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Say good bye to gas

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Comments

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853
    WMno57 said:

    ChrisJ said:

    Calling it dino fuel or dino oil would be inaccurate or misleading.

    True, but it was (and still is) a great marketing strategy for Sinclair. Vintage Petroliana is hot right now. Must be the young people that like it, because we all know old farts don't spend money. They keep their 80's vintage cars
    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Shitbox
    and 40's vintage boilers forever.
    @Sal Santamaura, You and your family deserve a new Chevy Bolt. Think of the pride you will feel as you glide silently up to your next Sierra Club meeting. "The Bolt is powered by the Sun!" (Jennifer Granholm quote). What will it take to get you behind the wheel of a new UNION Made, planet saving, GREEN Chevy Bolt?

    And Dinoco in Pixar movies which I think is based on Sinclair.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 657
    Sal, it appears we are typing past each other. I hope you realize much of what I say is in jest. Thank you for the feedback about the interior color. I'm glad to hear you found some good points with the Bolt. Would be interested in your thoughts re the Bolt vs other similar models, Leaf, Model 3, etc.
  • random12345
    random12345 Member Posts: 298
    pecmsg said:

    I highly doubt that!

    I wish it weren't true. I worked it all out on a spreadsheet taking into account differences in boiler efficiencies, peak and off-peak pricing for gas, my oil consumption in the heating vs non-heating season. We go through about 1100-1200 gallons a year.

    Boston Gas Company rates: https://gasrates.nationalgridus.com/ne/index-rates-afternov.jsp

    Heating oil rates in MA: https://mass.gov/info-details/massachusetts-home-heating-fuels-prices#retail-heating-oil-prices-
    We are in the 90th percentile or thereabouts. Full-service oil companies in our area charge a lot.

    $2400/yr average savings from 2014-2020.

    Hot_water_fan
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853

    pecmsg said:

    I highly doubt that!

    I wish it weren't true. I worked it all out on a spreadsheet taking into account differences in boiler efficiencies, peak and off-peak pricing for gas, my oil consumption in the heating vs non-heating season. We go through about 1100-1200 gallons a year.

    Boston Gas Company rates: https://gasrates.nationalgridus.com/ne/index-rates-afternov.jsp

    Heating oil rates in MA: https://mass.gov/info-details/massachusetts-home-heating-fuels-prices#retail-heating-oil-prices-
    We are in the 90th percentile or thereabouts. Full-service oil companies in our area charge a lot.

    $2400/yr average savings from 2014-2020.


    Wouldn't electric rates for winter of 2022-2023 be much higher than of 2014-2020? Was that taken into consideration?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • random12345
    random12345 Member Posts: 298
    I was just comparing gas and oil for those years. I didn't think a gas boiler would consume more or less electricity than an oil boiler. But...my last electric bill was $0.3219/kwh, rates have been going up. Second highest in the country I believe. In the winter rates tend to be lower than summer for us I believe.
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 460
    WMno57 said:

    Sal, it appears we are typing past each other. I hope you realize much of what I say is in jest...

    I take the subject of anthropogenic global warming very seriously, so might from time to time not pick up on others' humorous intentions when discussing it.
    WMno57 said:

    ...Thank you for the feedback about the interior color. I'm glad to hear you found some good points with the Bolt. Would be interested in your thoughts re the Bolt vs other similar models, Leaf, Model 3, etc.

    I'm not really an "active" shopper for cars these days. A third of a century commuting 100 miles per day round trip through southern California traffic reduces one's enthusiasm significantly. I always try to be prepared, however, so have done a little looking into Bolt alternatives.
    The Leaf is not great on two counts. First, I hate "single pedal" driving. Second, it, like the Bolt, is only offered with a black interior. My message to Mary Barra implored her to eschew the "color fashion experts." Those people seem to have been successful at Nissan too.
    As for Model 3, I'd never consider purchasing anything from Tesla. On the fundamentals, that brand's reliability is a real downer. I've done all maintenance and repairs on my 2003 Accord (except for the recalls to replace airbag inflators, which dealers performed at no charge). Since purchasing it brand new, there have been only three repairs. I replaced the brake light switch, the A/C fan resistor block and the A/C compressor relay. That's it after hundreds of thousands of miles. All the rest has just been scheduled maintenance. I don't count batteries or stone-shattered windshields against Honda. So you can see I've been spoiled and have reliability expectations that far exceed typical customers'.
    Finally, I could say more about why Tesla will never receive a dime from me, but that would blatantly violate Erin's rule against politics on The Wall. :)
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,401
    I'm not dodging, nor did I ever say or mean to imply that rising sea levels are the only effect of "climate change" -- although if one were as knowledgeable as one sounds, one might know that the changes in ocean circulation in the North Atlantic which will result from the loss of the Greenland Ice Sheet (note: will, not might) will have a major effect on the sensed climate in Europe and eastern North America.

    And I quite agree that some of the other effects which are mentioned -- altered food supplies and the like -- will indeed need creative and active work to manage. However, they are all manageable -- or will be, if some people get out of the way and allow them to be managed (don't get me started on converting food crops into fuel, or crop land into solar famrs...). It is a little harder to manage living 30 feet underwater in what was a major city, however, and some people may have to move. For some people -- wealthy coastal elites on lovely coasts -- this won't be a problem. For others -- 165 million very poor people in Bangladesh, to pick just one example -- it won't be quite so simple.

    My major contention is that it's long past time to stop screaming about a few degrees of net warming and starting to figure out how to cope with it. The natural world will manage; it has before, and will again, though it will change. Will we? We can, and be the better for it globally -- but not if we keep doing what we are doing now.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    PC7060
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853

    I'm not dodging, nor did I ever say or mean to imply that rising sea levels are the only effect of "climate change" -- although if one were as knowledgeable as one sounds, one might know that the changes in ocean circulation in the North Atlantic which will result from the loss of the Greenland Ice Sheet (note: will, not might) will have a major effect on the sensed climate in Europe and eastern North America.

    And I quite agree that some of the other effects which are mentioned -- altered food supplies and the like -- will indeed need creative and active work to manage. However, they are all manageable -- or will be, if some people get out of the way and allow them to be managed (don't get me started on converting food crops into fuel, or crop land into solar famrs...). It is a little harder to manage living 30 feet underwater in what was a major city, however, and some people may have to move. For some people -- wealthy coastal elites on lovely coasts -- this won't be a problem. For others -- 165 million very poor people in Bangladesh, to pick just one example -- it won't be quite so simple.

    My major contention is that it's long past time to stop screaming about a few degrees of net warming and starting to figure out how to cope with it. The natural world will manage; it has before, and will again, though it will change. Will we? We can, and be the better for it globally -- but not if we keep doing what we are doing now.


    Based on what I've personally observed over the past three years.

    I'm not so sure we can.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • random12345
    random12345 Member Posts: 298
    edited September 2022
    WMno57 said:

    "Passenger-side airbags in motorcars were intended as a safety feature, but led to an increase in child fatalities in the mid-1990s because small children were being hit by airbags that deployed automatically during collisions. The supposed solution to this problem, moving the child seat to the back of the vehicle, led to an increase in the number of children forgotten in unattended vehicles, some of whom died under extreme temperature conditions."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequences#Perverse_results
    This concludes today's lesson on why Government should be limited.

    Interesting about the airbags and the GDI. CAFE standards are another thing that can be added to that list. There's evidence they increase mortality.

    This study from Brookhaven National Lab shows that the cleanest type of wood stove using wood pellets still releases 1563-2273 times as much PM 2.5 on an energy equivalent basis compared to natural gas combustion. Fireplaces and burning cordwood would be much higher...



    https://bnl.gov/isd/documents/71376.pdf
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 460

    ...nor did I ever say or mean to imply that rising sea levels are the only effect of "climate change"...

    Putting the phrase in quotes is a common way to diminish its importance. It's real. And the rate at which it's happening is human caused.

    My major contention is that it's long past time to stop screaming about a few degrees of net warming and starting to figure out how to cope with it...

    Fossil fuel elimination mandates aren't just screaming about those degrees. They're ways to slow their arrival. To permit more time to cope. I've yet to hear any explanation--from anyone--about why we shouldn't both slow the rate of warming and implement coping strategies at the same time.
  • unclejohn
    unclejohn Member Posts: 1,778
    A fossil is any preserved remains, impression, or trace of any once-living thing from a past geological age.

    this is not oil
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,401
    Oddly, I agree -- slowing the rate of increase is a worthy cause. Pity that we -- that is, western society -- are doing so so badly and futilely, isn't it? I might start to think that some real progress might be in store when every water connection in the greater LA area and Phoenix is restricted to 20 gallons per person per day of freshwater and not one drop more. For starters. Then I might think that perhaps the restrictions on things like fossil fuel or other headline clickbait is more than window dressing. Or stopping growing rice and lettuce in a desert... or...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853
    unclejohn said:

    A fossil is any preserved remains, impression, or trace of any once-living thing from a past geological age.

    this is not oil



    Ok.
    To keep everyone happy we should change the name fossil fuel to 400 million year old algae, bacteria and plaint fuels.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    CanuckerPC7060
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 460

    Oddly, I agree -- slowing the rate of increase is a worthy cause. Pity that we -- that is, western society -- are doing so so badly and futilely, isn't it? I might start to think that some real progress might be in store when every water connection in the greater LA area and Phoenix is restricted to 20 gallons per person per day of freshwater and not one drop more...

    That's the epitome of whataboutism. If this weren't a heating site and discussion of water use were appropriate, I'd advise that my bill reflects under 50 gallons per person per day. It would be less, but restrictive covenants (that are strictly enforced and haven't yet been overridden by law, but might be soon) mandate landscape maintenance. I've had xeriscaping from the start, but there's just so much one can dessicate even those plants before the so-called lawn nazis (no, we have no turf) send violation letters. I've tested the limits, received the letters and incremented irrigation back up to the minimum practical level.

    ...For starters. Then I might think that perhaps the restrictions on things like fossil fuel or other headline clickbait is more than window dressing. Or stopping growing rice and lettuce in a desert... or...

    Why must mandatory tapering of our dependence on fossil fuels be denigrated as clickbait and window dressing? Cannot serious problems be addressed seriously, one at a time? Does inaction on one of them mean there should be no action on others?
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 460
    unclejohn said:

    A fossil is any preserved remains, impression, or trace of any once-living thing from a past geological age...this is not oil

    Another tangential distraction. Fin tube copper emitters are, for the most part, not radiators either, but they're almost universally referred to as radiators. How about we communicate with the world in terms it understands.
    This explains where the phrase fossil fuels originated:
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/06/28/though-ancient-fossil-fuels-dont-actually-come-from-fossils/?sh=785dc2fe6081
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,882
    edited September 2022
    ChrisJ said:


    Uncle John Said:
    A fossil is any preserved remains, impression, or trace of any once-living thing from a past geological age.

    Photo Redacted.

    this is not oil




    Ok.
    To keep everyone happy we should change the name fossil fuel to 400 million year old algae, bacteria and plaint fuels.

    I'm offended for those fossil fuels, having to change their name just to appease those that have a opinion on how the colloquialism and a Webster definition can impact their identity! What is this world coming to?

    And this is not COAL

    BUT it could have been!

    Edward Young Retired HVAC Contractor & HYDRONICIAN Services first oil burner at age 16 P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
    PC7060
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,401
    edited September 2022
    I give up
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    EdTheHeaterManSal SantamauraSuperTechDanHolohan
  • ilikebeans
    ilikebeans Member Posts: 18
    edited September 2022
    Here's an interesting book about replacements for fossil fuel.

    "Life After Fossil Fuels: A Reality Check on Alternative Energy"

    Author(s): Alice J. Friedemann

    Series: Lecture Notes in Energy Vol 81

    Publisher: Springer, Year: 2021

    ISBN: 9783030703349,9783030703356


  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,115
    hot_rod said:
    I give up
    No need to give up, it’s your researched opinion. In this day and age, you may not get much if any agreement. We live in alternate reality times thanks to brut force political opinions

    You look outside to observe that it is raining,  some shout loud and long enough and a % will believe the sun is shining😉
    Illusory truth effect
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853
    edited September 2022
    JakeCK said:


    hot_rod said:



    I give up


    No need to give up, it’s your researched opinion. In this day and age, you may not get much if any agreement. We live in alternate reality times thanks to brut force political opinions

    You look outside to observe that it is raining,  some shout loud and long enough and a % will believe the sun is shining😉


    Illusory truth effect

    Kind of like all of those shouting how good heat pumps are.

    :D
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    unclejohnSolid_Fuel_Man
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,115
    ChrisJ said:
    hot_rod said:
    I give up
    No need to give up, it’s your researched opinion. In this day and age, you may not get much if any agreement. We live in alternate reality times thanks to brut force political opinions

    You look outside to observe that it is raining,  some shout loud and long enough and a % will believe the sun is shining😉
    Illusory truth effect
    Kind of like all of those shouting how good heat pumps are. :D



    Except heat pumps do work? Both the science and math back that up. We've been using heat pumps for over a century now too. And they are pretty awesome in my opinion. I personally use heat pumps in my house to heat my water, cool my house, dry my basement, preserve my food, and hopefully soon dry my clothes, and heat the house too.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853
    edited September 2022
    JakeCK said:


    ChrisJ said:

    JakeCK said:


    hot_rod said:



    I give up


    No need to give up, it’s your researched opinion. In this day and age, you may not get much if any agreement. We live in alternate reality times thanks to brut force political opinions

    You look outside to observe that it is raining,  some shout loud and long enough and a % will believe the sun is shining😉


    Illusory truth effect

    Kind of like all of those shouting how good heat pumps are.

    :D





    Except heat pumps do work? Both the science and math back that up. We've been using heat pumps for over a century now too. And they are pretty awesome in my opinion. I personally use heat pumps in my house to heat my water, cool my house, dry my basement, preserve my food, and hopefully soon dry my clothes, and heat the house too.

    I'm pretty sure you're not using a heat pump to preserve your food. There are differences between a heat pump and a refrigerator, technically.

    In one situation the primary object is to cool something. In the other the primary object is to heat something.

    Your dehumidifier's primary object is to lower the dew point and since it's reintroducing heat back into the air that was previously cooled that's not a heat pump either.


    I do not believe my comment, or any of my comments in this thread ever suggested heat pumps or refrigeration do not work. I'm suggesting they do not solve a problem that is being discussed.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,115
    edited September 2022
    Umm a refrigerator is a heat pump by definition. It literally pumps heat. In the case of a fridge it pumps out the heat that is in the box out of the box. A dehumidifier moves heat too. Only the goal is simply to move it between the evaporator and condenser coils long enough to cause condensation and dry the air. Waste heat from the compressor is also dumped into the room being dried. All of these machines use basically the same components. Condenser coils, evaporator coils, a compressor, and refrigerant. And electricity as the energy source. :S Please don't insult my intelligence. 

    Edit: And they all rely on the same physics, TPV. You can see the same physics at work just by using a can of compressed air.
    Hot_water_fan
  • Motorapido
    Motorapido Member Posts: 307
    ChrisJ said:

    @WMno57

    and the issues with intake valves getting buildup from oil vapor and no gasoline cleaning them it's just not worth it

    Hey, ChrisJ, we should start a controversial thread on catch-cans to prevent carbon buildup on intake valves of GDI cars. I read and read and read about this topic, and on the various forums, two warring factions emerge, pro-catch-can and anti-catch-can. I feel strongly tempted to install a catch-can, but I remain doubtful that the devices have been scientifically tested to prove their efficacy. Have you considered a catch-can, and have you attempted to cut through all the snake oil claims about catch-cans to dig down to the science?
    ChrisJ
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,115
    @WMno57 and the issues with intake valves getting buildup from oil vapor and no gasoline cleaning them it's just not worth it
    Hey, ChrisJ, we should start a controversial thread on catch-cans to prevent carbon buildup on intake valves of GDI cars. I read and read and read about this topic, and on the various forums, two warring factions emerge, pro-catch-can and anti-catch-can. I feel strongly tempted to install a catch-can, but I remain doubtful that the devices have been scientifically tested to prove their efficacy. Have you considered a catch-can, and have you attempted to cut through all the snake oil claims about catch-cans to dig down to the science?
    I'd wager that they do make a difference, but how much of a difference... Who knows. I've personally seen that they do catch oil before it gets recirculated back into the intake. But what % is actually being caught? Is it 50% or 5% or .5%? And why would auto manufacturers not install them themselves? Considering many of these vehicles start to exhibit issues before warranty is up I could see a financial incentive to do so if they actually made a meaningful impact. It could also be a case of expecting most owners to never check and clean them out so determine that it is not worth it.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853
    JakeCK said:

    Umm a refrigerator is a heat pump by definition. It literally pumps heat. In the case of a fridge it pumps out the heat that is in the box out of the box. A dehumidifier moves heat too. Only the goal is simply to move it between the evaporator and condenser coils long enough to cause condensation and dry the air. Waste heat from the compressor is also dumped into the room being dried. All of these machines use basically the same components. Condenser coils, evaporator coils, a compressor, and refrigerant. And electricity as the energy source. :S Please don't insult my intelligence

    Edit: And they all rely on the same physics, TPV. You can see the same physics at work just by using a can of compressed air.


    Are you being serious right now?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,401
    Whew. A slightly different topic!

    Would it be fair to say that all phase change compression heat transfer machines work on the same principles, but differ -- sometimes quite radically -- in design to best meet the application? The machines in question all operate by manipulating the pressure of a refrigerant gas so that, at a high pressure, it condenses and releases heat to a cooling medium. The pressure is then reduced on the resulting liquid which is then passed by a warming medium, which evaporates the refrigerant. Then a compressor raises the pressure again. Rinse and repeat.

    The combination of refrigerant properties and acceptable pressures determines the usable temperature ranges of the low temperature heat providing side and the high temperature heat releasing side.

    Now what you do with the heat released on the condensing side or absorbed on the evaporating side can and does vary all over the place. You can air condition a room. Or chill your wine. Or keep your venison frozen. You can heat a room. Or hot water for your shower. You can chill air to condense the water vapour in it -- and then turn around and rewarm that same air so your space is now drier, but not chilly. Or...

    And the machinery to do it can be simple (let's face it -- a refrigerator operates between a very narrow temperature range on both sides, and a narrow heat load, and so can be very simple. A heat pump for a house has a much wider temperature range to work with, and much wider load ranges and, worse, has to be able to go both ways (interchange hot and cold sides) at will, and so is much more complex.

    It's all kind of fun to play with both from the physics and engineering standpoints!
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853
    edited September 2022

    Whew. A slightly different topic!

    Would it be fair to say that all phase change compression heat transfer machines work on the same principles, but differ -- sometimes quite radically -- in design to best meet the application? The machines in question all operate by manipulating the pressure of a refrigerant gas so that, at a high pressure, it condenses and releases heat to a cooling medium. The pressure is then reduced on the resulting liquid which is then passed by a warming medium, which evaporates the refrigerant. Then a compressor raises the pressure again. Rinse and repeat.

    The combination of refrigerant properties and acceptable pressures determines the usable temperature ranges of the low temperature heat providing side and the high temperature heat releasing side.

    Now what you do with the heat released on the condensing side or absorbed on the evaporating side can and does vary all over the place. You can air condition a room. Or chill your wine. Or keep your venison frozen. You can heat a room. Or hot water for your shower. You can chill air to condense the water vapour in it -- and then turn around and rewarm that same air so your space is now drier, but not chilly. Or...

    And the machinery to do it can be simple (let's face it -- a refrigerator operates between a very narrow temperature range on both sides, and a narrow heat load, and so can be very simple. A heat pump for a house has a much wider temperature range to work with, and much wider load ranges and, worse, has to be able to go both ways (interchange hot and cold sides) at will, and so is much more complex.

    It's all kind of fun to play with both from the physics and engineering standpoints!


    Though early on hermetic systems had a lot of unexpected issues that needed to be dealt with. Refrigerant condensing in the oil.... Oil not returning when they didn't expect it to leave in the first place (they intentionally chose refrigerants not miscible with the oil) and so on and so on.

    They had a lot of growing pains 1926-ish-1933. I'd say 34-35 is when GE perfected hermetic systems and had pretty much everything ironed out.


    Though one thing I believe to be true is the bigger the temperature difference between the evaporator and condenser, the lower the efficiency of the system. Does this still apply to current heat pumps? And if so, do manufacturers currently advertise what a system's efficiency is at 0F, 10F, 20F etc?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,115
    edited September 2022
    Whew. A slightly different topic! Would it be fair to say that all phase change compression heat transfer machines work on the same principles, but differ -- sometimes quite radically -- in design to best meet the application? The machines in question all operate by manipulating the pressure of a refrigerant gas so that, at a high pressure, it condenses and releases heat to a cooling medium. The pressure is then reduced on the resulting liquid which is then passed by a warming medium, which evaporates the refrigerant. Then a compressor raises the pressure again. Rinse and repeat. The combination of refrigerant properties and acceptable pressures determines the usable temperature ranges of the low temperature heat providing side and the high temperature heat releasing side. Now what you do with the heat released on the condensing side or absorbed on the evaporating side can and does vary all over the place. You can air condition a room. Or chill your wine. Or keep your venison frozen. You can heat a room. Or hot water for your shower. You can chill air to condense the water vapour in it -- and then turn around and rewarm that same air so your space is now drier, but not chilly. Or... And the machinery to do it can be simple (let's face it -- a refrigerator operates between a very narrow temperature range on both sides, and a narrow heat load, and so can be very simple. A heat pump for a house has a much wider temperature range to work with, and much wider load ranges and, worse, has to be able to go both ways (interchange hot and cold sides) at will, and so is much more complex. It's all kind of fun to play with both from the physics and engineering standpoints!
    And they are all still heat pumps. Arguing otherwise is like arguing your riding lawn mowers internal combustion engine is fundamentally different then the one in your car. Assuming of course both aren't EV's. 


    And approaching the argument from differences in refrigerant isn't quite valid either. A "heat pump" from 1980 uses a different refrigerant than one today and operates are different pressures and temperatures as well.
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,115
    ChrisJ said:
    Umm a refrigerator is a heat pump by definition. It literally pumps heat. In the case of a fridge it pumps out the heat that is in the box out of the box. A dehumidifier moves heat too. Only the goal is simply to move it between the evaporator and condenser coils long enough to cause condensation and dry the air. Waste heat from the compressor is also dumped into the room being dried. All of these machines use basically the same components. Condenser coils, evaporator coils, a compressor, and refrigerant. And electricity as the energy source. :S Please don't insult my intelligence

    Edit: And they all rely on the same physics, TPV. You can see the same physics at work just by using a can of compressed air.
    Are you being serious right now?
    I could ask the same thing.
  • unclejohn
    unclejohn Member Posts: 1,778
    Heat pumps work well when the outdoor temps are in the upper thirtys not so much below that. And it usally gets below that. And what would you ratherv do as a mechanic, replace a outdoor unit motor in a snowstorm or a indoor unit motor in a snow storm? Gas valve or compressor change in winter?
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,401
    "Though one thing I believe to be true is the bigger the temperature difference between the evaporator and condenser, the lower the efficiency of the system. Does this still apply to current heat pumps? And if so, do manufacturers currently advertise what a system's efficiency is at 0F, 10F, 20F etc?"

    Quite true -- since the power for the compressor goes up as the temperature differential goes up, while the potential heat transfer per pound or whatever of refrigerant doesn't change much (it does some -- let's not go there right now?!).

    The choice of refrigerant related to the expected operating temperatures is quite interesting -- and somewhat pesky. You not only have to play with the thermodynamic properties of the stuff (for some temperature ranges, for instance, water isn't a half bad refrigerant!) and contemplating the operating pressures involved, but then you have to worry about things like lubricity and compatibility with oils -- and external problems like you'd really rather it no be too flammable or toxic, nor too environmentally damaging... all lots of fun.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853
    unclejohn said:

    Heat pumps work well when the outdoor temps are in the upper thirtys not so much below that. And it usally gets below that. And what would you ratherv do as a mechanic, replace a outdoor unit motor in a snowstorm or a indoor unit motor in a snow storm? Gas valve or compressor change in winter?


    How do you vacuum and charge when its 0F out?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    SuperTech
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,910
    This long thread includes a lot of theory. I was involved in projects to harness waste heat. They worked but payback was iffy partly because interest rates in 70s was so high. There's also the incorrect assumption that heat exchangers last indefinitely.

    Returning to the topic of the title to this thread. Who makes these decisions? Persons who have no idea when you ask them to explain difference between VA and VAR.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 3,526
    ChrisJ said:
    Heat pumps work well when the outdoor temps are in the upper thirtys not so much below that. And it usally gets below that. And what would you ratherv do as a mechanic, replace a outdoor unit motor in a snowstorm or a indoor unit motor in a snow storm? Gas valve or compressor change in winter?
    How do you vacuum and charge when its 0F out?
    As best you can!

    if there’s that much moisture there screwed. Otherwise the drier deals with it!
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853
    edited September 2022
    pecmsg said:
    ChrisJ said:
    Heat pumps work well when the outdoor temps are in the upper thirtys not so much below that. And it usally gets below that. And what would you ratherv do as a mechanic, replace a outdoor unit motor in a snowstorm or a indoor unit motor in a snow storm? Gas valve or compressor change in winter?
    How do you vacuum and charge when its 0F out?
    As best you can!

    if there’s that much moisture there screwed. Otherwise the drier deals with it!

    So you can vacuum and charge and get a heat pump up and running under such conditions?

    I guess the same question applies to cooling for servers etc 
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 460
    jumper said:

    ...Returning to the topic of the title to this thread. Who makes these decisions? Persons who have no idea when you ask them to explain difference between VA and VAR.

    It would be very surprising if no one on this staff knew the significance of reactive power:
    https://agency.calepa.ca.gov/staffdirectory/org.asp?BDO=1&TIER1=OIS
    dennis53
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    edited October 2022

    The market might end up driving this transition anyway - I don't like paying $2/therm and I do like having AC.

    late to the party but couldn't let this go by. RI just raised the all-in cost of electricity to 32¢/kwh cause , you know, those free renewables that we are using because gas pipelines and gas generation is being blocked are so cheap and will lower the price as promised . . . . not (to be fair, a significant cost factor both for NG that bleeds even more significantly over to electric rates is the cost of LNG used to maintain system pressure at times of high consumption because gas pipeline expansions have been blocked. This factor has actually pushed electric generation costs higher than gas costs–plants are either shouldering a significant share of LNG to maintain NG operation at peak consuption or using alternative fuels for interrupt during those times or eletric system operaters are buying expensive wheeled power on the spot market to supplement locally idled NG geneation. LNG is particularly affected because that is how gas to replace Russian supply is going to Europe. I don't begrudge that market impact although we would feel it less if we were less dependent on LNG. At least it is privation borne of implicit sympathy with peoples at war and enduring much more than we vs. the year about 7 or 8 back that the corn harvest came in wet and much of the propane in the country was trucked to nebraska to dry corn to make ethanol. there is some brilliant policy for you. (@Erin Holohan Haskell notice I said policy not politics! :-)

    Yes, we are up to $2.12 a therm for gas but to buy the same amount of energy in kwh would be 29.3*$.32=$9.37!

    This is why California has to ban NG, cause it is still the cheapest thing going by more than 4-fold.

    And people hanging from the belfries touting maybe getting real world 3 SCOP performance from heat pumps operating under favorable conditions apparently don't want to do the rest of the math which shows that a gas boiler at 80% efficient still blows the doors off a 3 SCOP heat pump at those comparative rates. Almost 20% less costly for NG (and NG would be notably cheaper than $2 a therm and have even more of a cost advantage if the infrastrcture for its delivery weren't being blocked by stupid policies meaning no expansion so people use fuel oil or propane or coal stoves for that matter, all higher in CO2! ) If the government wants to do something useful they should be superinsulating houses not banning NG. That is not easy to do except at significant cost to existing housing stock. Instead of giving stupid money to solar and windmill subsidies it should all be used to incentivize insulation and then more options for HVAC would be useful on these insulated buildings and there would probably be a natural migration to heat pumps over time.

    I like that heat pumps can be air conditioners and i'm still positioning myself to install them to operate in favorable conditions with NG or Propane backup (propane is conveniently fairly close to a therm per gallon although various sources report an industry average product as low as .9 therms to the gallon. And Propane is running around $3.00 a gallon and could go higher, although I filled at $2.41 and have 3000 gallons of storage (effective capacity of about 2250). So that means if I really got 3 SCOP a good deal of the time a minisplit could be 30% fuel cost savings. So my propane backup buildings are the first to get heat pumps.

    I was going to jump in this cycle although availability has been difficult and I still think 410A is a lousy choice for refrigerant–more bad policy. They should have stuck with 22 which has less GWP and minimal ODP or use Propane for heat pumping instead of burning! Yes, have to be modest capacity units if splits, but keeps low head pressure and less likely to leak! EPA is now estimating complete refrigerant loss for 410A I believe at 7 years!

    I don't know if I can wait long enough, but i'm kind of liking the bent towards self contained 'chiller' style propane exterior units and hydronic transfer with antifreeze based fluid to fan coil indoors. That challenges the lowest temp performance because of what is inevitably lost in heat exchange deltas, but I'm looking for something simple, really low maintenance, designed for long life so I can spend money and time insulating instead of servicing HVAC. If they don't outlaw me running the gas equipment I have backup installed already.

    If they outlaw gas boilers, only outlaws will have gas boilers. Guess that's me!

    My 2¢. Bank at your own risk!
    SuperTechLong Beach Ed