Please help with banging steam pipes!

nicholas bonham-carter

This could be it, or similar, and the piping diagrams are inside.--NBC

http://www.ecrinternational.com/secure/upload/document/3294.pdf

BobC

I suggest both boiler outlets be used if you want a chance of getting dry steam. It's worth paying a little extra to the installer for that.

Bob

cbscinta1

UPDATE: I have temporarily cancelled my plans to have the new boiler installed. Here is the reason:

Today the contractor came and brought along with him a steam "expert." After an hour or so of inspecting the system and listening to everything, he felt it necessary to point out that even with the new boiler and adjustments, that there was a possibility that the banging would continue. Of course, I balked at this, but the other thing he said was that the system was so old and had been functioning improperly for so long that it would be worth considering a conversion to hot water or forced air. Of course I know this will cost more, but I'm having trouble stomaching the thought and it cannot be done on their schedule until the spring which means another winter of this f***ing noise and expense.

I have no insulation in the house, and they did admit that that would be something that should be done, too. Their point seemed to be that a new steam boiler and some adjustments would not completely solve the main issues (inefficiency and noise).

I'm very frustrated and now feel worse off than before, but I'd appreciate any more advice. I do feel these guys are honest folks though, as they have nothing to gain by telling me these things, and have $6000 to lose by me choosing not to move forward.

I really need to know if it's true that the banging cannot be completely eliminated, and at this point I'm willing to pay somebody to come to Buffalo from out of town if it means fixing this system once and for all.

Jamie Hall

You friendly steam "expert"'s remarks translate into just one thing: he hasn't a clue as to what he's doing. Sorry to be blunt.

First off, the banging can be completely eliminated (well, except maybe minor expansion noises, but that's minor and will happen pretty much anyway) provided one actually fixes the whole system, and doesn't just replace the boiler. In fact, it is quite likely that a really competent steam guy can fix the banging noises with replacing the boiler at all!

You will not gain much in efficiency by switching from steam to either hydronic or hot air -- not enough to pay for the change.

So... what I would suggest, in all seriousness, is that you get hold of Steamhead (Frank Wilson, and one of the very very best in the business) who will travel to Buffalo if need be (although he will also charge for it, and it is right that he should) and get him to come up and give you a full consult on your system. You might also try Gerry Gill, over in Cleveland, but I don't know if he travels for jobs at all. He's also absolutely top drawer.

Then do it...

KC_Jones

WOW, just WOW. As a homeowner this is what I would have heard from that contractor. "I have no clue what I am doing so I want to sell you what I do know about". I can almost promise you their alternatives will cost you more money than the steam boiler replacement...that is their motivation to tell you those things. I am a very blunt person, but I am honest. I wouldn't invite that person back in my house if they paid me. Anything can be fixed and it is well documented on this site and by pretty much all the pros that the system can be made efficient and quiet. In my opinion that contractor is trying to take you for a ride...no matter what people say about them. I had a similar experience with the "best" contractor in my area. I am not there and that is just my opinion as a homeowner. I hope a pro chimes in on this one!

KC_Jones

There is also JStar, but again not sure how far these guys travel. Also to add since I am blunt or brutally honest...the contractor you had is the reason contractors get a bad name.

RobG

I agree with the others, you need a steam pro. I understand your frustration but you will not be satisfied with forced air and converting to hot water would only be marginally better and may not even work. Best just to get your system up and running as it once did. Steam pro's know other steam pro's, try contacting @Steamhead or @jstar, they may be able to help you.

vaporvac

They do have one thing to gain: $$$$$$$$ It was going to cost me anywhere from 2-4x the amount of a steam boiler install to convert to HW and even then they wouldn't guarantee the job as it didn't include running all new piping!!!! Click on my name and read my first posts. I was able to fix most of my issues BEFORE replacing my boiler, by myself. It's very frustrating, but you'll NEVER get the ROI on a conversion or the comfort. Don't despair. It's obvious those guys didn't know what they're doing. I had the same experience... steam rocks and you CAN get it working quietly and efficiently. Do try contacting steamhead or jstar. They both helped me trouble my old system and decide on the parameters of my new one which is a now working near perfectly.

KC_Jones

Ok I got a notification that @bc3510 commented on this post, but I don't see any comment...can't see any comments by him actually. Something weird going on?

Abracadabra

cbscinta1 said:

... After an hour or so of inspecting the system and listening to everything, he felt it necessary to point out that even with the new boiler and adjustments, that there was a possibility that the banging would continue. Of course, I balked at this, but the other thing he said was that the system was so old and had been functioning improperly for so long that it would be worth considering a conversion to hot water or forced air.

Sorry, but no way would any TRUE steam expert tell you to switch to hot water or forced air. No way.. no how...

Unless.. wait.. maybe he wasn't a steam expert after all?

vaporvac

Ok I got a notification that @bc3510 commented on this post, but I don't see any comment...can't see any comments by him actually. Something weird going on?

Me too!!!

cbscinta1

Ok, I get it--but to be fair this guy did know a lot about heat loss and the other things that are necessary to bring my house into the 21st century--all things he doesn't offer as a service. Things like insulation, box sills, different types of insulation options, etc. They didn't really try to convince me either way. He was quite knowledgeable and was a former trainer of NYSERDA employees. They took their time and answered a million questions I had, so I'm not willing to throw them under the bus. They are willing to do the work whatever I decide. They're simply not going to guarantee a silent operation. I think it's reasonable that they told me this upfront and have spent collectively six-eight man hours diagnosing my system. I'd say that warrants appreciation.

I'm still open to tuning my system and replacing the boiler, but I just wish there was somebody local I could work with. Just fed up and frustrated.

vaporvac

I know exactly where you're coming from; I was there a couple of years ago. Unfortunately zipping up your house only determines how long the gas will run. Your system problems will remain. My certified inspector,who is pretty well respected, actually suggested I remove the steam, install HVAC heat pump into my existing 1st floor duct work and let that heat rise to heat my second floor and third floor. That was a joke as my house is pretty big and even with tightish sealing, vapor barriers and R50 in the attic, it still takes alot to heat up the mass.

Old houses have different requirements that most people don't understand. We're not meaning to throw YOUR guys under the bus, but their comments do show a lack of understanding of YOUR system. There is absolutely NO reason why your system can't work quietly and it may be within your power to get there.

KC_Jones

"They're simply not going to guarantee a silent operation."
That one statement shows they don't know what is going on with steam. You must also remember some people don't know what they don't know. So maybe this guy is clueless about how much he doesn't know about steam. The guy could be really good at what he does, all we are saying is he isn't a steam guy and probably doesn't have the ability to do right by you. I am just a homeowner that reads a lot and I could talk to you endlessly about a lot of those topics you mentioned I just don't have any official "credentials". And to be honest they AREN'T willing to do the work. The work REQUIRES silent operation so they aren't willing. It is absolutely possible to have silent operation. Like I said I am a blunt person because I think sugar coating and beating around the bush is wasteful. I am hoping for your sake you can get a real steam expert to come have a look. If I come across rude I apologize I just get really frustrated for others when I hear stories just like ones I went through.

Emeliza

I am also another homeowner in the same predicament, old house, steam system and now new boiler which is working quite nicely even though it hasn't had a real proper skimming so I probably not getting the driest steam ever.

There is no way that you can tighten up an old house to the tightness of new construction (this still depends on how closely the builder follows the specifications and details) unless you do a total gut rehab--not cheap. And before you have all the updates (insulation, windows, etc.) get an energy audit done. You need a source of heat that is reasonably economic to run, provides comfort, is relatively quiet (definitely not forced air which comes off and on all the time when it is cold) and doesn't break the bank to install.

Conversion to either forced air or hot water will probably be more expensive than replacing the steam boiler and installing the proper near boiler piping and anything else that has to be fixed. If you want to know the details of my install (including price) I would be happy to share that with you off this site. Email me --emelizab@gmail.com.

RobG

As I said earlier, you need to find a steam man. However, I would never try and guarantee anyone a silent system, even if I installed it new (unless it was pex in concrete with the boiler room in a separate building). No system is silent and when you overpromise you own it. Everyone hears things differently. Quieting a system that has been screwed up over the years is a process, but it can be done. Some people are bothered by the sound of the radiator vent closing (I find it comforting as I know it's working). Just find a good mechanic and work through the problems, you will end up with a much quieter system than forced air. That I can guarantee you.

Fizz

You have an orifice system except for one radiator, as such opening them all the way may be causing steam to get in the returns. Check your returns on the radiators, if they get extremely hot they may best be served by closing them somewhat to readjust them to proper setting. Also, remove the vent from the maverick radiator and replace it with a plug. Check your radiation to your boiler's output in sq ft of steam, if it's oversized it will cause waterhammer. These can be checked by yourself. If boiler is oversized, it can be re-fired by a steam technician to radiation which should help quiet pipes. As eariler posts by steamies suggest you will need to address other more costly issues, but these diy measures may help relieve some acoustical nuisances.

cbscinta1

welmmjhhmgv

Double D

Is there or was there a vent on the tee in the center of the photo?

Charlie from wmass

I have once told a customer to rip out the steam and go hot water.
Reasons follow:
1- boiler was 4 times too large and oil.
2- Steam piping was corroded and half the radiators had been removed when home was turned into a two family.
3- the hot water boiler for the new unit was larger than the heat load for the whole dwelling and gas fired.

cbscinta1

For those who were interested, I am extremely happy to report that I found an extraordinarily competent steam man here in Buffalo. He has managed to solve most of my issues, in particular reducing the water hammer to almost nothing. The system is now fully vented, properly pitched, all the leaks are fixed, and it seems to be working more efficiently, although I won't really know until the winter is in full swing.

He installed main venting in several places, re-pitched much of the main that was causing the worst water hammer, replaced a dozen feet of piping, completely re-piped a proper Hartford loop at the boiler, adjusted radiator pitch, disconnected an old over-kill radiator in the attic, installed traps where appropriate, and completely serviced the boiler itself. This included a new sight glass, pigtail, various valves, and an accurate pressure gauge. He also installed the vaporstat that I purchased to get the pressure down to the appropriate level. We also discovered that the entire system was pretty much working improperly and had been for decades. He also explained that the new steam boiler that I *almost* purchased would have been about 100,000 btus too small for the house. Dodged a bullet there. I'm sure there's more but that's all I can think of now.

The man who helped me is on this forum, and I'll let him "out" himself if he wishes and show photos, of which he took many. Otherwise, I'll preserve his privacy. One thing's for sure--I won't ever be using anybody else for anything HVAC-related. Ever.

I understand steam so much better now. Looking forward to working with this guy again--hopefully he'll still be working when it comes time to put in a new boiler.

BobC

I'm glad you found someone so competent, There are quite a few people from your area that seem to have a hard time finding a good steam man, please encourage him to raise his flag so others can avail themselves of his services.

Bob

Fred

Come on, Spill the beans! Make him blush! It sounds like he deserves it!! Best of luck to you. I'm glad you found someone so competent.

cbscinta1

He pretty much told me that he has all the work he needs. This in addition to the fact that I didn't get his permission is why I will preserve his privacy.

I suppose his saying that didn't surprise me much, as it's usually the incompetent boobs who are always looking for work. The knowledgeable and efficient people are too busy working on existing jobs to BS like that.

I'm sure he's reading this. He's welcome to introduce himself if he feels like it. I'll leave it up to him.

Fred

I'm betting it was @Steamhead !

Charlie from wmass

I am curious where and why traps were installed.

cbscinta1

Most of the radiators have orifice valves, but one of them did not, requiring a trap similar to the one on the small rad shown in the photos earlier in the thread.

Double D

Hello all, concerning @cbscinta1 's system.
For starters he has an ADSCO vapor vac system. He had no venting on the mains or the dry return, only one vent on a lower bath rad which was turned upside down, one vent on the 3rd floor bathroom rad and a rag stuffed in a hole where a vent would be on a 3rd floor wall hung rad.
The 3rd floor bath rad is missing its orifice but at the present time doesn't appear to be creating a disturbance in the system however we also have not dipped down to single digit yet.
The ends of the mains were joined together with a wye....( yes a wye) before they made one drop to one of the 3 loop seals. Both mains had sags that were holding water close to the ends.
The dry returns also had sags and were not properly supported.
There was a 1" runout leading to a 2nd floor bedroom rad that had about a 1/4" hole in the pipe blowing live steam in the basement. (This was wrapped in rags).
A kitchen radiator which is built into the cabinets and extremely difficult to get at, has a 11/2" standard steam rad valve bushed down to 3/4" feeding a 24sq.ft. Thin tube style rad. This radiator was blowing live steam into the dry return.
The 1st floor bathroom has an improperly piped undersized run-out with several 90deg. elbows with very little/ no pitch back to the main. (Hammers on start-up)
A few of the radiators were pitched toward the supply valve, one as much as 3/4".
At the boiler the pigtail was plugged solid. The burner only shut down on low water. A close nipple on the low water cut off was rotted out and leaking. Top and bottom sight glass nuts were leaking.
After replacing the pigtail, the existing vaporstat did not perform well on the low end.
Water was stacking in the dry return and backing up into the mains until the boiler cycled off low on water. Once water came back to the boiler during the off cycle, the burner came back on and again the water backed up.
I would be happy to explain what corrections I made on the system with pictures if anyone is interested.
After a few more minor adjustments I should be able to get the system silent other than the occasional expansion noises Jamie mentioned.

KC_Jones

You should know by now we LOVE pictures! Good on you for working on this! Another steam system preserved!

Double D

Ends of mains before and after.

Double D

Near boiler control side before and after.

Steamhead

Fred said:

I'm betting it was @Steamhead !

Nice try. I'm not surprised that DoubleD has all the work he can handle.

The way that ADSCO is piped with the loop seal, it looks a lot like the Tudor systems I've seen in Baltimore and elsewhere. Maybe they cribbed Mr. Tudor's design?

The reason for the lack of venting is obvious if you read pages 261-262 of Lost Art- the system originally vented the dry return into the chimney, and whoever removed the ADSCO gear in the basement didn't provide any venting. Not the first time we've run into this, eh?

vaporvac

Does this still run as a vacuum system?

Double D

@Charlie from wmass only one trap used. No way of getting to the rad without dismantling kitchen cabinets. I installed the trap in the basement.
@vaporvac It appears to run as a vacuum system.

Double D

Here is why I removed the center pipe and piped in a factory specked Hartford loop which is now allowing the return water to get back to the boiler. The photo with the clear tubbing shows how high the water rose at only 1/4lb pressure. With the equalizer line tied in where it is, the boiler pressure pushes down on the body of water in the center pipe and pushes the water up in the end pipe high enough to block the flow of water returning to the boiler. The water continues to back up until the low water cut off shuts the burner down. When the pressures equalize the water returns to the boiler. Earlier on in this thread @MDNLansing was wondering how the water returned to the boiler through that piping. The way it was configured, it didn't.