Why I don't like SS Flex supplies...

Mad Dog_2

I definitely hit a nerve with this topic.  I'll double-down: Why would you want to put your name on something that you have to even think about changing every 10 years or whatever you said??  It makes ZERO sense. You put in a Hard connection, you're worry free for 5 times that time period.  Copper speedies don't just let go and blowout like a flex hose.  I like to put something in today that hopefully your GRANDCHILDREN won't have to replace.  I build for 100 years and hope it makes it that long.  Too many guys want the quick, fast, and dirty  way out. I get it.  You gotta make 💰 Money.
It only takes another 5 minutes or less to do a Solid Speedy...and I don't have to worry about it again..It's the dumbing down and the cheapening of ours skills and trade. I could teach A Chimp to put on a SS flex.  Can't we do a little better than that???  as Professionals??? Just sayin.....Mad Dog 

ethicalpaul

Take a breath Mad Dog, I never used the word reckless. I think you are taking a reply to my post as my words, so read it again fellow HH forum user.

If you think that nothing should be thought about once it's been thought about for awhile, then we will have to disagree. That's OK.

And for the 10th time, I never said the Equalizer shouldn't exist, I just question that it equalizes pressure or does anything to keep water in the boiler during normal operation as is/was common knowledge in the industry (it does not).

GGross

@Mad Dog_2
"You don't need no stinkin' equalizer!!!! ...I know more than The Deadmen and Engineers of yesterday !!!"

@ethicalpaul never said anything even remotely close to this. It is not kind to put words in other peoples mouths and then chastise them for the words you used. This is some facebook level stuff going on here

Solid_Fuel_Man

Everything fails. 

Do I use flex lines? No. I use the Gray Merflex PEX lines. Cut to fit, and easier to find than chrome hard line. 

Made in USA too. That is important to me. 

Less than $2 each..... 

leonz

I recently replaced the single valve Moen bathroom faucet after 12+ years as it was leaking and I replaced it with a 2 valve Delta faucet. I reused the stainless braided hose that I installed the Moen faucet with.
My water pressure is set at 20 low 40 high on my pressure switch as I use a drilled well and a diaphragm tank storage tank.

I planned on using high pressure stainless braided hose exactly like the ones I have on the front loading washing machine and under the kitchen and bathroom sinks for my domestic coil on my coal stoker as the plumbers I hired 8 years ago made a mess of things and the propress fittings they used for my domestic coil blew apart in the middle of the night and drained my well dry and there was huge mess in my laundry room.

I will be using a lead free soldered 3/4 inch hose connection for the copper hot and cold piping leading to the domestic coil and high pressure laundromat quality stainless steel braided hose for the domestic coil connections and use lead free bronze nipples, and male garden hose fittings to mate with the braided hose.

My only question is where is it best to install the hot water diapraghm tank? I am leaning toward installing it after the mixing valve.

mattmia2

On the cold inlet to the hot water tank so it can absorb the expansion of the water being heated in the tank but isn't exposed to the hot water. Unless you are using a recirculation pump and have a check valve on the feed to the tank or otherwise have something between the well tank and the DHW tank like a pressure reducing valve, you don't need a DHW expansion tank.

leonz

Thank you mattmia2

Mad Dog_2

I agree Solid Fuel Man.  I like those better than SS braided hoses because they are more pipe like (thickness-wise).  Made in USA 🇺🇸  👌 is always my first choice,  irrespective of price.  My Wolverine Brass Dealer says I'm one of only 3 of his hundreds of customers left on all of Long Island 🏝 that still uses the Made in USA Ball valves..Dont care if I'm the last.  Mad Dog 🐕 🤣 

mattmia2

Didn't those used to be polybutylene?

Mad Dog_2

Maybe. PB.....To reply to a comment above about pin holes in Copper: We have certain areas of Long Island 🏝,  Garden City for example, that had a really bad problem (Epidemic) with pin holes in copper domestic water piping in homes and buildings.  It wasn't "BAD" copper, it was bad electricial grounds & bonding issues of the electricial supply.  The other BIG downside of ANY plastic water supply is HOW DO YOU THAW OUT a house or frozen building?? Pipe thawing machine?? USELESS.  Mad Dog 

Mad Dog_2

Oh yeah..PVC is Legal for water service lines in NYS and other parts of the country.  Mad Dog 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

Maybe. PB.....To reply to a comment above about pin holes in Copper: We have certain areas of Long Island 🏝,  Garden City for example, that had a really bad problem (Epidemic) with pin holes in copper domestic water piping in homes and buildings.  It wasn't "BAD" copper, it was bad electricial grounds & bonding issues of the electricial supply.  The other BIG downside of ANY plastic water supply is HOW DO YOU THAW OUT a house or frozen building?? Pipe thawing machine?? USELESS.  Mad Dog 

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/159535/pin-holes-in-copper-pipes-long-island-ny

Does not happen with pex or polyethelyne.

jumper

Time is much more $$$ nowadays than olden days when we cut and bent supply and waste precisely.

Mad Dog_2

I'm all for speed and maximizing efficiency and profit, but once you use the neat little tubing bender a few times, you become very adept, proficient and FAST.  A Chrome Plated  Solid copper 3/8" supply tube can be measured, bent and cut ✂️ and tightened up in less than 2 minutes.  I have always been a believer in trying to differentiate myself from the pack..Runs in my fambly.  Reading Dan's books and articles, and coming up in the trade with Richie English and Jimmy The Gent Burke, We all had that philosophy to be a cut above, go further than anyone else would, set and live the Gold Standard.  I have found that I am sought out BECAUSE of these high standards. Its a great selling point and the strainer I use to weed through potential clients, the ones who WANT well above average. With the SS Flex supplies versus the Solid supply, I can easily contrast the difference for them. They always choose the superior option.   Mad Dog

hot_rod

Mad Dog_2 said:

Maybe. PB.....To reply to a comment above about pin holes in Copper: We have certain areas of Long Island 🏝,  Garden City for example, that had a really bad problem (Epidemic) with pin holes in copper domestic water piping in homes and buildings.  It wasn't "BAD" copper, it was bad electricial grounds & bonding issues of the electricial supply.  The other BIG downside of ANY plastic water supply is HOW DO YOU THAW OUT a house or frozen building?? Pipe thawing machine?? USELESS.  Mad Dog 

I thought the chemicals in Garden City water were the cause of pinholes. And health issues?

https://patch.com/new-york/gardencity/contaminants-found-garden-citys-drinking-water-report

Solid_Fuel_Man

mattmia2 said:

Didn't those used to be polybutylene?

Says they are PEX-C, buuuuut they have a definite 80s vibe with the gray. They look like PB. I've yet to have one fail, very thick walled. I do use chrome plated copper where you can clearly see that it needs to be bent and will look neater. The gray plastic are my go to for under sinks and most WC installs which are relatively straight. 

What I like about them other than the cut to length is the self sealing of the tapered end and the little pressure it takes on the compression nut for them to seal. 

They are sold under several brand names, but careful inspection shows they are made by Merflex, which is Mercury Plastic. Curiosity got me about a decade ago, and I looked into their website. I found they makes all sorts of plastic tube and custom fittings for plumbing, automotive, and other industries. 

I am not affiliated, or being paid for this!!! Although....I'd take a commission if they are looking???? 😆 

https://www.mercury-plastics.com/plumbing-connections/

Mad Dog_2

I've seen that report.  Those chemicals are NOT good for your kidneys, liver, nervous system, brain, et al.  Did I miss something in that article? 
Where does it say those chemicals cause pinholes in copper tubing?  I live less than a mile from Garden City and our wells pull from adjacent & some of the same aquifers.
Why doesn't my town Floral Park and Other surrounding towns of Garden City Franklin Sqaure, New Hyde Park, Mineola have the 
Inordinate amount of pin hole leaks in copper tubing that Garden City Seems to have?  I've worked on replacing this pin hole riddled piping for many years.  I've talked to The Electrical utility guys and electricians.  Improper grounding is the cause.  Did the builders and original electricians install the systems wrong?  Perhaps....Don't know, but this is what guys in the know, have told us. Long Island 🏝 certainly has its share of contaminated drinking water like The Grumman Plume under Dan's Old House in Bethpage and my in laws in North Seaford...just South of Bethpage.  Everyone is well aware and it is being dealt with.   Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2

Plastic is a great invention, but I'm not sure how great it is for storage and conveyance of potable water.  "They" tell us not to drink the water of out plastic water bottles that have sat in your hot car and had the sun hitting them.  That's not too comforting....Mad Dog 🐕 

DJD775

Mad Dog_2 said:

Plastic is a great invention, but I'm not sure how great it is for storage and conveyance of potable water.  "They" tell us not to drink the water of out plastic water bottles that have sat in your hot car and had the sun hitting them.  That's not too comforting....Mad Dog 🐕 

@Mad Dog_2 The main source of water that I actually drink at home is the water piped into the refrigerator. In that case it is impossible to avoid plastic supply lines as you are probably aware. I'm not saying you are wrong or right in regard to the use of plastic but that it is hard to avoid in some situations.

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

Plastic is a great invention, but I'm not sure how great it is for storage and conveyance of potable water.  "They" tell us not to drink the water of out plastic water bottles that have sat in your hot car and had the sun hitting them.  That's not too comforting....Mad Dog 🐕 

Cooking a water bottle in a car at 160F+ in direct sunlight isn't the same as using plastic for potable water lines underground and in homes. Not to mention it can also cause problems with bacteria etc that came from your mouth.

Where are you getting your ball valves that contain no plastic?


All of that said, I'm not understanding how grounding issues cause pinholes in copper piping so I'm hoping someone that understands the subject better than me can chime in. @Jamie Hall @mattmia2 any opinions?

GGross

@ChrisJ

Here is a report I found, by all means check some more sources as well. Pipe failure due to electrolysis, while not too common in my region has definitely run its course in many areas

https://www.marineplumbingservice.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Pin-hole-leak-in-copper-piping.pdf


copper development association says it doesn't happen like the report says, so pick your favorite I guess?

https://copper.org/applications/plumbing/techcorner/electrolysis_cause_copper_tube_fail.php

ChrisJ

GGross said:

@ChrisJ

Here is a report I found, by all means check some more sources as well. Pipe failure due to electrolysis, while not too common in my region has definitely run its course in many areas

https://www.marineplumbingservice.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Pin-hole-leak-in-copper-piping.pdf


copper development association says it doesn't happen like the report says, so pick your favorite I guess?

https://copper.org/applications/plumbing/techcorner/electrolysis_cause_copper_tube_fail.php

Oh.
I love it when there's contradicting information. It makes life so easy.

Mad Dog_2

The Report on copper pin hole leaks supports my contention.  To be clear, I'm not totally anti-plastic. It has great uses but in many cases doesn't cut the mustard 😉.  It should be used sparingly.  Teflon is a great invention and Its helped me in many instances. As far as PVC glue & primer goes.  Yes, it does flush out after a few uses, but where does it go? In to our water ways.  Environmental damage?  Of course, just because its a short lived event, doesn't mean it doesn't do some damage.  I've seen those chemicals kill a whole pond full of Koi & Goldfish 🐠 when the guy didn't flush the new PVC pump & filter piping.  Aren't plastics are a product of a Petroleum process? Petroleum.....drinking water...?? Hmmm. Ill take glass bottles and copper tubing please.   I will disagree with the authors claim of copper lasting just 25  years.  The installed copper I see in Long Island 🏝? And NYC, Westchester et cetera
Is going strong 60 to 75 years. A bad solder joint might start dripping but not the tubing!  Unfortunately, the copper and lead available in the last 10 yrs is not Virgin quality. Aside from Made in USA 🇺🇸 brands (Who is left?? Mueller?) The product out of China & Indo-Pak countries has Specks of Iron in them...This has caused failures, but its not fair (Even "Reckless")  to condemn ALL copper. Stray AC & especially DC  current can certainly cause Electrolysis and pin holes.  All Water districts in Long Island test diligently on a daily basis and  use the Langlier Index (degree of corrosivity) to maintain levels that are not going to aggressively corrode the copper.  Lunch break is over..  check in later.  Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

The Report on copper pin hole leaks supports my contention.  To be clear, I'm not totally anti-plastic. It has great uses but in many cases doesn't cut the mustard 😉.  It should be used sparingly.  Teflon is a great invention and Its helped me in many instances. As far as PVC glue & primer goes.  Yes, it does flush out after a few uses, but where does it go? In to our water ways.  Environmental damage?  Of course, just because its a short lived event, doesn't mean it doesn't do some damage.  I've seen those chemicals kill a whole pond full of Koi & Goldfish 🐠 when the guy didn't flush the new PVC pump & filter piping.  Aren't plastics are a product of a Petroleum process? Petroleum.....drinking water...?? Hmmm. Ill take glass bottles and copper tubing please.   I will disagree with the authors claim of copper lasting just 25  years.  The installed copper I see in Long Island 🏝? And NYC, Westchester et cetera
Is going strong 60 to 75 years. A bad solder joint might start dripping but not the tubing!  Unfortunately, the copper and lead available in the last 10 yrs is not Virgin quality. Aside from Made in USA 🇺🇸 brands (Who is left?? Mueller?) The product out of China & Indo-Pak countries has Specks of Iron in them...This has caused failures, but its not fair (Even "Reckless")  to condemn ALL copper. Stray AC & especially DC  current can certainly cause Electrolysis and pin holes.  All Water districts in Long Island test diligently on a daily basis and  use the Langlier Index (degree of corrosivity) to maintain levels that are not going to aggressively corrode the copper.  Lunch break is over..  check in later.  Mad Dog 🐕 

No, PVC glue and primer does not flush out.
It evaporates as a gas. MEK and Acetone do not stay liquids very long out in the open.

It does not end up in our water.

Mad Dog_2

Where do gases go, Chris?  In to the atmosphere 🤔...then it returns to earth with the rain and all that other great acid rain.....Then it works its way back in to the drinking water 🚰.   Cycles...just like heating...Mad Dog 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

Where do gases go, Chris?  In to the atmosphere 🤔...then it returns to earth with the rain and all that other great acid rain.....Then it works its way back in to the drinking water 🚰.   Cycles...just like heating...Mad Dog 

Are you being serious right now?

Mad Dog_2

DEAD serious. Do these chemicals just magically disappear?  Go to Mars? I gotta hear this one...go ahead edify us.   Mad Dog 🐕 

Charlie from wmass

Mad Dog_2 said:

DEAD serious. Do these chemicals just magically disappear?  Go to Mars? I gotta hear this one...go ahead edify us.   Mad Dog 🐕 

Just like the lead that you so highly covet these chemicals are with us and around us all the time. Whether something is made from petrochemicals or heavy metals it is poisoning the environment. Picking and choosing which way of being poisoned you prefer is highly hypocritical.

ChrisJ

MEK and Acetone I'm sure get broken down in the environment, but I do not know how. The amounts used to solvent weld PVC and ABS are so little it's completely irrelevant.

mattmia2

Mad Dog_2 said:

DEAD serious. Do these chemicals just magically disappear?  Go to Mars? I gotta hear this one...go ahead edify us.   Mad Dog 🐕 

It depends. Most break down, what they break down to may or may not be better than what they started as. Most Freons don't break down easily, that is what makes them great refrigerants and very bad for the environment. That is the problem with DDT as well.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

Mad Dog_2 said:

DEAD serious. Do these chemicals just magically disappear?  Go to Mars? I gotta hear this one...go ahead edify us.   Mad Dog 🐕 

It depends. Most break down, what they break down to may or may not be better than what they started as. Most Freons don't break down easily, that is what makes them great refrigerants and very bad for the environment. That is the problem with DDT as well.

SO2 is a fantastic refrigerant, but breaks down very rapidly in the presence of moisture or water.
I've read stories about early Freon systems having freezing issues due to moisture in the system where SO2 would've destroyed the system.

mattmia2

ChrisJ said:

mattmia2 said:

Mad Dog_2 said:

DEAD serious. Do these chemicals just magically disappear?  Go to Mars? I gotta hear this one...go ahead edify us.   Mad Dog 🐕 

It depends. Most break down, what they break down to may or may not be better than what they started as. Most Freons don't break down easily, that is what makes them great refrigerants and very bad for the environment. That is the problem with DDT as well.

SO2 is a fantastic refrigerant, but breaks down very rapidly in the presence of moisture or water.
I've read stories about early Freon systems having freezing issues due to moisture in the system where SO2 would've destroyed the system.

It isn't breaking down, it is dissolving in water and because of the way it dissolves it forms sulfuric acid. If you remove the water you have sulfur dioxide again.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

ChrisJ said:

mattmia2 said:

Mad Dog_2 said:

DEAD serious. Do these chemicals just magically disappear?  Go to Mars? I gotta hear this one...go ahead edify us.   Mad Dog 🐕 

It depends. Most break down, what they break down to may or may not be better than what they started as. Most Freons don't break down easily, that is what makes them great refrigerants and very bad for the environment. That is the problem with DDT as well.

SO2 is a fantastic refrigerant, but breaks down very rapidly in the presence of moisture or water.
I've read stories about early Freon systems having freezing issues due to moisture in the system where SO2 would've destroyed the system.

It isn't breaking down, it is dissolving in water and because of the way it dissolves it forms sulfuric acid. If you remove the water you have sulfur dioxide again.

Really?
If that's true, I had no idea.

EdTheHeaterMan

ron said:

ethicalpaul said:

Something happened to that flex line

Me I usually go for schedule 80 galvanized pipe for toilet connections

Ron. Schedule 80??? You must have some rough episodes in the can! Have you seen a doctor for that condition?

ChrisJ

EdTheHeaterMan said:

ron said:

ethicalpaul said:

Something happened to that flex line

Me I usually go for schedule 80 galvanized pipe for toilet connections

Ron. Schedule 80??? You must have some rough episodes in the can! Have you seen a doctor for that condition?

Some people actually need Schedule XXH.......

DJD775

For reference these are limits set by ICH for class 3 (safest) solvents used in pharmaceutical manufacture.

jumper

Don't understand why stable molecules like freon or PFOAS are bad for me in almost undetectable quantities? Latest US EPA boogeyman is ethylene oxide which our wretched bodies produce naturally.

ChrisJ

jumper said:

Don't understand why stable molecules like freon or PFOAS are bad for me in almost undetectable quantities? Latest US EPA boogeyman is ethylene oxide which our wretched bodies produce naturally.

Who said PTFE was bad?
PFOA yes, there's claims of that. But I don't think I've heard of PTFE being bad.

BenDplumber

I'm with ya Matt! The sign off a skilled craftsman is the details. Plumb,pitched,level and square. Perfectly bent offsets on something as small as a piece of riser tubing is a showcase of our skills. That's what well trained craftsman of there industry do everyday, not just weekends or evenings in there own homes. "A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work, and marvel at my skills " Stay strong to what's proven to last in your experience, after all isn't that what the client is paying us for?

Mad Dog_2

Thank you Ben!  Atleast there are a few of us left.  Mad Dog 🐕