Why I don't like SS Flex supplies...

BenDplumber

Yes sir! Hopefully the legacy of our forefathers beliefs of craftsmanship will carry on to the next generation of plumbers and fitters, not just the quickest way to make a buck. Remember the contrarians will always exist, they don't work in our industry.

Charlie from wmass

Innovation is knowing when to leave behind methods that waste time and resources. In 100 years none of the 5 year old fixtures will be in service. Heck in 25 few of them will be. In 6 years most people are tired of their fixtures and they are throwing them away. Plus in 100 years hopefully we are finally using metric sizes. 

Mad Dog_2

Chris. "Completely Irrelevant" ?? Rachel Carlson would have a field on you. Just because a drop of cyanide or PCBs (pick your chemical) in a Reservoir has a very high dilution ratio, it doesn't negate the damage that is being done to the ecosystem, the amphibians and the fish, and ultimately us.  As advanced a Civilization we are, we  still have no cure for Cancer !
Chemicals in our drinking water 🚰 are always a major suspect. Just because you're not throwing up and nasaueous after 
Drinking such water, do you really think those minute poisons are not having a deleterious effect over time?  If PVC glue and primer are so harmless, pour a glass of water through a 4" Joint you just put together and catch it with another glass...Would you drink that?  You'd do liver and kidney damage.  ALL chemicals (especially man-made) - however miniscule- are harmful to our environment and bodies. They have a cumulative effect.. Can we agree?  Mad Dog 🐕 

BenDplumber

So innovation involves wasting resources? The piping still remains and needs to be re connected to the new fixtures you carelessly throw away.

hot_rod

Mad Dog_2 said:

I've seen that report.  Those chemicals are NOT good for your kidneys, liver, nervous system, brain, et al.  Did I miss something in that article? 
Where does it say those chemicals cause pinholes in copper tubing?  I live less than a mile from Garden City and our wells pull from adjacent & some of the same aquifers.
Why doesn't my town Floral Park and Other surrounding towns of Garden City Franklin Sqaure, New Hyde Park, Mineola have the 
Inordinate amount of pin hole leaks in copper tubing that Garden City Seems to have?  I've worked on replacing this pin hole riddled piping for many years.  I've talked to The Electrical utility guys and electricians.  Improper grounding is the cause.  Did the builders and original electricians install the systems wrong?  Perhaps....Don't know, but this is what guys in the know, have told us. Long Island 🏝 certainly has its share of contaminated drinking water like The Grumman Plume under Dan's Old House in Bethpage and my in laws in North Seaford...just South of Bethpage.  Everyone is well aware and it is being dealt with.   Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2 said:

I've seen that report.  Those chemicals are NOT good for your kidneys, liver, nervous system, brain, et al.  Did I miss something in that article? 
Where does it say those chemicals cause pinholes in copper tubing?  I live less than a mile from Garden City and our wells pull from adjacent & some of the same aquifers.
Why doesn't my town Floral Park and Other surrounding towns of Garden City Franklin Sqaure, New Hyde Park, Mineola have the 
Inordinate amount of pin hole leaks in copper tubing that Garden City Seems to have?  I've worked on replacing this pin hole riddled piping for many years.  I've talked to The Electrical utility guys and electricians.  Improper grounding is the cause.  Did the builders and original electricians install the systems wrong?  Perhaps....Don't know, but this is what guys in the know, have told us. Long Island 🏝 certainly has its share of contaminated drinking water like The Grumman Plume under Dan's Old House in Bethpage and my in laws in North Seaford...just South of Bethpage.  Everyone is well aware and it is being dealt with.   Mad Dog

Stray current can cause pinholes, it’s fairly simple to determine with a muliampmeter in series between the tube and ground wire. Hard to believe many homes had that go undetected in one small area of the Isle of Long? Proper grounding methods have been in electrical codes for many decades, it’s something an electrician or inspector should know. Was there only one electrician in garden City doing service grounds wrong🤔

Water quality is by far the bigger culprit, and there are hundreds of pages on this at the CDA website. It is a tougher diagnosis as the cities were not always forthcoming with the test analysis and access to the public.

https://copper.org/publications/pub_list/plumbing.php

Mad Dog_2

Charlie from Mass:  Yes, we do have a myriad of Naturally occurring toxins like lead, mercury, arsenic, asbestos, radon, et cetera..were stuck with those!!  Do we need to add more to the list?  Made by man?  No hypocrisy here.  Yours is an Apples to oranges 🍊 comparison. Certain things are a given by nature. There's nothing we can do to change that..here before us..here to stay...just don't eat them you'll be Fine,  Charlie.  They were here long before us and will be here long after.   Manmade toxins don't need to exacerbate the problem.  What are the worst toxins in the water and the Earth?
Dioxin, PCBs, PFAS, DDT, aroclor, and other pesticides.  1, 4 Dioxane. These are the most harmful toxins to the human body.  The next house I renovate, I'll install all Lead drainage, waste and vent and AAA lead water service and distribution piping.....just to annoy you 🙂 ha ha hah.  Mad Dog 🐕 Extremely Proud  "Plumbarius" (worker of lead [plumbumb])

mattmia2

cyanide is naturally occurring and is harmless in very low concentrations. freons are not harmful to humans unless they are in such a concentration that they displace the air. their danger is in that they decompose in the upper atmosphere and those products decompose the ozone that shields the earth from the uv from the sun. chemicals that don't get removed from the body tend to be problems like lead or mercury or fat soluble organic compounds.

maybe i'll eventually answer the electrolysis question...my guess is that it is a combination of the utility didn't have their stuff bonded right and this was built in the time between were changes to plastic piping required the new rules about additional equipment grounding electrodes but the code hadn't been changed yet.

mattmia2

Oh, and i think that document that was written by "marineplumbingservuce" was written by someone that was paid to have an opinion that someone wasn't liable for the damage, it does not appear to be factually accurate.

Mad Dog_2

Thank you for the information Mattia! I appreciate the  good, clean debate and the representation of ideas 💡.   Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Yes Hot Rod....some water is more corrosive than others, but I have to say, being the largest County in the USA 🇺🇸, Nassau Water Districts work very hard, on a daily basis to monitor and treat the Water out of our Aquifers.  Garden City has its older original, Historic District from Around 1870s approximately. This is around the World Famous Episcopal Catherdral.  The Second phase of housing is "The Estates- very large, 3500-5500 s.f homes around the Golf Courses...they have 4 I believe.  These homes went in from approximately 1900-1930.  The Last Area, West of Franklin Ave (The Fifth Ave of Long Island 🏝,) to its border with my village Floral Park are much newer, going in from 1946-1960s. It is in this last group of homes, that I found the most pinholes.  This third group of homes probably represents 70% of all the homes in The Village. As you know, builders DO often use the same Subcontractors on new housing tracts and developments.  That could be it...who knows.  All I can tell yiu is this: 1) Every respectable Plumbing shop in the area
Knows about this for as long as I'm in the business 1986. 2) Atleast 6 Licensed Electricians I know, know about it. A Licenesd NYC Master Electrician, who is in MY village (not in Garden City) had a bad ground on the main that Discovered  AND PINHOLES.  He corrected it and hasn't had the same problem in 20 years.  3) The Water Districts have been vilified and under tremendous scrutiny for years over this issue and all health issues that "COULD BE" caused from from The Water.  Never any conclusive proof.  I will be querying the electricians in the future on this issue.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

I credit The following men for my Dogged (pun-intended) pursuit of Mechanical precision & Perfection:

1) My father Bartholomew Sweeney III (RIP) Master Thoroughbred Horseman and Master Woodcarver.
2) His Father, Bartholomew Sweeney II, (RIP)  Master Horseman from Tipperary Ireland 🇮🇪 , who Famed  NY Sportswriter , Red Smith said of when he Died in 1957:
"Bart Sweeney was the man you called when you needed something done at 2am, plus or minus no seconds...Meticulous  attention to detail was his trademark. "
3) Dan Holohan, our Patron.  Dan's Books and articles confirmed the way I felt about Pride and Craftsmanship in one's work...set yourself apart...find your niche and run with it...Work tirelessly to be the best!  His words gave me chills...still do..He stirs the Celtic & Tectonic echoes of my forefathers...
4) Chuck Pannepinto (RIP) Eddie Booth (RIP) , Robert DeLuca (RIP) My Plumbers Local #2 "rabbis" and instructors.  Jimmy O Brien (RIP)  and John J. Nolan (RiP) 
Great, tough to work for, Foremen in the U.A. Plumbers Local #2. 
5) "Uncle Richard" English and Jimmy The Gent Burke (The best Non-union craftsman around who taught me all kinds of heating and boilers and residential plumbing.  We would try to outdo eachother every day.  It was great fun and the Clients benefitted.  

My guiding philosophy? 

The best job possible - however small - and seemingly trivial is PARAMOUNT .
Making Money 💰 is a close second.  This is opposite of what most think...and I like that.   

"A Hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work....."  That floats my boat!
Mad Dog 
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.

Mad Dog_2

The Metric system??? You mean the "better" system that certain people claimed would be the standard of the World by 1980? Like the Killer Bees 🐝 that were going to Come from Brazil 🇧🇷 and kill us in the 80s..Y2K??  Charlie, please tell us how the metric system is so superior to our Standards of Measurement?  We seem to be able to measure things quite accurately, find our way around ok here in 🇺🇸 America.  Look, SS flexes ARE a great invention that can get one out of a jam or get you home one late night as a Temp solution.  They also look pretty cool on Hot Rod Engine and motorcycles, but I'd still rather see the Craftsmanship of Bending tubing. The mechanical trades should be part science part Art work.  Anyone can Half-A-- it.  Set yourself apart, man!  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

RESOURCES:  MY Dear Grandmother 👵 Ethel  Margaret Kearns (RIP) survived the Great  depression dirt poor in a Bushwick Brooklyn Cold Water Flat. I heard her and other of that extremely tough generation often say:  "Waste not...want not." I try to live by that maxim. It worked for them. We've become a "Throw away" Society...I don't participate in that....Mad Dog 

PC7060

Wow, what a thread @Mad Dog_2! This one rival some of @ChrisJ thread.  
Regarding the metric system versus British standard.  Is one better that the other? I’d say metric is better because of the ease of conversion between units.  Multiplying by 10 is as easy as adding a 0. Converting feet to inch takes longer and error prone especially when dealing with fractions of an inch.
And the 1-1 conversion of H20 volume to mass is beautiful.  

But let’s just ignore whether one system is better for now. The real problem with maintaining to systems is we all have to maintain two sets of every wrench and socket and then spend time filling around trying to figure out which system we type is used. 

The metric system conversion in the didn’t die in the 80’s because businesses didn’t want it. It died because politicians got involved.  

Mad Dog_2

Good Argument.  I don't mind the extra math or sockets..Ill keep our system. Mad Dog

random12345

As a non-pro, I've been following this thread and have two questions: 1) when you are making plumbing connections, such as with a toilet, should you use copper or a different material? 2) does bending metal tubes weaken them appreciably such that they are more likely to leak/burst? For example should you try to to minimize sharp angles?

ChrisJ

random12345 said:

As a non-pro, I've been following this thread and have two questions: 1) when you are making plumbing connections, such as with a toilet, should you use copper or a different material? 2) does bending metal tubes weaken them appreciably such that they are more likely to leak/burst? For example should you try to to minimize sharp angles?

What you should use will depend on who you ask.

Bending soft copper does not weaken it.  You'll likely kink it if you bend too sharp.

jumper

Charlie from wmass said:

Innovation is knowing when to leave behind methods that waste time and resources. In 100 years none of the 5 year old fixtures will be in service. Heck in 25 few of them will be. In 6 years most people are tired of their fixtures and they are throwing them away. Plus in 100 years hopefully we are finally using metric sizes. 

In a hundred years ChiefEngineerScotty & his band of MerryMen will beam human defecation directly from folks' guts directly here to XXIst century earth. Wjich explains what goes on. There'll be no need for stinking fixtures. Have you not noticed that there's no toilet nor privy in any StarDrekk episode or movie?

ethicalpaul

1) My father Bartholomew Sweeney III (RIP) Master Thoroughbred Horseman and Master Woodcarver.

Hey Mad Dog that's something else we have in common besides an appreciation of steam boilers--my father was first a jockey, then a farrier, then a manufacturer of thoroughbred racing shoes (using the horseshoe bender he invented), then a driver/trainer of standard bred pacers.

I don't know if he was a Master of any of those, but he was a Master Debater

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

Good Argument.  I don't mind the extra math or sockets..Ill keep our system. Mad Dog

It's not always about the extra sockets or math.
Sometimes it's about working smarter.

Other times it's about reducing error.

Why would anyone want to do more math to have the same amount of work completed in the end?