CO again

Gary Reecher · January 2004

Scott Mini SA

I carry one does anyone else carry one for personal protection?

steve_26 · January 2004

Fuel

Tim,

what type fuel Nat Or LP?
could have the wrong spring in the valve, or to much excess air..

steve

Glenn Harrison_2 · January 2004

Every tech in our company

carries a CO alarm that clips on your belt. It's made by A.I.M. Reads 0 to 999 ppm and alarms continuously at 35 ppm.

http://www.aimsafety.com/

[Deleted User] · January 2004

whats the gas pressure?

whats the gas pressure? are the proper orifices installed?

[Deleted User] · January 2004

if you block off the draft diverter

momentarily with a piece of sheetmetal, do the readings clean up?

[Deleted User] · January 2004

you said there is another boiler there..

is its vent plumbed in the same way? does the boilers spec sheet mandate a particular vertical height of flue pipe before offsetting?

[Deleted User] · January 2004

is there a bunch of

crap piled up in the chimney above the ash pit?

John R. Hall · January 2004

Got an invite

A contractor group has asked me to give a seminar on CO for a fall meeting. I expect a few of you fine folks will be hearing from me -- I'll need your support.

Glenn Harrison_2 · January 2004

Here's another from Chicago

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/010704_ns_carbonmonoxide.html

A total of 18 people were evacuted from this building.
A perfect example of why only professionals should install heating equipment.

Glenn Harrison_2 · January 2004

What is the gas pressure, and was the meter clocked? (nm)

.

Kal Row · January 2004

true story

this happend right here on ths isle of long, a few years ago - i think it was 98 (for exact date search the national tranportation safty board's db) a lady and child took off from farmingdale's republic airport in a cessna 172, (which uses a stove pipe over the exhust manifold for heat) and flew toward boston. Somewhere over the sound, the ATC got no response from the lady, and after repeated trying, got a response from the child, that the mother was asleep, then nothing from the child also, well, the airplane ran out of fuel 4 hrs later, and gently came to rest in a field well north of boston, the mother and child unscratched, but having been dead from co, for 3.5 hours,
i fly with a co detector

Murph'_4 · January 2004

hey Timmie

could you post some pics of silly system??!

[Deleted User] · January 2004

whats all the other reading

that the analyzer took?

Mark Hunt · January 2004

Thank God

no-one died.

I agree that professionals should be the ones installing this equipment Glenn, but they should also be TRAINED professionals.

I think that you would agree that just getting a piece of equipment to fire does not a professional make. Obviously that landlord knew how to get it to burn, but he surely had NO idea of how to make it burn correctly.

For some reason people believe that as long as the vent is "plugged in" it will draft. Just like plugging in a TV and it turns on.

There are companies out there that operate on the same level as that landlord, and there are professionals just as ignorant about the dangers of CO.

That guy tried to save a few bucks. He is no different from some of the PHVAC contractors that I talk to.
"Testing equipment is expensive", "Do you know how much money it will cost to have my people trained?". I hear it all the time.

Or this, "Not that many people die from CO", "Oil doesn't produce CO", "I always get a nice blue flame", etc.........

If not us, who is supposed to know better? Who is supposed to be the expert?

If you ask someone who they would call when the CO alarm goes off, they will most likely say the fire department. I always ask them why, and they NEVER know. They just say the fire department. I then ask if they would call the fire department if they had no heat. They always say no.

I tell my customers that they need to call me if the CO alarm goes off, and they BETTER be calling me from a cell phone standing in the driveway, or the neighbors house.

To all reading this post, if your CO alarm ever goes off, get the hell out of the house!

It was great to see that all of your techs carry those CO monitors Glenn. I wish more did.

Mark H

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Mark Hunt · January 2004

It can get you anywhere

Quite few CO cases from boats as well.

It is a sneaky devil that CO.

Mark H

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Glenn Harrison_2 · January 2004

Yes, Thank God

and your right, Trained Professional is the key, I was just saying Professional versus Contractor.

I just did a call last night for a new customer that had been using a local plumbing contractor for there boiler maintenance, but couldn't come out for an emergency. Boiler service every year, but T-couple 5 years old and bad. I replace the T-couple and fired the boiler 3 minutes later the relief starts spilling. Then I had to drain the 18 gallon compression tank. Then I fired the boiler again and tested the co, found 200+ in the flue, which was dumping every time the boiler fired due to a bimetal flue damper. I turned down the gas pressure and got the CO to 35 ppm in the flue, and recomended they replace the boiler soon, due to the gas train obviously being worn out amongst other things like mineral buildup.

I agree with the idea of calling you or me for a CO alarm, but I would also say that make sure you can get to the house quickly, because a lot of people will not listen and get out and stay out of the house, especilly if it's cold out,in which case someone has to get ther quickly to protect the customer. So if you can get there quickly fine. If not, I would always get the FD and or Gas Co out there just to protect the customer. I actually had to do that a couple of weeks ago with a night call. Call came in for alarm going off, and with distance and snow storm, I was an hour away. So I had the dispatcher call them back to get out of the house and call the FD while I was en route. I didn't want to get to the house and find them passed out on the floor because they didn't get out due to it being cold.

As far as our monitors go, they are mandatory with punishment for not wearing them. Unfortunatly the reason we all have them and they are mandatory is due to a call I went on in my younger and stupider days years ago where I walked into a house with a "burning smell" and the smell turned out to be a sooted up and backdrafting boiler due to negative pressure from the fireplace running all day. By the time I had figure it out (45 minutes later) I had been breathing 225+ parts CO by the boiler. Now that was a leason learned the hard way for the whole company. Fortunatly after 4 hours of O2 treatment in the ER, I'm fine.

So for everyone reading. Get CO meters so you can test every place you go. You never know what your walking into.

Mark Hunt · January 2004

Perfect!

I hope to meet you someday!

Mark H

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Glenn Harrison_2 · January 2004

Someday Mark, Someday

By the way, keep an eye out for a post I'll be putting up about another call I had yesterday. It's a prime example of why all appliances need to have draft hood spill switches and all chimneys need to have caps with screens on them. Just have to get the pictures ready.

Mark Hunt · January 2004

A mystery!

http://www.projo.com/massachusetts/content/projo_20040108_sw8co.3be25.html

Mark H

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Mark Hunt · January 2004

Christmas present saves lives

http://www.krgv.net/cgi-bin/newspro/viewnews.cgi?newsid1073528696,27248,

Mark H

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Mark Hunt · January 2004

Maybe not a mystery

http://www.heraldnews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10769239&BRD=1710&PAG=461&dept_id=99784&rfi=6

Mark H

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Mark Hunt · January 2004

Have the chimney cleaned

Happened today.

Customer called us for a small plumbing job.

My partner saw signs of back-drafting. He detected CO when he tested with the Bacharach.

He removed the flue piping from the chimney and found that scale had piled high enough to block the flue resulting in combustion products back-drafting into the home. This was an oil fired boiler.

Now get this, AFTER he cleaned the boiler he got a CO reading of 215ppm. That was with 0 smoke. he made sevearl adjustments and got the CO down to 25 with 0 smoke.

It's so important that we test!

Mark H

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Mark Hunt · January 2004

All too common mistakes

http://www.komotv.com/stories/29151.htm

Mark H

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Mark Hunt · January 2004

A classic case

of NO media information. The media seems disinterested in CO situations.

I think that is because we haven't had any "mass" CO poisonings. When it's only a few people, it gets minimal coverage.

http://www.theiowachannel.com/health/2752608/detail.html

Mark H

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Mark Hunt · January 2004

\"Faulty furnace\"

http://www.wbbm780.com/asp/ViewMoreDetails.asp?ID=32588

Mark H

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Glenn Harrison_2 · January 2004

That's the same house as I posted.

Except the WBBM report sounds more like a City of Chicago customer service bulletin than a factual report on the CO poisoning. They didn't even get the equipment right (it is a Boiler) and didn't mention that 3 people were hospitalized and 18 evacuated. Well I suppose some CO awareness is better than none from the press.

Mark Hunt · January 2004

Here's another.

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_010904_news_carbon_monoxide.1267fef69.html

We will probably never know the exacr cause.

Mark H

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Gary Reecher · January 2004

Remember October 15, 2001?

Sterling, Illinois, Wallace School. 279 treated for carbon monoxide poisoning. Don't recall much be said about this exept in our local paper the Sterling Gazette. A link to an October 31,2001 article in reference to the incident follows: http://ww3.saukvalley.com/archives/story.php?ID=3105

Gary Reecher · January 2004

Remember October 15, 2001?

Sterling, Illinois, Wallace School. 279 treated for carbon monoxide poisoning. Don't recall much be said about this exept in our local paper the Sterling Gazette. A link to an October 31,2001 article in reference to the incident follows: http://ww3.saukvalley.com/archives/story.php?ID=3105

Mark Hunt · January 2004

Thanks Gary

That one will go into MY archives.

When I have enough evidence, there are some law makers that will be getting a visit from me. SEVERAL visits I imagine.

Mark H

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Glycol Bob · January 2004

Work Place CO Levels

In doing a little research, I see that OSHA allows 75 ppm of CO in the workplace. Why would that be allowed if CO was so terribly ravaging? How many of you guys do new construction and if so how many days do you stand in front of the 175,000 btu salamander blasting on you? But yet Mr. Hunt is shutting people down for a few ppm of CO. If people did not build these new houses so tight, you would have enough dilution air to knock the CO levels down. They allow 800 ppm for your oven and stove. Are you supposed to stop cooking? I guess we could solve this "supposed" CO problem and the nations overweight problem together. Still not convinced. Sorry, Glycol Bob

Larry (from OSHA) · January 2004

not quite right Bob

The OSHA alowable limits for CO in the workplace by federal standards are 50 ppm over an 8 hour period. Here in Minnesota, the allowable limits for general industry are 35 ppm and in construction the limits are 50 ppm. (I guess that construction guys are just tougher.) The ceiling limits are 200 ppm in 15 minutes. There is data that indicates that detrimental effects can occur from exposures in the lower end of the scale. I don't think that anyone needs to be exposed to any levels of CO in the workplace and when I encounter them citations may be issued. I have requested that an employer cease operations and evacuate his employees from the premises because of CO levels above 300 ppm from gas fired ovens. That guy thanked me even though citations were to follow. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I for one, would not tell Mark Hunt or anyone else to stop their campaign to inform the public and raise the level of professional services that heating contactors can and should provide.

Just my perspective.

Larry

Unknown · January 2004

Glycol Bob

You need to come to one of my training sessions on CO, combustion testing or get to a Bacharach or NCI class. I think after attending one of those sessions you will think diffrently.

The standards that are set in different environments do not change the facts that even prolonged exposure to low levels of CO (30 PPM) can be harmful depending on your physical condition, age, etc.

Remember those standards are allowable levels, they are certainly not to be considered acceptable. Those of us who have been dealing with this for over 40 years want to see levels well below the standards. I for one would never leave a gas oven over 25 to 50 PPM in the flue, that is way below 800 PPM. In the same token a boiler or water heater at allowable 400 PPM is not acceptable for leaving equipment running, I want to see less than 100 PPM and I really work to get it below 25 to 50 PPM.

Have you followed my problem with the Utica Boiler. I would be interested in how you would deal with that problem????

Mark Hunt · January 2004

Hmmmmmmmm

"Little research" is in fact what you've done.

OSHA allows only 50ppm max for 8 hour exposure, and yes, I think that is too high.

As for salamanders, when was the last time you tested one?

You make a good point Bob, why are UNVENTED ovens still allowed to produce 800ppm?

Do a "little research" and come back and tell us.

Unfortunately, you represent the majority of PHVAC contractors in the USA.

I mean to change that.

Mark H

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Mark Hunt · January 2004

Here are some tests

that you can perform in a home that you work in.

The first is a "worst case depressurization" test. I have found this in the installation manual of EVERY water heater I have ever installed.

Close all the windows and doors in the home. You will be putting The house in a winter time condition.

Turn on every appliance or fixture that vents to the outdoors, this would include bathroom fans, clothes dryers, range hoods, etc.....

If there is a furnace or air handler, turn the fan on.

Now test for draft AND test combustion.

We use digital manometers with dual inputs to reference indoor pressure to outdoor. This gives us a "baseline" pressure. That is, with nothing on what is the "normal" pressure in the "Combustion Appliance Zone" (CAZ).

We then put the home in a worst case depressurization. Everything venting at once, and we watch what happens to the pressure in the CAZ. Sometimes it drops so low that atmospheric applinces CANNOT draft. Combustion products vent into the home because, as Dan H said, high pressure goes to low pressure ALWAYS.

Leaky return ducting on a forced air system can cause a low enough pressure to make atmospheric appliances spill combustion products into the home. Those combustion products will then be drawn into the air distribution system and delivered throughout the home. I have pictures of just such a case on our web site.

Remember, even if the combustion appliance you are testing is producing low levels of CO at the time of testing it doesn't mean everything is OK. Those levels could change two minutes after you leave. We are testing for draft and spillage, not CO levels at this point. If it spills while producing only 10ppm CO due to environmental conditions, it will also spill if the CO is 1000ppm.

Some of you have heard me talk about "stack effect". Simply stated, stack effect is this. Warm air rises and exits a structure near the top. Colder, denser air enters near the bottom. If you were to take a pressure reading at the top of the Empire State building referrenced to atmospheric pressure, you would find that it is higher. If you took another reading at the first floor referrenced to atmospheric, you find that it is lower. Do you know why they put revolving doors on those tall buildings? It wasn't to expedite traffic. Anyone that has ever passed through a revolving door knows that they are not designed for ease of passage. They were there for one reason. Pressure.

If you had doors that opened out toward the street at the bottom of a high building, ten men would not be able to push them open. If the doors opened into the building, ten men could not hold them shut. Pressure.

BTW, the revolving doors had to be "pressure balanced". If they weren't, they would spin like fans. When you pushed through one, atmospheric pressure was helping you.

Cool stuff this building science.

So any nasty thing that is light enough to float in your basement has a mode of travel through stack effect. This includes CO.

Now. Would opening a first or second floor window increase or decrease stack effect?

Mark H

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