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CO again
Comments
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Glycol Bob
I am sure you a very knowlegeable concerning Carbon Monoxide at least I hope so.
Those of us who have a concern about CO are attempting to bring the mountains down to mole hills. The failure of techs in the field to do testing is the problem. The manufacturers send products out to be installed and in good faith hope that those who install and service them will install correctly, set-up correctly and instruct customers on the safe operation of their equipment. Those who service then have the responsibility to maintain that equipment at the level the designers built into it.
Carbon Monoxide is a real issue in this day and age of tighter homes and higher efficiency demands on equipment. Please further your education on this matter it may save some lives.
Mark Hunt is very passionate on this subject and rightfuly so. He has gone to the trouble to get himself and his company educated and in the forefront of dealing with this growing problem. His energy is refreshing to say the least.
As far as state mandates I find in my 43 years of dealing with all levels of government and regulatory agencies that this is an area that for some reeason is left wanting. If you stop and think about it the service side of our business is not very well regulated. In many areas you can service without a license. So the regulations are on the install side but after the install what do we do. It is also my experience that many installers are not as educated as some in this forum on many aspects of this business so we are attempting to educate those who would learn.
I would finish this with a question- do you test every piece of fossil fuel burning equipment on every job? If not you are endangering someones life. One incident is all it takes to snap our heads around. Having stood at a doorway to a house in my area many years ago and watch 4 children carried out on a stretcher dead was enough for me. I have been pushing education in this area ever since, now over 40 years, many times falling on deaf ears.0 -
Ok. You're right.
I wonder how "dramatic" this funeral will be?
http://www.pennlive.com/newsflash/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-10/1071506043305510.xml
BTW, I am the boss.
I'll stop testing when they pull my Fyrite-Pro from my cold, dead, stiff hands.
Til' then.
Mark H
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Yeah,
> I wonder how "dramatic" this funeral will
> be?
>
> http://www.pennlive.com/newsflash/pa/index.
> ssf?/base/news-10/1071506043305510.xml
>
> BTW, I
> am the boss.
>
> I'll stop testing when they pull
> my Fyrite-Pro from my cold, dead, stiff
> hands.
>
> Til' then.
>
> Mark H
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Contractor"_/A_
0 -
Yeah,
but I bet they still couldn't pull that beer out.
Keep on testing.0 -
Beer?
Dewars man!
Right on Jack!
Mark H
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Sorry Glenn!
My site was messed up.
No stories, but I have pics.
HX cracked, oil HAF, CO in the supply stream.
Testing equipment doesn't lie.
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Sorry Glenn!
My site was messed up.
No stories, but I have pics.
HX cracked, oil HAF, CO in the supply stream.
Testing equipment doesn't lie.
http://www.comforthometech.com/killer_furnace.htm
Mark H
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That looks just like a Magic Chef ...
I condemned last year
. Thanks for the pic.
Glenn0 -
Mountains out of Molehills???
Glycol Bob,
Curious - how many deaths does it take to make this a serious matter in your eyes?
You state: "There are very few co problems out."
How do you arrive at that conclusion? Do you test? Or are you basing that assumption purely on the number of fatalities and hospital cases reportedly caused by CO poisoning? Do you know how many homes have excessive levels of CO and are causing symptoms other than death or disability? Are you aware that the effects of CO are cumulative, and even non-lethal levels can eventually cause problems?
You further state: "The boiler manufacturers simply would not put dangerous equipment out on the market and if training and testing was that critical it would be state mandated."
Let's look at an industry that is closely watched by various government agencies, has its product tested by government mandate, and is forced (by government edict) to develop newer and better technology to burn hydrocarbon fuels cleanly and efficiently - the automotive industry:
You can take any manufacturer's latest model, certified to the highest EPA, CARB, or any European standards, and you will find it produces CO. Is that CO dangerous? Would you be willing to spend a few hours in a closed garage with the engine running? Any piece of equipment that burns (oxidizes) hydrocarbon fuels can produce lethal concentrations of CO due to improper installation, improper maintenance, malfunction of its operating systems, or a combination of any of these. No, they are not inherently dangerous when manufactured, but through any of several means they can become that way. Who is to discover that they have become dangerous? Do you wait until someone dies and then say "Well, I guess we'd better check that furnace/boiler/burner/heat exchanger/etc."? And to say that if testing were "that critical" it would be state mandated - I don't know what state you live in, but it is not one of the 50 I'm aware of. There are local and state agencies in most areas that, every heating season, will air ads recommending CO detectors in homes. That is akin to recommending louder horns to prevent automobile accidents. I hope it doesn't take a death in your family or in your neighborhood to make you look at this "mole hill". I think of it more as an iceberg - we're only seeing about 1/8 of it. There's 7/8 that's hidden, until we actively look for it.0 -
molehills
moles make small holes.
These twins will be buried in small boxes.
Makes me sick.
I know of no state code anywhere that requires contractors to test specifically for CO the equipment they install. Even if there was, they would not have to test existing equipment. Even if everything passed a "natural" condition test, how many contractors would bother to put a home in a worst case scenario to see what happens then?
There are warning labels on cigarette packs about Carbon Monoxide. When was the last time you heard of a CO death caused by a cigarette?
If anyone asks me what the most important tool I own is, my answer would be my Fyrite analysers.
I have only been posting the CO deaths that were caused by PHVAC equipment, but I get one or two a day where some other source was to blame. Gas generators account for quite a few, followed by cars and space heaters.
Glycol Bob, whoever that is, sadly represents a majority of our industry. They wear their ignorance like a badge.
Meanwhile, there are two little babies that will not be waking up this Christmas morning. There is a Mom and a Dad that will not be taking pictures of their childrens FIRST Christmas. A Grandma and a Grandpa that will have to cradle THEIR "babies" and try to explain why the little ones are gone. Somehow I hear God getting the blame for this.
We have "child proof" caps on poison, yet CO accounts for 90% of the "accidental" poisoning deaths in the USA. Go figure.
I wish that this will be the last CO story link that I will ever post, but I know it will not.
Like the Energizer Bunny, they just keep going, and going, and going....................................................
http://www.ktsm.com/news/story.ssd?c=e66e3ba4a20a4969
Mark H
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High CO from an oil burner
can be caused by something as simple as a bad nozzle.
I had one yesterday- old National Heat Extractor A-406 steamer (3000 square feet!) with an ABC-Sunray HC-34. This piece of heating history is in an old factory that's being converted to a recovery house for people who are trying to straighten out their lives.
The flame looked horrible and the Testo was going nuts. After a badly needed brush-and-vacuum the flame looked much better, but I still couldn't get it to burn clean, and the CO was over 7000 PPM. Had to ride across town to get the right nozzle (those Sunrays are definitely different) but once the new one was in it tuned right up. Zero smoke, CO 119 PPM, CO2 a bit low but it probably has some air leaks, which I'll trace out when I have the time. Main thing was to get the heat on, safely!
Thanks to Alan Mercurio for taking over the "Just for Teks" page, which has the HC-34 setup info on it and a whole lot more.
Test Everything- including oil!
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Consulting0 -
\"Very Few CO Problems\"?
Obviously you're only counting the ones that make the news. ANY flame can produce CO if not burning properly. The ONLY way to verify that a burner is not producing CO is to TEST IT, FACT!
Do yourself and your customers a favor, Glycol. Go out and spend some money for a Testo, Bacharach or other good digital combustion analyzer. Then bring it home and test your boiler or furnasty, your water heater, your stove and any other gas- or oil-fired equipment you have. I'll bet at least one is producing way more CO than it should. I regularly see gas ovens over 1000 PPM- occasionally I get one over 2500!
Then get a copy of Tim McElwain's "Fundamentals of Gas" manual, which has an excellent chapter on CO.
Then go to one of Tim's seminars where he will make sure you know why CO is bad and how to eliminate it.
Then maybe you'll be able to do the right thing.
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Consulting0 -
Bacharach meters
Not to interrupt the harangue (sp?) but I'd like to bring this back to a technical question for a moment. My company uses Bacharachs, and there's some conflicting info on their use and maintenance there. First question: how often do they require calibration? Second, can the operator use the zero screw, or is this a calibration-only adjustment?
My background and education is electronics and electronic test equipment, and within this environment we had a much better understanding of these functions for our equipment.
Finally, a comment. I noticed my Bacharach gets stupid just BEFORE the battery indicator comes on. Is this common?
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Dave, feel free to get in touch with me regarding the calibration and "zeroing" questions you have.
And I've seen a couple of Fyrite Pro's act up right before the 'low bat' indicator comes on. (Get "stupid" is worded a little strong - how about get "dazed and confused"!!)
My understanding is that this is due to varibility in different manufacturer's battery performance and a delicate balance between extended battery life vs the 'low bat' light coming on.
Always use the best quality batteries - I'll check with engineering and see if they have any 'personal recommendations' or other suggestions.0 -
Close call!
Raise your hand if you test.
Mark H
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031218.wubaby18/BNStory/National/
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I've
seen that same scenario in my fyrite Pro 125. I 'll be interested to hear the reccomedations on batteries. I was using Duracells when I got the funny readings. Goes to show though still have to trust your instincts !!!0 -
Mark I did my part today
I was impressed with the extent of your trying to save lives through knowledge. Any way I was on the phone with a radiant heating contractor in the Midwest. As an aside, I asked him if he routinely did CO test when he or his service techs were on a call. He said no. I then told him why I thought he would be doing his customers a great service and how good he would feel if he saved just one life. I think I got his attention, but I did try. I told him I thought it would make him look more professional in the eyes of his customers. That alone was a reason to do it.
It is interesting that he then related a story to me about being called out on a family death due to CO. He was called in by the police doing the investigation.
I have no idea whether he will institute such a program, but it just seems to me to be a good business practice. And he may save someones life.0 -
So close to Christmas
and here is another child that is gone.
http://www.cumberlink.com/articles/2003/12/22/news/news03.txt
To all of you that have e-mailed me regarding CO, I promise that I will respond. We are very busy right now and I want to be able to give you the attention and detail that you deserve.
I do not know how many people have died this year from CO, but it is more than there should have been.
Please folks, please, please, please..
Get trained, get testing.
Mark H
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CO emssions
almost anything that contains carbon when combusted can produce CO. it could be "anything with carbon" but I only got a "c" in chemistry so I'm not sticking my neck out.0 -
CO
Here in NZ we are not permitted to have the return taken from the same area that the gas furnace gets its air from, This prevents the back draft from the fire (if the flue got blocked for example) being sucked into the air getting into the occupied areas.
With oil there was not this requirement but this does cause a problem when one does a oil to gas converstion as we have to sometimes put a remote return system in.
I am abit puzzled as to why a cracked H/E is all that much of a worry as the main fan always blows at a much higher pressure than the combustion fan so any leakage is from the main airways into the combustion area. I don't see this as a great problem appart from the fact that the combustion fire will then have a lot of dilution air and you won't be able to get a good efficency. But I don't see it as dangerous. Sure there may be a slight leakage the other way in the period between the fire starting and the main fan starting but this will soon be diluted once the fan starts.
A couple weeks ago I had some work to do a 300,000 BTU oil furnace in a glasshouse, I fitted a new burner and got it going, Then while trying to do a test on the combustion the main fan came on. There was so much air from the fan that I couldn't even look in to the inspection door as there was such a blast out the door. I took a CO test on the air coming out several of the outlets from the ducting and couldn't even get a CO reading at all.
Of course the efficency was all up the pole as the dilution of air was cooling the flame temp down. However the point I'm making is there was/is no danger to any one working in the glasshouse while the furnace was operating.
While it's not desirable for the H/E to leak I don't see the danger in it.There would have been no build up of CO as this would be going up the flue to dicharge out side.
I have looked at all the site posted and nowere did I find any one getting poisioned by CO Because of a leaking H/E. Blocked/faulty flues yes, Inadequite ventilation yes. Flumes coming back in the window ETC But none because of a leaking H/E.
One of the main reason we get problems now we didn't get years ago is modern houses are so air tight with Alumimum joinery concrete floors compared with the older homes with wooden joinery.
Stoves must be one of greatest dangers as quite often kitchen extract fans lower the air in the room for combustion causing lack of oxygen to the gas flame.
However this is my opinion what does every one else think? Opinions or facts. please0 -
Any CO training in Great Lakes area soon?
I'd like to get some first-hand knowledge of what type of training is available -- to report to our News' readers. Does anyone know of any CO training soon in the Michigan-Ohio-Indiana area (Columbus soon?)
Thanks!0 -
If the flue gets blocked
and the HE is cracked, the flue gas will come out the crack into the air stream where it will go thru the ducts into the house. I agree this is less likely if the flue is working as it should, but it can still happen. We've had plenty of cases making the news where it did happen.
Why take the chance? If there's any evidence that the HE is cracked, replace that furnasty immediately.
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CO again
Do you mean that because of a cracked H/E the CO in the house went up? I would think it would be because of other causes. I mean when you look at it the fan on a gas or oil burner is pretty small compared to the size of the main fan so which is going to blow at the higher pressure. If the flue is blocked that another matter but don't blame the H/E for that,
If the flue on an oil burner blocks up it can smoke out into the room and this is why the return should be taken from a separate area. Same with the older gas furnacs but the newer type with rollout switches this is not as likely.
What we should be more concerned about is were the return air into the furnace is ducted from.
Yes efficency wise we should replace/repair the H/E but not because of safety. Safety and efficency are separate areas and to sell a new furnace claiming a safety issue when the problem is an efficency issue is dishonest.
Please provide some documented evidence on cases where people have be affectted by a cracked H/E WITHOUT side issues like blocked flues etc.0 -
John, I just looked at the N.C.I. Schedule,
and Jim Davis is bringing his 2 day CO and combustion class to Indianapolis Jan 19-21, and Lansing MI Jan 26 - 28. Check it out at http://www.ncinstitute.com/Seminars.htm#Schedule
Merry Christmas, Glenn.0 -
Arthur, in general, you are correct.
A cracked HX will only leak CO before the blower comes on, but you can also have the blower push the CO back out the burner openings, and could cause flame rollout, which if severe enough could have flames coming out of the furnace cabinet. Now I'm refering to a natural draft gas furnace. A modern day induced draft gas furnace would have a very hard time leaking CO due to the negative pressure in the HX, but again you will have flame rollout which will hopefully trip the rollout safties. The ultimate thing to keep in mind is that there is a whole lot of "could happens" in my statements, however, since these things "could" happen, why take the chance of anything happening? A crack in a HX is a non design defect of the equipment, that warrants replacing the HX or furnace to prevent a problem. And I don't know about NZ, but here the lawyers will eat you alive if you didn't take appropriate measures to prevent a tragedy. So as Steamhead said, why take a chance. Condemn it at get it replaced. After all, it is our jobs to protect our customers from any dangers that there equipment could create, or at least that's how I feel.0 -
Thanks Glen
I'll try to make it to Indy. The Lansing class is the same time as the ASHRAE/AHR Expo in Anaheim (I'd rather stay home and visit Lansing!).
John0 -
CO & Heat Exchangers
It is important right up front to do a thorough inspection of the heat exchanger to determine if there is a hole or crack. There are two recommended methods in use today:
1. The use of an Infrared Inspection Camera
2. A tracer gas technique
It is a misconception that a cracked heat exchanger causes CO. Cracked heat exchangers do not cause CO. A cracked heat exchanger causes the gas and secondary air mix to be changed, typically making the mixture too lean; this would actually reduce CO. [Either]:
* More air is pulled into the combustion chamber; or
* More air is pushed into the chamber
It is my experience that CO problems on hot air, hot water, steam systems and also water heaters are caused primarily by insufficient air for combustion and operating the equipment in contaminated environments. The other cause is internal pressure changes in the building caused by exhaust fans, fireplaces, etc. In all cases, this usually casues recirculation of products of combustion (carbon dioxide), which in turn "quenches" the flame. The resultant CO can then be distributed very easily by the warm-air system because of its ducts entering into the living spaces, the blower door being loose, ducts not sealed properly, etc. Include in that the taking of air for combustion from the same room as return air, which by the way should never be done and most codes forbid it.
The cracked heat exchanger can, however, cause a change in flame stability. This will, in turn, cause the flame to impinge on the cooler heat exchanger surface. This will cause carbon deposits and eventually CO, usually accompanied by a pungent odor called aldehyde.0 -
No problem, John.
You won't regret going, I can assure you of that.
You could also e-mail Rudy Leatherman of Bacharach Training and see what he has going on. He's at rudy@eurekanet.com0 -
Cracked HX
There are furnaces, Lennox Pulse, that have positive pressure heat exchangers. In those instances CO can be pushed into the air stream.
As for no record of cracked HX's killing people I would tell you this. What makes you think that the people that went back to look at a "problem furnace" knew what the heck they were looking at?
I know of a recent incident where a woman and her two children died from CO poisoning and the source was a furnace that had a cracked HX.
She had called a service company to look over her heating system and the service tech found a crack in the HX. He told her that she should replace the furnace. She then called another company for a second opinion. That service tech said that the HX was fine. So she called the utitlity for the tie-breaker. Utility guy said the HX was fine.
A few weeks later she and her kids were DEAD.
You are not the first person to say that they could find no record of a cracked HX allowing CO into a home and causing a death.
Well I can't find many contractors that would even test to begin with. So I DO NOT trust what I read when it comes to CO unless I know the source. Local PHVAC contractors in my area test NOTHING! When there is a CO death here the news reporters will contact the "expert" that spends the most advertising dollars with their station/paper. That person usually spews forth some babble about how dangerous CO is. DUH!!! The fact is that if you do not test, you do not know and most don't test. What does that tell ya'?
Mark H
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Common mistake
Read this article.
No-one died, thank God, but notice that the CO levels were STILL ELEVATED despite the windows and doors being open.
I can tell you why.
Interested?
http://www.wcfcourier.com/articles/2003/12/26/news/top_news/1e24e54ec48354dd86256e08005fee7e.txt
Mark H
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But it was fixed!!!!!
Here's a link that shows just how EASY it is for an "expert" to kill people.
It is obvious that they STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEM IS!
The HO was smarter than the "expert" and CO detector worked.
It's all fun and games until somebody dies.
http://www.amestrib.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=2035&dept_id=238095&newsid=10719017&PAG=461&rfi=9
Mark H
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Definatley watch those pulses!
I just had one yesterday that would not hold any pressure with pressure test, and was leaking 3 to 7 parts CO into the air stream, and that was with the blower running.
That must have been one heck of a crack in that unit to have killed people. Have you got any more info on that one, Mark?
Also, you just showed why not to trust the Utility companies opinion on cracks (sorry Timmie). I have had a couple of situations where a customer would call the gas co. for a second opinion, and the tech's said that if I had not shown them the cracks, they would not have gone looking for them and would have only tested for CO in the flue and the air stream. No CO in air stream, and acceptible levels in flue, units would have been ruled O.K.0 -
US STANDARDS
at 30ppm CO, the alarm must not activate for at least 8 hours
at 70ppm CO, the alarm must not activate before 60 minutes but must
activate before 240 minutes
at 150ppm CO, the alarm must not activate before 10 minutes but must
activate before 50 minutes
at 400ppm CO, the alarm must not activate before 4 minutes but must activate before 15 minutes
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT??
Murph'0 -
CO from H/E
Mark,
1) The Dewars, Nowere in that article did it say the cause of the co was a crack in the H/E. 'The carbon monoxide APPEARED to come from the furnace area, Donohue said. Mid American energy was called to evaluate the problem' Could have been a faulty flue or flue gas getting into the return who knows lets not blame the H/E until we know for sure.ok
2) The Sauceda's 'The leak apparently came from a pipe connected to the furnace' A pipe? A strong gas smell a few days before Christmas? again lets not blame the H/E until we know for sure.ok
3) Kaya Schunemans, 'It was not clear Saturday where the gas originated in Kays's home, Again lets not even blame the furnace or H/E until we know for sure that they even had one and then what was the cause.ok
I absolutely fail to see how the flue gas/combustion gas can get into the main air stream when the main fan blows at a lot more pressure than the combustion fan, with these new induced fan burners now it is much more likely to for the main air to be 'sucked' into the flue.
I have tested several and each one the CO into the main air has been absolutely nil, 0, nothing,
I admit it is not desirable as it stuffs up the combustion by diluting and cooling the flame temperature but thats another matter.
As I've said before and fire Chief Donahue says 'The newer houses are built they are so airtight, they really need to invest in in a carbon monoxide detector,too.'
As I've said before the return air must not be taken from an area where the furnace is or were the furnace fire gets it's air supply from.
As I said before please supply a documented case with proof that the CO caused the problem by getting into the air stream from a crack in the H/E, Not by a flue or other unrelated cause.
0 -
That
makes these alarms totally useless.
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Consulting0 -
My point Arthur
is that unless someone who KNOWS what they are doing performs the testing, we will probably NEVER know what the real problem was.
All we ever get from news stories are quotes like "faulty furnace" or "problem water heater".
Are you suggesting that cracked HX's pose no threat?
I did not start this thread to expose cracked HX's. I wanted to let contractors and homeowners know just how common CO poisonings are.
I don't care WHERE it comes from sir, I just want people aware of the FACT that it does occur.
Are you required in NZ to test for CO on the equipment you install or service? Do you test even if you are not required?
The last link I listed about a 15 year old girl mentions NOTHING about the CO source. The reason for that is because NO ONE KNOWS! The reason that NO-ONE KNOWS is because NO-ONE KNOWS how to test for ANYTHING! So because the HX was not SPECIFICALLY listed as the source it must not be the source? Do you not see sir the level of ignorance concerning CO in the heating industry? Do you think that the Fire Department should be the CO experts? They don't get called until someone is dead.
What point are YOU trying to make?
Here in the USA, CO accounts for 90% of the accidental poisoning deaths every year. Could be from a furnace, water heater, wood stove, anything that burns. I DO NOT CARE IF IT WAS A CRACKED HX. I can show you pictures of cracked HX's that WERE allowing CO into the airstream. We found them by TESTING. Get it? TESTING! Those people did NOT become a statistic BECAUSE WE TEST!
Perhaps you missed my intention here, so I will restate it.
IF YOU DON'T TEST, YOU DON'T KNOW.
Do you test Arthur?
Mark H
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15 year old girl
dead from CO.
http://www.kare11.com/news/news-article.asp?NEWS_ID=57309
Mark H
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This discussion has been closed.
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