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CO again
Comments
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CO again
Do you mean to tell me that someone does not do an analytical break down as to the exact root cause of the reason for CO Occurance resulting in death????.
You must be joking surely.
Who investigates for the Coroner?? This sort of thing should be public knowledge.
Our Energy Safety Service (ESS) investigate (well they pay someone to evestigate for them) and I have Booklets published yearly with all the Electrical accidents (& incidents)and all the gas accidents (& incidents) With the reasons why these occurances ocurred.
And while there are a couple of CO deaths nothing relating to furnaces, The nearest is a instantaneous multipoint water heater in a bathroom caused the death of a women in the bath.
(Bath room appliances have ben banned now for several years)
My local authority banned them over 25yrs ago when I first got my gas ticket.
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no one is culpable....
people are being misled and no-one wants to take the time. CO can be there for many reasons, sometimes little disturbances can have huge results in improper combustion. more people need to be aware and not need to moan about the written word. test and be sure !! WHY DO WE NEED TO CHOOSE SIDES!!
Murph'0 -
That's EXACTLY what I mean!
In fact Arthur, most of the time CO poisoning goes unnoticed or is misdiagnosed.
There is NO law ANYWHERE in the USA that requires ANY contractor to perform even the most BASIC testing. Subsequently, they don't.
No Coroner investigation. I kid you not. It's all just chalked up to one of life's little mysteries or tragedies.
Here in the USA, anyone can install their own furnace, boiler, or water heater. A gas stove can be purchased and installed by the homeowner. In fact, we tested a home about two months ago where the gas stove was producing 2000ppm+. The reason was, the store sold him a natural gas stove when he specifically told them he was connecting it to LP!. The "expert" told him it was ready to go and no modifications needed to be done. Well guess what?!?!?!?!?
Arthur, I test EVERY SINGLE HOME I ENTER. Do you have ANY idea how many systems I find that are just waiting to kill someone? You mentioned that in NZ you are not allowed to put return air ducts in the same area as the furnace. Good. That would cause a depressurization of the combustion appliance zone. Here in the good ole USA, YOU CAN PUT A RETURN RIGHT ON THE DOWN DROP!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Too much to get into here Arthur. I am glad that New Zealand has such tight codes, but I don't live there. And PLEASE do not think that a cracked HX can't or won't allow sufficient amounts of CO into a living space to kill people. They can.
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
Co Again & Again
Hi Mark.
Well said.
A) Here in NZ, Only quailified gas fitters are allowed to fit appliances on Nat gas and on LPG bottles over 10Kg (22lbs), Under 10kgs anyone can fit Provided they comply with the regs (lol), There are 3 qualifications, 1) Limited gasfitter who must work under the direct supervision of a craftsman G/f,2)a registered G/F who can work alone but can not take out a gas certification certificate, 3) a Craftsmans G/F who can supervise the limited g/f and take out a gas certification certificate, (taken out after you finish the work).
Every job should have a certificate otherwise the home owners insurance could be in doubt and the council need it for the compliance certificate on new homes.
A common problem I get 1-2 a month especially indians (we call them currymumchers not your red indians but from Fiji or India) They buy a gas hob fit it them selves with a 9kg bottle under the bench (some times with a doggy hose) then ring me a couple months later to say the bottom of their pots are going black straight away you know it's still got the Nat injectors fitted so I wizz around get the little plastic bag of injectors off them and change the injectors. $40 bucks.LOL.
C)The last set of certs I bought (Cost$25-00 each) has the question have you tested for CO box. There are 4 copies of the cert, 1 to the board, 1 to the H/O, 1 to the gas supplier, and a copy for the G/f, These are supposed to filed to the Plumbers,gasfitters & Drainlayers board within 10 days of the completion of the work LOL.
D) The goal posts are now changing and every G/F (as well a lot of other trades too) will soon have to undergo 20 hrs retraining every 2 yrs, This can be first aid, electrical limited cert, appliance courses, refreshers or any thing which has to do with making one more up to date in the field.
E) Before getting into gas fitting I fitted a lot of oil boilers/furnaces/consule. (I still do a bit of servicing to theses too) But there are no regs requiring the return air to be separate from the furnace as in Gas,
F) I have no problem with testing however conditions within the house can change and while it is ok when you test how do you know 1,2,30 days later that a bad suituation cannot develop. In my opinion cookers, hobs, unvented appliances are FAR far more dangeous than furnaces while admittedly cookers are only inuse for a short period of time and not over night like furnaces.
As I've said there is little point in blaming H/E if the cause was but say the return air systems. I've tested quite a few and never found one yet that was letting any CO into the home. I always warn clients about kitchen extract fans.
Every case of a incident of gas or elecrical occurance MUST be reported to the ESS who will investigate and analyse the cause, Then all g/f are circulated if there any new problems which can cause problems,
Gas Fitters who do bad installations or not complying with the NZSS can get their hands smacked,finded or disaplined.
We are supposed to be self certing but can get randomed inpections every 2 yrs.
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Note a possible cause.
'Crews say part of the danger is that the large amounts of snowpack on roofs could have blocked the furnace vents, trapping the exhaust inside homes'
Not a H/E
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detectors saves lives in pa.
heres a link : http://www.thewgalchannel.com/news/2730151/detail.html
Murph'0 -
Translating English into English
Arthur, I'm reading your posts with fascination... what is a "hob"?
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
maybe
a pol fitting ???
Murph'0 -
Hob
Steamhead,
A hob is just the top plate burner part, Sits in a bench top and has 4-6 burners. usually recesses in to the top of the bench. Our regs require the burner to be at least 200mm opps I mean 8" away from the back or side wall so the flame doesn't go sideways into the wall when a pot sits on top of the burner. You can overcome that by fitting a fireproof shield tiles are usually whats used.
We even have cooker with a gas top (hob) and a electric oven. Combined cookers?0 -
Another method of checking heat exchangers is spraying the outside with water while observing the combustion chamber for water penetration.0 -
Co Again & Again
Huummmm.
Not sure how you can get right around the H/E to enable one to spray water on it with out cutting away the outter casing. I know some have removable panels but a alot don't. Not easy especially when they can be in very tight spaces.
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Qualifications
> In fact Arthur, most of the time CO poisoning
> goes unnoticed or is misdiagnosed.
>
> There is NO
> law ANYWHERE in the USA that requires ANY
> contractor to perform even the most BASIC
> testing. Subsequently, they don't.
>
> No Coroner
> investigation. I kid you not. It's all just
> chalked up to one of life's little mysteries or
> tragedies.
>
> Here in the USA, anyone can install
> their own furnace, boiler, or water heater. A gas
> stove can be purchased and installed by the
> homeowner. In fact, we tested a home about two
> months ago where the gas stove was producing
> 2000ppm+. The reason was, the store sold him a
> natural gas stove when he specifically told them
> he was connecting it to LP!. The "expert" told
> him it was ready to go and no modifications
> needed to be done. Well guess
> what?!?!?!?!?
>
> Arthur, I test EVERY SINGLE HOME
> I ENTER. Do you have ANY idea how many systems I
> find that are just waiting to kill someone? You
> mentioned that in NZ you are not allowed to put
> return air ducts in the same area as the furnace.
> Good. That would cause a depressurization of the
> combustion appliance zone. Here in the good ole
> USA, YOU CAN PUT A RETURN RIGHT ON THE DOWN
> DROP!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
>
> Too much to get into
> here Arthur. I am glad that New Zealand has such
> tight codes, but I don't live there. And PLEASE
> do not think that a cracked HX can't or won't
> allow sufficient amounts of CO into a living
> space to kill people. They can.
>
> Mark H
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Contractor"_/A_
Funny how standards vary from country to country.
Here in NZ you have to be qualified to even look at a gas installtion, well almost.(see my earlier post)But any Tom, **** or Harry can install a oil fired heater and set it up.
While it seems in the US any Tom,**** or Harry can install gas but need to be qualified to do oil??
Funny hey.
Apologies to all the Tom,Dicks & Harry's on the this forum.0 -
Tom, ****, and Harry
they don't have computers Arthur!
In some states you are required to be liscenced to work on oil equipment.
We're working on getting things changed here.
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
Actually
The UL2034 standard at 30 ppm or less requires it not alarm for 30 DAYS!!
They aren't even allowed to display below 30 ppm, between 30 and 70 they can display but are prohibited from alarming.
What's worse is when you hit the 'test' button on a UL approved alarm, all it is required to do is test the electronics and the buzzer, not the sensor.....
The Gas Research Institute did a study on the Performance and 'Reliability of home CO Alarms'. They purchased 90 alarms from stores in San Fran and Chicago - found that 38% failed, brand new, right out of the box. Yet, when the 'test' button was pushed they responded as if they were working properly..... If you want to read the GRI study go to wwwcoexperts.com . There is a link from George Kerr's website to the report.
Go figure....0 -
Make this the biggest thread
I don't mean to trivialize "Bring back the Bean" but this should be our biggest thread ever on The Wall.0 -
trying to explain.....
to a customer yesterday why she was getting CO and yet her detector would not go off. (working in the bank 9 am to five pm). I printed the CO levels and what to do in case it alarms and sure enough the detector started to chirp within minutes of installing the batteries. I believe the landlord has sent in thier own company and said nothing was wrong with the funace!! NOT THE FURNACE, BUT THE SYSTEM !!! sometimes the bean counters do not get it!!
Lets be alert!
Murph'(HAPPY NEW YEAR)0 -
Arthur....
you remove the blower and motor assembly. Then you crawl inside and spray water up into the sections from below or you remove burners and spray from that side and look up inside the het exchanger from the blower compartment mto see if any water leaks through. The water with an infrared camera inspection is a no brainer for the customer they can see the water passing through the porous heat exchanger on the screen.
Camera inspections sell furnaces, two replacements and you have paid for the camera.0 -
New CO Alarm Law for Texas Day Care
New Carbon Monoxide Law Starts Soon, Another May Be On The Way
LAST UPDATE: 12/30/2003 8:21:59 PM
Posted By: Dale Blasingame
Watch this story...
A new law going into effect Thursday is intended to prevent carbon monoxide tragedies in day cares and living centers. Now, News 4 WOAI has learned that another carbon monoxide bill could soon be on the way.
Senate Bill 100 goes into effect Thursday. It requires day cares and family centers to have the carbon monoxide detectors in place. Now the law's sponsor, State Sen. Leticia Van De Putte, may have a second bill ready for the next legislative session. If it passes, carbon monoxide detectors would be required in all homes.
If you don't have a carbon monoxide detector in your home, they are sold at many stores in the san antonio area. They cost anywhere from $10 to $30.
http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=2F343C39-230D-4FEF-A3D5-853AA0E72D0B0 -
Beginning January 1, a new Mecklenburg County ordinance
Here's another new ordinance
Midnight marks onset of ordinance
12/31/2003 3:00 PM
By: Anjanette Flowers, News 14 Carolina
CHARLOTTE, N.C. Beginning January 1, a new Mecklenburg County ordinance will require carbon monoxide detectors to be installed in all private residences.
The change is scheduled to take effect at midnight. After that, homeowners and apartment complexes will be fined $50 if the detector is not being used.
According to authorities, carbon monoxide is the No. 1 cause of poison deaths in the United States which is why the ordinance was passed.
"Every type of dwelling, home, apartment, condominium needs to have a carbon monoxide alarm, in place and working," said Charlotte Fire Cpt. Rob Brisley.
County Commissioner Dan Ramirez initiated the ordinance during the winter of 2002 after some residents died because of carbon monoxide poisoning.
Ramirez said he wants people to take the new edict seriously.
"What I'd like to add is for everybody to be aware they have to have these carbon monoxide detectors and they will be facing a fine if they don't have it," the commissioner said.
"But more importantly, it is necessary to have to protect your children, protect your family, and protect your own life. It is mandatory and it is necessary."
Still, county leaders say the purpose of the ordinance is not to police residents, but to protect and educate the public.
"We want this to be an awareness and education type ordinance," said Brisley. "The fire department's not going out and knocking on doors saying, 'Where's your carbon monoxide alarm?'
"We're not going to be the police to try to insist that you have a carbon monoxide detector. We want to be the service that tells you, you need to have a carbon monoxide alarm and that insures that everybody's safe," he said.
Any homeowner or apartment complex that does not comply with the new regulation may be fined $50, along with a $10 a-day fee after the first five days.
The detectors can be purchased $20 to $50 at most home improvement stores.
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This is an indication that
towns and cities are becoming aware of the need to deal with CO.
Once you can get some politicians fired up then things get done.0 -
H/E Test
Hummm
You must not have the furnaces in the tricky positions that we have here in NZ, Some I've seen it would take the best part of a half a day to pull the fan assemby. From under a house with mimimum head room. It would be easier to take the thing right out. Not sure how this idea would work with oil furnaces were you cann't get at the inside of the combustion chamber so easy.
I think doing a pressure test differential on the C/C with and then with out the main fan will tell you just as much.
Admittanly with a furnace with a atmospheric burner won't be so easy.
iI would be reluctant to spray water around a furnace as this could cause more rust and worsen the problem.0 -
PLEASE POST THE PICS YOU TOOK!
This is a perfect example of how the untrained miss things folks.
Murph found it by getting nosey and applying the lessons he learned from Jim Davis.
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
Again
One of about 12 I've gotten since Christmas.
http://www.wcpo.com/news/2004/local/01/01/overcome.html
I'm bringing my Bacharach with me to Wetstock IV. We'll see if the hotel will let me in the mechanical room.
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
THAT IS ONE.....
Of the worst offenders, commercial establishments !! I know a few people that carry monitors with them all the time, maybe I'll invent a strap-on version of whats available now so all the "WARRIORS" can keep them with them all the time, perhaps a necklace hmmmmm........
(SOS)0 -
Last time Arthur
this thread is not about cracked HX's.
It's about testing for CO.
I have e-mailed you and I have posted here that media coverage is NOT conclusive as to the cause.
I have also posted pics of cracked HX's that did allow CO into the airstream.
Now answer my question,
Are you saying that a cracked HX poses no danger?
Mark H
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Cracked H/E Last time
What I'm saying is that in my experience with testing even on furnace that I know have leaking H/E I have not found one which had CO in the air stream.
You do not seem to have any analytical work don't on the cases that have been paraded as examples of leaking H/E causeing deaths, Now how can you or anyone else say that the h/e were the cause when there is no proof only suspicion, There are a lot more dangeous things than H/E.
ie Return air taken from the same area as the furnace combustion air,A leaking flue into an area which the return air could pick it up from.. Unvented heaters,
Over here in NZ we have had a couple deaths from CO in 2002 but not one from furnaces I get a booklet every year detailling the cases of electrical and gas related deaths, One was a lpg griller used as a heater on a farm cottage, another a instaneous water heater in a bath room,
Just to blame the h/e for the deaths when no one has done any
investigation in to what was the real cause is pointless.
The real cause needs to known before you try and panic people.
I sorry if you find I'm a nuisance because I don't agree with you but but I been around long enough to know everyone is intitled to their opinion, Perhaps you need to take a more mature look at life and not expect everyone to be a yes man then if you don't expect it you won't get annoyed by those who don't agree with you.
In the mean time have a happy new year and best wishes for this new year0 -
Arthur
I never said ANY of these instances were due to cracked HX's.
Some were water heaters, or space heaters, and some were furnaces or boilers.
I have found CO in the airstream of warm air furnaces, believe it or not. The testing equipment doesn't lie.
I have NO idea why you think that I am on some sort of "blame cracked heat exchangers" campaign. I am not.
This is a "TEST EVERYTHING" campaign.
I am glad the New Zealand has no CO deaths, God bless you!
Here the the USA there are CO deaths and I am trying to change that.
I do not care where the CO comes from Arthur. Do you understand that? Someone is dead Arthur. Did you read that in the story?
"Opinion" has nothing to do with this. Apparently you have missed the point.
Mark H
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Interesting discussion
with my doctor at the VA today. He is very interested in learning about CO from the detection and prevention side of things. He has had several episodes with mis diagnosis of CO as flu. I found his approach to this very refreshing and enlighting to say the least. He is very much in agreement as to the possible effects of low levels of CO on certain groups. He and I have agreed to get together again and also do some testing on his warm air system.
I am going to get him some CO Experts CO alarms.
It would be good to get some input from the medical folks on this subject. How about smoking and second hand smoke. The help at a restaurant I eat lunch at has convinced the owner to stop all smoking in the reastaurant. If you smoke try breathing into a plastic bag and then test what is in the bag for CO somewhere around 30 to 50 ppm. I just tested some water heaters and they only had 10 to 15 PPM. Hey a amoker is more dangerous than a water heater.0 -
Toxicology
Very few studies done on chronic exposure to CO.
http://www.coheadquarters.com/co01x.htm
I spoke to a woman today that, along with her children, had been exposed to CO leaking from a boiler for a few years. No-one tested and her "CO detector" would not sound an alarm at lower levels (under 100ppm).
She and her children all showed elevated levels of COHb, but she was informed that there are NO toxicologists in the immediate area that have experience with CO.
I tested her "CO detector" and it took 45 minutes to sound an alarm with CO at 475ppm.
She's getting a CO experts alarm.
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
Here you go Arthur!
cracked heat exchanger
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
WHY DID YOU NOT SAYE SO??!
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Again MH
Mark we need to stop with this CO thing. I went to a customers home this AM just to give an estimate on a boiler replacement nothing more. Get in Basement notice the brown and white stuff on the flue pipes. Place my hand under the draft hood it hot really hot Mark. Talk to HO they have had past problems with the chimney, they show me this damp/warm spot on the dinning room wall next to a closed fireplace, oh CO detector plugged in not 5 feet away.
So get the CO meter reading 80 at the draft hood with customer whole time, turn off boiler and H2O heater, be back run my promised calls return around noon pull the smoke pipe --you guessed it Mark chimney full of bricks now what call the chimney sweep, to many bricks for him to get out.
Now I get to meet the bricklayer in the AM to open chimney at each floor (3) and see what we can or can not work out. I am really get tired of this CO thing. Mark its screwed up my days now twice in one week.Better my days then my customers lives hey Mark.0 -
WYE DIDN'T YOU SAYE SO !!?
badd building pressure and flue doing a reverse draft
35 ppm near appliance
15 ppm in work area where customers frequent !!0 -
Jim
I hope and pray that you understand what you did today.
You saved lives. You REALLY did.
If we don't test who will?
Thank you very much for sharing this here Jim, and PLEASE keep me posted!
One system at a time!
Mark H
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Sure looks harmless
I see some rusting on the flue piping.
There's a Pizza parlor next door right? Big exhaust fans?
Mark H
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yeah the building was remodled last summer
during the remodel they had added some big exhaust hoods and ovens, there was a retail store there before and they never had a problem. I was there last year and shut down the equipment, explained the problem and left a bid to change furnace to sealed combustion. they approached the landlord who in turn called another HVAC company and the utility co. who give thier blessing and turned the furnace back on!! sheesh
Murph'(SOS)0 -
Your welcome Murph'
Your link works just fine.
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I would bet
a million dollars that YOU were the ONLY ONE that actually tested.
I had a similar situation that I posted about last year.
We installed a new 300k input steam boiler in an apartment building. There was also a fried chicken shop on the first floor.
The building code required that a "combustion air" grill be installed due to the gas input.
Well, there was NO WAY to get an opening to the outside, so the inspector wanted a grill cut into the basement door.
We proved that when the basement was connected to the first floor, the unit would backdraft due to the negative pressure caused by the exhaust hoods in the chicken shop.
We refused to install the grill.
What is going to happen next?
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
0
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