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CO again
Mark Hunt
Member Posts: 4,908
Google just keeps sending them my way.
<http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/atlantic/120703CARBON_07.html>
I imagine that not all CO stories get reported.
Mark H
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<http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/atlantic/120703CARBON_07.html>
I imagine that not all CO stories get reported.
Mark H
<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=238&Step=30">To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"</A>
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And again and again and again
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Tragic
Every day I get 3 like this.
Mark H
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/12022003_nw_co_deaths.html
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not only in homes
these latest incidents are all too frequent, and I fear that these will not be the last for the season.
What I observed today at a facility would not kill anyone, but, there is enough data about "low" level exposure to warrant mentioning. The warehouse had 2 LP fueled forklifts. My CO monitor showed abut 30ppm in the office and went up to over 175 in the warehouse. What I found was no outside air being brought in, no tailpipe monitoring during preventive maintenance (a requirement in Minnesota) and no quarterly environmental monitoring (also a requirement here). I am sharing this with you all because maybe you have a warehouse with a forklift or maybe you know someone who works in a facility that operates LP powered equipment. I know I would not want to spend my whole day exposed to that, and I don't think you would either. Tell a friend, spread the word, these exposures and tragedies need not occur.
I appologize for droning on but this is one of the safety issues I am always concerned about.
Larry0 -
Perfect Larry
This stuff will get you ANYWHERE.
I put myself on a Google news alert for ANY CO story that hits the media.
I'll be posting them as they come in.
Mark H
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Offer to test everything
when you do a service call.
Today I went to see a lady I'd worked for some years ago, her steam system was losing water. After fixing the obvious leaks (loose packing on radiator valves) I fired the boiler with the Testo hooked up. The boiler was running OK so I offered to test her stove while I was there............
The oven and griddle were both putting out over 1000 PPM!
Not any more.
And she was quite impressed with the Testo. For you Bacharach enthusiasts, I think she would have liked their digital units too.
Test Everything!
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Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!
Now hear this!
How many of you got kids going to school?!?!?!?!
Think they're safe?
Mark H
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/12032003_nw_school_co.html
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sleep good?
How many more?
This ain't a game.
The ignorance in our industry is killing people.
I ain't gonna' stop posting this stuff until it stops.
Testo and Bacharach have all the testing equipment.
It's gotta' stop guys. No reason for this.
Mark H
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sleep good?
How many more?
This ain't a game.
The ignorance in our industry is killing people.
I ain't gonna' stop posting this stuff until it stops.
Testo and Bacharach have all the testing equipment.
It's gotta' stop guys. No reason for this.
Mark H
http://www.kvia.com/Global/story.asp?S=1550046&nav=AbC0JT9y
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CO Levels
And I get questioned as a design engineer why I won't use direct fired Make Up Air units for commercial kitchen exhaust even though the Code allows it.....do I want be remembered as a guy who specified dumping flue gas on people?? I agree with the other post the ignorance in both the construction AND the design industry is atrocious and needs to be brought up a couple notches. Codes are a MINIMUM standard, and yet lots of folks see a "Code installation" as a high standard.0 -
Stoves are the worst I've seen
when it comes to excessive CO. The effects of this are much worse since a lot of stoves don't have exhaust hoods over them.
I understand AGA lets manufacturers test their burners for CO with the oven floor plate, griddle etc. removed. This is like tuning your car engine with the rear wheels (or front wheels on a front-drive car) jacked up. It has absolutely nothing to do with how these things are operated in real life. When is this going to change?
And even if CO weren't toxic, it is still a symptom of incomplete combustion. How much fuel have these CO-producing burners wasted?
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Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
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Consulting0 -
You said it!
800ppm is acceptable for an unvented stove while 400ppm from a vented boiler is cause for shut down.
You are right about the wasted fuel as well.
Mark H
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Don't apologize, Larry
Amazes me as well.
In the past 3 months I have been in 5 HVAC supply houses (with fork lifts in the warehouse) doing CO training.
When I unpacked the CO-Experts Monitor I use to demo the performance with UL approved alarms, it has gone off and we confirmed CO levels with a test instrument.
Ironic thing is that 3 of the 5 sell UL approved alarms and had one of the ones they sell on the counter, quietly sitting there ..
Also had it go off (in my luggage) in a hotel recently as I was walking down the hallway. When I got to my room and hit the recall button, it had recorded 60 ppm. Went back down to see what was going on and see some idiot in the ballroom with a propane powered floor buffer.
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Rudy an interesting
topic to say the least. LP gas operatd equipment in many areas that are definitely causing problems with CO.
As I get more involved with the LP industry I am alarmed at the lack of safety. Most companies do not test combustion or test for CO on any equipment. Many of them do not even have Combustible Gas Indicators and enter buildings that have a gas odor with no knowledge of the % of gas in the area.
Now I am sure this post will get response from evry LP company who does test. Thank God you do I am not talking to you or about you.
An example of this: I was speaking to a group of about 30 LP gas companies recently. I ask how many tested, only two of them did and interestingly they both also sold natural gas. All of th e straight LP dealers do not test. Boy do i have my work cut out for me.0 -
Can't get
the links to post?
http://www.whiotv.com/news/2689071/detail.html
Mark H
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c o
Steam head , awesome, just the fact that you do check evrthing . I do C O calls for local gas company> many times its due to faulty detectors > We only charge if the cause for the call is not C O caused by a gas appliance. First ,I usually find an attached garage . customer leaves for work - closes the garage door right away ,and traps all the co inside , works its way thru the house, 2-3 hrs later -detector takes off ! they come home and call us ! By the time I get their - no reads whatsoever! I check all appl; ovens are a culprit, the reads should be minimal after a warm up time- 99% are never checked after the install! an elderly couple - old cape house - tiny kitchen- complained always felt ill in a.m when having breakfast - couldn't find anything until we got talking, the old coffee pot -we got it out and made some coffee , flame impingement when burner opened full - had 2- 3oo ppm. now - go back , tiny kitchen , always closes door whenhaving breakfast , elderly , etc ! So , i congraduate you - always be willing to check all , eliminate all possibilities.Just one more, batteries being charged indoors with no ventilation , produces some kind of sulfuric reaction , which goes into atmosphere - will make co detectors go nuts - so be aware of wheel chair batteries , fork lift batteries etc ! its no C O but i'm quite sure its' not healthy either !0 -
It doesn't take much effort
to offer the customer CO tests. Most want them, especially after CO-related deaths nearby. And with a digital analyzer, the customer can see the results right on the screen!
On another job, we were there to replace a clogged wet return that was making a steam system bang. I offered to test and the owner, a judge, said "Definitely!". The boiler was a bit out of tune, but not making CO. The water heater was fine, as was the stove top and broiler. But the oven was over 1600 PPM- and it was only a couple of years old! I fixed that with a quick air-shutter adjustment.
Test Everything!
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Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
During the gas shortages in the late 70's our local gas works
installed thermally actuated (bi-metal) vent dampers on gas fired heaters and water tanks. They were made by the Ameri-therm company. They work for about 5 years then they stop openning. Our local gas works PGW (Phildelphia) requires that these be removed if the heater is replaced. This should be front page news that these devices should be removed at once!0 -
I have one of those
which has worked for about 10 years. I know of several others around here that are about that old and still working. Maybe there's a problem with the gas delivered in the Philly area?
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Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
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Consulting0 -
My Ameri-therm
one on furnace, one on the water heater. They have been on there for 22 years. I check them about once a month still opening all the way all the time. They were by the way the only thermal damper Providence Gas Company would allow on our lines.
I did all the testing on all the other models. The Ameri therm opened faster and closed faster than all the rest.
They are no longer made, reason - not enough of them sold to make it worth continuing production.0 -
Rudy
will I see you in columbus ohio tues @ palmer donavin? David
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Unfortunately...
Tried to email you, it came back undeliverable. Just talked to the PD folks and unfortunately the training for tomorrow has been cancelled. Hopefully we'll be rescheduling it for late January. There is another training I'll be doing in Columbus on Wednesday. If you don't want to wait, give me a call and I can give you the info. 740-594-0033/412-576-13500 -
A crusade
Mark:
Thanks for being a crusader -- I share your passion for the topic. When I was in college, two friends of mine died in their garage when they fell asleep in their car. I take each death personally.
Below is a link to a short article that appears in this week's News. If you are a subscriber, you can view it.
http://www.achrnews.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,1338,114251,00.html0 -
And the list continues...
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%7E33%7E1810323,00.html?search=filter
ME0 -
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Hey Mark (or anyone else)
Have you got any articles on CO poisining due to an oil fired unit for any reason? Theres a guy over on Oil Tech Talk that seems to think that Oil is so supperior to gas that it won't cause CO or allow CO into the building. If you do, please feel free to go to
http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=24736;article=32949;title=OIL TECH TALK
and go down to the posts from "anonymous" and leave the stories/articles for him. His attitude is a little dangerous to me.
Thanks, Glenn0 -
Glenn, get in touch
with George Lanthier (Firedragon) he will surely pass on to that person some good information about the fact that any fossil fuel will if not safely set up make Carbon Monoxide. There is a very definite misunderstanding among some oil and interestingly also LP gas people that Carbon Monoxide is only a natural gas issue. That is definitely not the case.0 -
Oil & CO
I was involved several years ago in a court case in Kodiak Alaska as an expert witness for plaintiff in a CO posioning case involving an oil fired furnace (mobile home, either a coleman or intertherm). The bottom of the flue and top of the heat exchanger had rotted out and a heating company had fixed it with duct tape (which of course burned off pretty fast). The defense brought in an "oil expert" (don't recall his name) who testified that combusted oil "Did Not Produce Any CO Whatsoever".
Plaintiffs won to the tune of a couple of million. Last I heard, it was in the State Supreme Court on appeal.
Pat0 -
Oil and CO
I do not have any articles, but I do have some pictures.
We tested this oil furnace during an Energy Audit. I had one Fyrite-pro in the flue and another in the supply duct.
As soon as the fan came on the CO in the duct went to 20ppm. End of test!
Anyone that would make such an ignorant statement about oil not producing CO has obviously NEVER tested anything.
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Duct Tape on a HX?
Just goes to show- we'll never hear it all!
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Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
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Consulting0 -
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Duct Tape
Yeah, pretty pathetic. I keep wondering where common sense kicks in. How do you teach that????
Still looking for answers. . . . . .
Pat0 -
Duct Tape???
Hey now, you guys are hitting pretty close to home here. Alaska must be the duct tape capital of the world. We fix our boats, planes, down garments, fishing poles, motorcycles, etc., etc. with the stuff. Although even here I've never heard of anyone being dumb enough to try repairing a furnace hx with it. Then again, there's this guy in town....0 -
Twisting a little into alot
Mark, I really think you are making mountains out of mole hills. There are very few co problems out. The boiler manufacturers simply would not put dangerous equipment out on the market and if training and testing was that critical it would be state mandated. It is great that your boss makes you test every job, but please spare us the dramatics.0
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