC

nicholas bonham-carter

This could be it, or similar, and the piping diagrams are inside.--NBC

http://www.ecrinternational.com/secure/upload/document/3294.pdf

KC_Jones

I seem to remember @Steamhead mentioning the Dunkirk being very sensitive to proper piping because of the side outlets. Perhaps he or someone else could confirm that? I have read a lot of posts on here so I could be remembering wrong.

Dave0176

Dunkirk puts very detailed piping diagrams in its install manual, so they insist you follow their piping to a "T"