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Say good bye to gas

12346

Comments

  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    edited October 2022
    JakeCK said:
    ChrisJ said:
    A good hermetic system should be able to last decades easily. HOWEVER. The current equipment I've seen typically lasts 10 years and many evaporators etc leak even before that. Expecting a modern heat pump to go 15-30 years is really, really, asking way too much especially minisplits. Is it possible? Yes, very but it's highly unlikely with the current way things are being done.
    Then maybe some QC and longevity should be put into these energy efficiency requirements. This isn't an inherent issue with the technology but an issue with greed and maximizing profits for shareholders. And it isn't isolated to just heat pumps. Why don't the CI exchangers in new boilers last as long as the ones from decades past?
    jake you ignorant s#&t -just a little SNLhumor there, not trying to go ad hominem- you seem to have this predisposition that anything not working out well us some kjnd of evil corporate machination indicative of market failure . Gee, you don't suppose 410A systems emptying out in a few years has anything to do with government imbeciles essentially mandating a finicky higher pressure refrigerant over a long known and established alternative with minimal ODP and noticeably lower GWP all under an imperfect but relatively widely adopted regime of recovery vs. venting when servicing a system that hasn't emptied itself. By all means though, on to the next 5 year plan. Cant be worse than the last one comrade
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,863


    JakeCK said:


    ChrisJ said:

    A good hermetic system should be able to last decades easily.

    HOWEVER.
    The current equipment I've seen typically lasts 10 years and many evaporators etc leak even before that.

    Expecting a modern heat pump to go 15-30 years is really, really, asking way too much especially minisplits.

    Is it possible? Yes, very but it's highly unlikely with the current way things are being done.




    Then maybe some QC and longevity should be put into these energy efficiency requirements. This isn't an inherent issue with the technology but an issue with greed and maximizing profits for shareholders. And it isn't isolated to just heat pumps. Why don't the CI exchangers in new boilers last as long as the ones from decades past?jake you ignorant s#&t -just a little SNLhumor there, not trying to go ad hominem- you seem to have this predisposition that anything nit working out well us some kjnd of evil corporate mahinationindicative of market failure 

    Gee, you don't suppose 410A systems emptying oyt in a few years has anything todo with government i.beciles essentially mandating a finicky higher pressure refrigerant over a long known and established alternative with minimal ODP and noticeably lower GWP all under an imperfext but realtively widely adopted regime of recovery vs. venting when servicing a system that hasn't emptied itself.

    By all means though, on to the next 5 year plan. Cant be qorse than tha last 9ne comeade 

    The manufacturers claim that, but honestly I don't entirely believe it.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 460
    ChrisJ said:

    …The current equipment I've seen typically lasts 10 years and many evaporators etc leak even before that.

    Expecting a modern heat pump to go 15-30 years is really, really, asking way too much especially minisplits…

    Manufacturing for lowest initial cost rather than durability is ubiquitous today. There’s nothing inherent to any technology being discussed here driving it. Rather, the forcing function of that approach is maximization of manufacturer profit. Nothing else. Give any design engineering team a set of requirements that includes a minimum service life figure assuming reasonable maintenance and it’ll come up with an appropriate solution. Cast iron boiler, modcon, heat pump, etc. Anything.

    There is an interesting tradeoff between three sides of an engineering triangle regarding machinery (and, perhaps, anything else man-made). The three sides are low cost, durability, and performance. It turns out that you can only maximize two of the three at a time -- indeed, some would argue you can only maximize one at a time.,,.

    The problem here is focusing exclusively on direct financial cost while ignoring the societal cost of anthropogenic global warming. And failing to imagine subsidy structures that enable those with less means to afford appropriate machinery.

    ...You...seem convinced we are faced with some existential crisis from carbon emissions. I completely disagree with that assessment...

    We're all entitled to our own opinions. What we cannot base things on are our own fake facts. If you disagree that the reality of anthropogenic global warming is an existential crisis, I cannot hold a serious exchange about banning new gas-fired space and water heating appliances with you. We'd just be talking past each other.
    Larry WeingartenJakeCK
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,128
    edited October 2022
    I won't respond to the ad-hominem. 

    That said I don't believe companies are evil. But the executives of publicly traded companies run off a play book of short terms gains at the expense of long term sustainability and have been for decades. This is driven by the short term investors who demand year over year growth at all costs or heads roll. The executives knowing full well they will run out their time there get there parachute and cut tail are more than happy to oblige. And then you run in to the outright corruption and bribery. Hey if you are only in for a quick buck as an investor your all for it. But those of us who like to invest in companies for decades get killed by this tactics.  

    The result is cuts to quality both in materials and labor. 
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    edited October 2022
    @jackCK so ignore government choice of technology. That worked so damn well with cpsc gas cans. We did this to you for your own good and the fact that they suck is the evil corporations.

    I Dont buy it any more than i buy existential climate crisis by comparison to any other human needs. this is not some fact, it us religious belief that this priority rises so notably above others and by any democratic measure ( which last i looked i thought was the purported hazard or our day), there is zero democratic will to place climate change on some pedestal above other concerns. In fact it holds a much lower position of concern in the democratic sphere. 

    And especially as to its existential nature, attribution of any particularized weather is the factually weakest link in that argument. 

    And purported manifest effects as well as modeled future impacts are consistently overstated.

    Im not married to some view of the earth as in gods hands and  humanity as incapable of macro effects on the environment and climate. Indeed, we have changed the revolution of the earth by our propensity for water storage. Perhaps the largest anthropogenic environmental changes were brought about by the clearing of forests for agriculture.  It is largely understood that the snows of Kilimanjaro were lost because of the denuding of its forested foreslopes for fuel since they have more limited access to fossil fuels and not as some canary in the coal mine of climate change.

    It is certainly possible that some changes we currently note are related to carbon emissions but not that i would consider an existential threat. Yet i dont think were talking past each other because we disagree on that. We are talking past each other when we accuse appliance manufacturing companies of short term profiteering when the predominate problem is government mandate for 410A. 

    Complete stupidity. Completely antiscience. Completely antiindustry, plausibly captured by refrigerant manufacturer but nothing to do with appliance manufacturers and taking the industry backwards rather than forward. Talk about not  entitled to own facts. Epa is the number one violater of anything remotely cost benefit appropriate.

     
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,863
    @archibald tuttle

    Do you feel the EPA has not done anything good for people or the health of the general population since it's creation?


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,416
    ChrisJ said:

    @archibald tuttle

    Do you feel the EPA has not done anything good for people or the health of the general population since it's creation?


    Oh @ChrisJ . That's one of those questions. Almost anyone would say that of course they've done some good. A lot of people would say that they've wildly overstepped both their enabling act -- and the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, on which they base their authority. And then, of course, there also are some who say they should do a lot more, assuming that what the EPA will do is what they want done, which isn't a particularly safe bet.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    WMno57
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,863

    ChrisJ said:

    @archibald tuttle

    Do you feel the EPA has not done anything good for people or the health of the general population since it's creation?


    Oh @ChrisJ . That's one of those questions. Almost anyone would say that of course they've done some good. A lot of people would say that they've wildly overstepped both their enabling act -- and the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, on which they base their authority. And then, of course, there also are some who say they should do a lot more, assuming that what the EPA will do is what they want done, which isn't a particularly safe bet.

    So.
    Ultimately do you feel the EPA should exist or not?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    edited October 2022
    ChrisJ said:
    @archibald tuttle Do you feel the EPA has not done anything good for people or the health of the general population since it's creation?
    Oh @ChrisJ . That's one of those questions. Almost anyone would say that of course they've done some good. A lot of people would say that they've wildly overstepped both their enabling act -- and the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, on which they base their authority. And then, of course, there also are some who say they should do a lot more, assuming that what the EPA will do is what they want done, which isn't a particularly safe bet.
    So. Ultimately do you feel the EPA should exist or not?
    As far as im concerned they should exist to enforce legitmate cost benefit tested regulation and the court decision in the west virginia case is just the beginning of properly trimming their sails relative to their ignoring statutory limits on their authority

    So i don't make the case that just because the Cuyahoga river isnt on fire they should cease to exist but zero people on a hvac savvy list seem ready to debate their role in pushing out R22 and how badly that has actually hurt the push for energy efficiency and electrification with virtually no gain for the ozone layer while adding to GWP, if that is something one is concerned about. That is not an overrun of their statutory power, it is just a stupid myopic decision that we will all live to regret, indeed are living to regret right now.

    So i sure think they should now come in for criticism as withering as that once visited on companies and markets that did not take into account their externalities when the cuyohoga river caught fire. They are ruining are economy for no damn reason

     
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 663
    edited October 2022
    I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaak. Didja miss me? Sorry for my absence. The micro aggressions on The Wall were harshing my mellow, so I went out for a joy ride and pie run. Dutch Apple. About 8 gallons of Dinosaur Juice. How many pounds of carbon was that? Good thing I didn't take the big block. I really should get a Bolt. Maybe someday.
    Larry WeingartenSolid_Fuel_Man
  • random12345
    random12345 Member Posts: 298
    JakeCK said:

    Here are my numbers...

    I looked at my own electric usage last 3 years. It varies a lot. You are using more electricity for sure with that HPWH.
    cowdog said:

    California has much biomass that can be processed into fuel. Wood chips and biomass pellets can replace natural gas.

    I hope you're joking...This is the worst possible scenario. People think air pollution is problematic now, if that happens it will be so much worse.
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 460

    ...If you disagree that the reality of anthropogenic global warming is an existential crisis, I cannot hold a serious exchange about banning new gas-fired space and water heating appliances with you....

    Those who refuse to accept the costs of inaction and then pontificate about cost-benefit analyses cannot be taken seriously.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,416
    Wood chip or other biomass powerplants -- including, on a small scale, wood heat -- are problematic on several counts, although there are some running.

    First, if you are truly thinking sustainable yield, softwoods, such as ponderosa pine, will yield on a sustainable basis somewhere around 30 million BTU of fuel per acre of forest -- around 200 gallons of oil equivalent, Douglas fir is a bit better, but not that much. If we suppose a 100 megawatt powerplant, that works out to around 21,000,000 gallons of oil per year (neglecting the inefficiency of the power plant!):our power plant will take about 106,000 acres of woodland, or 166 or so square miles. Throw in corrections for inefficiencies and it's more like 300 square miles. Peak power demand in California is around 50,000 megawatts; if we suppose that somehow 50% of that is from wind or batteries, That works out to some 60,000 square miles or so.

    That's a decent size chunk of territory. Very roughly, about half of the state. And mind, this is a managed woodlot -- not a nice forest.

    Then there is the air pollution problem. Wood is a complex chemical, unlike natural gas or oil, and as such needs scrubbers for sulphur reduction. It is also remarkably difficult to eliminate fine particulate emissions, so it would need big, high efficiency filters.

    There is also transportation of all that wood, and the production of it.

    Wood is attractive on a small scale, but on a utility scale? Perhaps not so much.

    Then you
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    WMno57
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,128
    edited October 2022
    Here are my numbers...
    I looked at my own electric usage last 3 years. It varies a lot. You are using more electricity for sure with that HPWH.
    California has much biomass that can be processed into fuel. Wood chips and biomass pellets can replace natural gas.
    I hope you're joking...This is the worst possible scenario. People think air pollution is problematic now, if that happens it will be so much worse.
    But yet I'm not. Yes it is using 100kwh a month. But why hasn't my overall usage increased? What caused my household to use less else where? Sure one year is an awfully small sample size subject to seasonal fluctuations but my yearly usage has held pretty steady over the years right about 10-11 Mwh a year.

    And yea the idea of using biomass on a utility scale is a non-starter. I actually chuckled a bit when I read it initially.
  • random12345
    random12345 Member Posts: 298
    edited October 2022

    ...If you disagree that the reality of anthropogenic global warming is an existential crisis, I cannot hold a serious exchange about banning new gas-fired space and water heating appliances with you....

    Those who refuse to accept the costs of inaction and then pontificate about cost-benefit analyses cannot be taken seriously.
    I can't tell if you're being serious. Was this aimed at me? Who's pontificating? This is a discussion. I am agnostic about whether or not global warming is an existential crisis. It's too far into the future, and civilization is changing quickly.
    JakeCK said:

    But yet I'm not. Yes it is using 100kwh a month. But why hasn't my overall usage increased? What caused my household to use less else where? Sure one year is an awfully small sample size subject to seasonal fluctuations but my yearly usage has held pretty steady over the years right about 10-11 Mwh a year.

    And yea the idea of using biomass on a utility scale is a non-starter. I actually chuckled a bit when I read it initially.

    Could be the new solar meter is not as accurate or measuring differently, or the date range is different, or just weather...Could be any number of things. Is this a meter that BG&E gave you (or whoever your utility is, you said Baltimore)? 1200 kwh/yr at around $0.15 = $180. Not sure how much that additional 200 therms of gas cost you though. 180 is not bad for a year's worth of hot water for 4 people. I'd take that deal as long as the install cost wasn't prohibitive. Without telling me your install price and without solar, how many years for payback do you estimate?

  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989

    ...If you disagree that the reality of anthropogenic global warming is an existential crisis, I cannot hold a serious exchange about banning new gas-fired space and water heating appliances with you....

    Those who refuse to accept the costs of inaction and then pontificate about cost-benefit analyses cannot be taken seriously.
    that is just a silly restatement of your first statement. i have never said there are no costs to carbon emission, but it is those who have said time and again, if we don't do x by date y the world will end. We don't do x by date y and, what do you know, the world is still here and they come up with new dates instead of saying. too late, nothing we can do now. so which 'science' which analysis of cost/benefit embodied is to be taken as correct. Especailly since EPA does not have the authority to make the decision at the moment because the clean air act did not contemplate CO2 as a pollutant. perhaps under pure textualism you could try to include the human emitted component although it is quite difficult to establish what that component actually is and what mechansims of uptake leave how much of it to deal with and actually including in that calculus forest and agricultural benefits associated with CO2.

    Instead the imprecise attribution of any costly event, whatever hurricane or fire, is touted as evidence that the cost benefit is off. At root, in a democratic society, cost/benefit is established by what the democratic citizens are willing to pay to alleviate a problem and not on desired outcome science focused so wholly on this issue by the direction of funding and elite opinion.

    Indeed, I ask again, who here thinks R410A was a good idea? We are the grunts who work with this stuff. It sure has made for permanent employment in our industry and ironically the only benefit to R410A that I could possibly see was the idea that it would actualy provide some deregulation in day to day operations in the field. Instead it is just one more substance kept in the walled gardens of the trades which we can quite well maintain that garden by our expertise and professional development without the EPA providing a forever threshold to entry.
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    edited October 2022
    @ChrisJ

    @ChrisJ

    I don't believe I have said that the EPA hasn't done any good for the people or their health. And its method has always been to force change in industry that industry says can't be afforded. But the clear justification for its early actions is in stark contrast to its present mindless devotion to extending the very mission it has accomplished. At the outset it was clear that such challenges to industry had to be made. Now it is clear the EPA itself must be challenged at every turn.

    As I said on the question of whether the EPA should continue to exist. The libertarian me says no, but the Burkian in me says that getting rid of EPA entirely would be the very kind of wrenching change that getting rid of fossil fuels is, to be slow walked regardless of principle (see. e.g. Reflections on the Revolution in France), i.e. something not to be pursued at breakneck pace without alternatives in place where relatively small benefits accrue (and honestly when looking at the world's immediate needs the benefits of climate action are exceedingly small. literally no short term gains and the entire 2nd and 3rd worlds not participating so our own privation is virtually meaningless, unless one prefers a return to self flagellation as some manner of repentence or absolution).

    The next decade or two we will likely be paying a great price in the growth and development of our world toward human flourishing because we are so far over our skis on alternative energy where the alternative is inadequate even as we are switching off the traditional sources. This is insanity. That does make it a close call on the EPA but I support the court effectively enforcing the non-delegation doctrine and not allowing them to extend their own mission based on elite opinion but rather requiring that additional steps they take be legislated rather than fabricated from executive prerogative.

    While this debate as between executive and legislative undertakings is at play in many other political spheres in America, I will stay focused on these areas that affect our trade, as we have tried to keep this discussion civil and returning to how these decisions affect our industry, our individual practice and where our voice should matter in those decisions.

    I'm ambivialent about a HVAC industry campaign for a return to R22 (which is to say i might well join in if there were the least current of reconsideration), but i'm not the least ambivalent about the necessity for us to highlight the stupidity of the push to 410A as a metaphor to guide future direction and encourage more direct participation of those on the ground in this industry and impeach EPA's so-called 'science' or the very idea that industry is conflicted but EPA is not.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,863
    edited October 2022

    @ChrisJ

    @ChrisJ

    I don't believe I have said that the EPA hasn't done any good for the people or their health. And its method has always been to force change in industry that industry says can't be afforded. But the clear justification for its early actions is in stark contrast to its present mindless devotion to extending the very mission it has accomplished. At the outset it was clear that such challenges to industry had to be made. Now it is clear the EPA itself must be challenged at every turn.

    As I said on the question of whether the EPA should continue to exist. The libertarian me says no, but the Burkian in me says that getting rid of EPA entirely would be the very kind of wrenching change that getting rid of fossil fuels is, to be slow walked regardless of principle (see. e.g. Reflections on the Revolution in France), i.e. something not to be pursued at breakneck pace without alternatives in place where relatively small benefits accrue (and honestly when looking at the world's immediate needs the benefits of climate action are exceedingly small. literally no short term gains and the entire 2nd and 3rd worlds not participating so our own privation is virtually meaningless, unless one prefers a return to self flagellation as some manner of repentence or absolution).

    The next decade or two we will likely be paying a great price in the growth and development of our world toward human flourishing because we are so far over our skis on alternative energy where the alternative is inadequate even as we are switching off the traditional sources. This is insanity. That does make it a close call on the EPA but I support the court effectively enforcing the non-delegation doctrine and not allowing them to extend their own mission based on elite opinion but rather requiring that additional steps they take be legislated rather than fabricated from executive prerogative.

    While this debate as between executive and legislative undertakings is at play in many other political spheres in America, I will stay focused on these areas that affect our trade, as we have tried to keep this discussion civil and returning to how these decisions affect our industry, our individual practice and where our voice should matter in those decisions.

    I'm ambivialent about a HVAC industry campaign for a return to R22 (which is to say i might well join in if there were the least current of reconsideration), but i'm not the least ambivalent about the necessity for us to highlight the stupidity of the push to 410A as a metaphor to guide future direction and encourage more direct participation of those on the ground in this industry and impeach EPA's so-called 'science' or the very idea that industry is conflicted but EPA is not.

    Personally, I'd love to see R290 become our primary refrigerant.
    No, I do not feel it's a safety hazard if people are properly trained and equipment is designed half way decent.

    I can't help but feel the fear of refrigerants such as R290 and ammonia isn't somewhat.... intentionally engineered, so to speak....

    Of course, I'm not an expert.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 3,532
    edited October 2022
    ChrisJ said:

    @ChrisJ

    @ChrisJ

    I don't believe I have said that the EPA hasn't done any good for the people or their health. And its method has always been to force change in industry that industry says can't be afforded. But the clear justification for its early actions is in stark contrast to its present mindless devotion to extending the very mission it has accomplished. At the outset it was clear that such challenges to industry had to be made. Now it is clear the EPA itself must be challenged at every turn.

    As I said on the question of whether the EPA should continue to exist. The libertarian me says no, but the Burkian in me says that getting rid of EPA entirely would be the very kind of wrenching change that getting rid of fossil fuels is, to be slow walked regardless of principle (see. e.g. Reflections on the Revolution in France), i.e. something not to be pursued at breakneck pace without alternatives in place where relatively small benefits accrue (and honestly when looking at the world's immediate needs the benefits of climate action are exceedingly small. literally no short term gains and the entire 2nd and 3rd worlds not participating so our own privation is virtually meaningless, unless one prefers a return to self flagellation as some manner of repentence or absolution).

    The next decade or two we will likely be paying a great price in the growth and development of our world toward human flourishing because we are so far over our skis on alternative energy where the alternative is inadequate even as we are switching off the traditional sources. This is insanity. That does make it a close call on the EPA but I support the court effectively enforcing the non-delegation doctrine and not allowing them to extend their own mission based on elite opinion but rather requiring that additional steps they take be legislated rather than fabricated from executive prerogative.

    While this debate as between executive and legislative undertakings is at play in many other political spheres in America, I will stay focused on these areas that affect our trade, as we have tried to keep this discussion civil and returning to how these decisions affect our industry, our individual practice and where our voice should matter in those decisions.

    I'm ambivialent about a HVAC industry campaign for a return to R22 (which is to say i might well join in if there were the least current of reconsideration), but i'm not the least ambivalent about the necessity for us to highlight the stupidity of the push to 410A as a metaphor to guide future direction and encourage more direct participation of those on the ground in this industry and impeach EPA's so-called 'science' or the very idea that industry is conflicted but EPA is not.

    Personally, I'd love to see R290 become our primary refrigerant.
    No, I do not feel it's a safety hazard if people are properly trained and equipment is designed half way decent.

    I can't help but feel the fear of refrigerants such as R290 and ammonia isn't somewhat.... intentionally engineered, so to speak....

    Of course, I'm not an expert.
    I disagree.

    The flammability is a huge issue!

    Yes limited to 6 or 8 oz, times how many units in a commercial kitchen?

    People are "Properly Trained" now and still can't fix $hit! Only a matter of time when some green kid lights that torch without purging.

    R-290 is adding another level of required work (purging with N2 on every repair) that is unnecessary.

    Get rid of the insane energy regulations that allow evaporators to leak in 2 - 5 years.

    We're saving energy by building new equipment every 5 - 7 years and throwing the old ones in the dump, with their refrigerant and oils?

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,863
    edited October 2022
    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    @ChrisJ

    @ChrisJ

    I don't believe I have said that the EPA hasn't done any good for the people or their health. And its method has always been to force change in industry that industry says can't be afforded. But the clear justification for its early actions is in stark contrast to its present mindless devotion to extending the very mission it has accomplished. At the outset it was clear that such challenges to industry had to be made. Now it is clear the EPA itself must be challenged at every turn.

    As I said on the question of whether the EPA should continue to exist. The libertarian me says no, but the Burkian in me says that getting rid of EPA entirely would be the very kind of wrenching change that getting rid of fossil fuels is, to be slow walked regardless of principle (see. e.g. Reflections on the Revolution in France), i.e. something not to be pursued at breakneck pace without alternatives in place where relatively small benefits accrue (and honestly when looking at the world's immediate needs the benefits of climate action are exceedingly small. literally no short term gains and the entire 2nd and 3rd worlds not participating so our own privation is virtually meaningless, unless one prefers a return to self flagellation as some manner of repentence or absolution).

    The next decade or two we will likely be paying a great price in the growth and development of our world toward human flourishing because we are so far over our skis on alternative energy where the alternative is inadequate even as we are switching off the traditional sources. This is insanity. That does make it a close call on the EPA but I support the court effectively enforcing the non-delegation doctrine and not allowing them to extend their own mission based on elite opinion but rather requiring that additional steps they take be legislated rather than fabricated from executive prerogative.

    While this debate as between executive and legislative undertakings is at play in many other political spheres in America, I will stay focused on these areas that affect our trade, as we have tried to keep this discussion civil and returning to how these decisions affect our industry, our individual practice and where our voice should matter in those decisions.

    I'm ambivialent about a HVAC industry campaign for a return to R22 (which is to say i might well join in if there were the least current of reconsideration), but i'm not the least ambivalent about the necessity for us to highlight the stupidity of the push to 410A as a metaphor to guide future direction and encourage more direct participation of those on the ground in this industry and impeach EPA's so-called 'science' or the very idea that industry is conflicted but EPA is not.

    Personally, I'd love to see R290 become our primary refrigerant.
    No, I do not feel it's a safety hazard if people are properly trained and equipment is designed half way decent.

    I can't help but feel the fear of refrigerants such as R290 and ammonia isn't somewhat.... intentionally engineered, so to speak....

    Of course, I'm not an expert.
    I disagree.

    The flammability is a huge issue!

    Yes limited to 6 or 8 oz, times how many units in a commercial kitchen?

    People are "Properly Trained" now and still can't fix $hit! Only a matter of time when some green kid lights that torch without purging.

    R-290 is adding another level of required work (purging with N2 on every repair) that is unnecessary.

    Get rid of the insane energy regulations that allow evaporators to leak in 2 - 5 years.

    We're saving energy by building new equipment every 5 - 7 years and throwing the old ones in the dump, with their refrigerant and oils?


    You're allowed to disagree.
    People not being able to fix anything kind of suggests they aren't properly trained to me. Or are in the wrong business.

    Just so I understand.
    A properly designed hermetic refrigeration charged with several pounds of propane is an issue.......

    But plumbing a 500 gallon LPG tank into a house, more often than not hooked to a stove with zero safety's (can be on, but not lit) is ok? How about that 1940's Chambers and it's pilot light?

    I could be wrong, I could be looking at the situation wrong. It happens.


    You're 100% correct on all of the disposable equipment made to "save the planet". The only thing it's more efficient at is filling landfills.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,128
    pecmsg said: Get rid of the insane energy regulations that allow evaporators to leak in 2 - 5 years. We're saving energy by building new equipment every 5 - 7 years and throwing the old ones in the dump, with their refrigerant and oils?
    How are the energy efficiency regulations allowing companies to make leaky equipment? 
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 460

    ...If you disagree that the reality of anthropogenic global warming is an existential crisis, I cannot hold a serious exchange about banning new gas-fired space and water heating appliances with you....

    Those who refuse to accept the costs of inaction and then pontificate about cost-benefit analyses cannot be taken seriously.

    ...I can't tell if you're being serious. Was this aimed at me? Who's pontificating?...

    Not you.

    ...that is just a silly restatement of your first statement. i have never said there are no costs to carbon emission, but it is those who have said time and again, if we don't do x by date y the world will end...which 'science'...

    Acknowledging some cost while rejecting many of the most significant costs of anthropogenic global warming and simultaneously denigrating science by putting it in quotes, as well as making up fake nonsense about the world ending (no scientist ever claimed it would), is the sillyness. It confirms my conclusion that no serious on-topic exchange is possible.
  • random12345
    random12345 Member Posts: 298

    Not you.

    Oh ok, nevermind then.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,863
    JakeCK said:


    pecmsg said: Get rid of the insane energy regulations that allow evaporators to leak in 2 - 5 years.

    We're saving energy by building new equipment every 5 - 7 years and throwing the old ones in the dump, with their refrigerant and oils?

    How are the energy efficiency regulations allowing companies to make leaky equipment? 



    Manufacturers blame efficiency requirements for the failures and leaks.
    Just like the rotting steam boilers.

    Is it true?
    Not in my opinion but I could be very wrong very easily. It's certainly not my area of expertise.

    But we did have 3 pass boilers in the 1920s-30s that could pull off 80% efficiency and not rott out in 5-10 years. We also had very efficient refrigeration systems that didn't leak, albeit they used much lower pressure refrigerants.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,128
    edited October 2022
    The company I work for manufactures valves, fittings, etc for high pressure applications. Very high pressure. Tens of thousands of PSI kinds of pressure. They are also used in applications where if there is a leak REALLY bad things happen. Our products go into the cooling systems of nuclear reactors, in oil rigs at the bottom of the ocean, or handle toxic fluids that could kill everyone in the room from the smallest amount. They are also used in high purity applications such as in the manufacturing of silicon wafers.(we've been staying busy from this one for a good number of years now :smile:) just to name a few applications.

    Granted our products are not cheap. Actually they are some of the most expensive valves and fittings you can get but in terms of actual manufacturing, it's a our attention to quality and promise that they will work as designed without leaking that makes the difference. At the end of the day we use the same machines the rest of the world uses. Hydromat's, akuma's, acme's index's... And I'd bet the liability the company assumes is also a large part of that price. In other words I do not believe them for one second that the higher pressure of today's heat pumps is the cause of the leaks. In the grand scheme of things it ain't all that high of pressure. Or any thing else they are being forced to do by efficiency standards.

    Full disclosure my opinions and views are my own and do not reflect my employer in anyway, and I am not in any position of authority at my employer either. Figure I would put that out there even though have have not named them. 
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,863
    JakeCK said:

    The company I work for manufactures valves, fittings, etc for high pressure applications. Very high pressure. Tens of thousands of PSI kinds of pressure. They are also used in applications where if there is a leak REALLY bad things happen. Our products go into the cooling systems of nuclear reactors, in oil rigs at the bottom of the ocean, or handle toxic fluids that could kill everyone in the room from the smallest amount. They are also used in high purity applications such as in the manufacturing of silicon wafers.(we've been staying busy from this one for a good number of years now :smile:) just to name a few applications.

    Granted our products are not cheap. Actually they are some of the most expensive valves and fittings you can get but in terms of actual manufacturing, it's a our attention to quality and promise that they will work as designed without leaking that makes the difference. At the end of the day we use the same machines the rest of the world uses. Hydromat's, akuma's, acme's index's... And I'd bet the liability the company assumes is also a large part of that price. In other words I do not believe them for one second that the higher pressure of today's heat pumps is the cause of the leaks. In the grand scheme of things it ain't all that high of pressure. Or any thing else they are being forced to do by efficiency standards.

    Full disclosure my opinions and views are my own and do not reflect my employer in anyway, and I am not in any position of authority at my employer either. Figure I would put that out there even though have have not named them. 


    Never heard of Akuma
    Is that a Chinese knockoff? ;)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,128
    edited October 2022
    ChrisJ said:
    The company I work for manufactures valves, fittings, etc for high pressure applications. Very high pressure. Tens of thousands of PSI kinds of pressure. They are also used in applications where if there is a leak REALLY bad things happen. Our products go into the cooling systems of nuclear reactors, in oil rigs at the bottom of the ocean, or handle toxic fluids that could kill everyone in the room from the smallest amount. They are also used in high purity applications such as in the manufacturing of silicon wafers.(we've been staying busy from this one for a good number of years now :smile:) just to name a few applications.

    Granted our products are not cheap. Actually they are some of the most expensive valves and fittings you can get but in terms of actual manufacturing, it's a our attention to quality and promise that they will work as designed without leaking that makes the difference. At the end of the day we use the same machines the rest of the world uses. Hydromat's, akuma's, acme's index's... And I'd bet the liability the company assumes is also a large part of that price. In other words I do not believe them for one second that the higher pressure of today's heat pumps is the cause of the leaks. In the grand scheme of things it ain't all that high of pressure. Or any thing else they are being forced to do by efficiency standards.

    Full disclosure my opinions and views are my own and do not reflect my employer in anyway, and I am not in any position of authority at my employer either. Figure I would put that out there even though have have not named them. 
    Never heard of Akuma Is that a Chinese knockoff? ;)
    Yea misspelled it. 

    *Okuma
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 3,532
    JakeCK said:
    pecmsg said: Get rid of the insane energy regulations that allow evaporators to leak in 2 - 5 years. We're saving energy by building new equipment every 5 - 7 years and throwing the old ones in the dump, with their refrigerant and oils?
    How are the energy efficiency regulations allowing companies to make leaky equipment? 
    Thinner evaporators  and condensers for a little more heat transfer. What took 10 years for the acid in foods to eat now takes 3 - 5 years!

    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,128
    pecmsg said:
    JakeCK said:
    pecmsg said: Get rid of the insane energy regulations that allow evaporators to leak in 2 - 5 years. We're saving energy by building new equipment every 5 - 7 years and throwing the old ones in the dump, with their refrigerant and oils?
    How are the energy efficiency regulations allowing companies to make leaky equipment? 
    Thinner evaporators  and condensers for a little more heat transfer. What took 10 years for the acid in foods to eat now takes 3 - 5 years!

    Acid in foods? I'm confused now. Do you mean refrigerant?
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 3,532
    JakeCK said:
    pecmsg said:
    JakeCK said:
    pecmsg said: Get rid of the insane energy regulations that allow evaporators to leak in 2 - 5 years. We're saving energy by building new equipment every 5 - 7 years and throwing the old ones in the dump, with their refrigerant and oils?
    How are the energy efficiency regulations allowing companies to make leaky equipment? 
    Thinner evaporators  and condensers for a little more heat transfer. What took 10 years for the acid in foods to eat now takes 3 - 5 years!

    Acid in foods? I'm confused now. Do you mean refrigerant?
    Lemons
    limes
    mayonnaise 
    salsa

    most foods contain some acids. These acids attack the evaporator. 10 - 15 years was normal. Not any more. 
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,128
    pecmsg said:
    JakeCK said:
    pecmsg said:
    JakeCK said:
    pecmsg said: Get rid of the insane energy regulations that allow evaporators to leak in 2 - 5 years. We're saving energy by building new equipment every 5 - 7 years and throwing the old ones in the dump, with their refrigerant and oils?
    How are the energy efficiency regulations allowing companies to make leaky equipment? 
    Thinner evaporators  and condensers for a little more heat transfer. What took 10 years for the acid in foods to eat now takes 3 - 5 years!

    Acid in foods? I'm confused now. Do you mean refrigerant?
    Lemons
    limes
    mayonnaise 
    salsa

    most foods contain some acids. These acids attack the evaporator. 10 - 15 years was normal. Not any more. 
    But how is this affecting the evap coils in an ac system? Are people smearing mayonnaise on their ac system? I want to know these people... Or do I? Lol
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,863
    JakeCK said:
    pecmsg said:
    JakeCK said:
    pecmsg said:
    JakeCK said:
    pecmsg said: Get rid of the insane energy regulations that allow evaporators to leak in 2 - 5 years. We're saving energy by building new equipment every 5 - 7 years and throwing the old ones in the dump, with their refrigerant and oils?
    How are the energy efficiency regulations allowing companies to make leaky equipment? 
    Thinner evaporators  and condensers for a little more heat transfer. What took 10 years for the acid in foods to eat now takes 3 - 5 years!

    Acid in foods? I'm confused now. Do you mean refrigerant?
    Lemons
    limes
    mayonnaise 
    salsa

    most foods contain some acids. These acids attack the evaporator. 10 - 15 years was normal. Not any more. 
    But how is this affecting the evap coils in an ac system? Are people smearing mayonnaise on their ac system? I want to know these people... Or do I? Lol
    You must realize if you can smell something it's giving off gases and mixes in the air?

    I don't know if it's true but it sounds plausible 
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,128
    I'm well aware of that, I just can't believe the small amount you can smell in the air would be enough to rust out the evap coils on anything. What about the fridge? There is a whole lot of food in there 24/7 and the evap coil is subjected to that environment too for just as long. Sure it's much colder in there but still the exposure time is much higher and in much higher concentrations. If the evap coils for a houses ac system can be rusted out in 5 years from the smells of the whole house then the fridge should be gone in months.


  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,863
    edited October 2022
    JakeCK said:
    I'm well aware of that, I just can't believe the small amount you can smell in the air would be enough to rust out the evap coils on anything. What about the fridge? There is a whole lot of food in there 24/7 and the evap coil is subjected to that environment too for just as long. Sure it's much colder in there but still the exposure time is much higher and in much higher concentrations. If the evap coils for a houses ac system can be rusted out in 5 years from the smells of the whole house then the fridge should be gone in months.


    Most 410a evaporators are all aluminum, so no rusting specifically.

    However as far as I know most if not all modern refrigerators use aluminum evaporators as well. So you may have an excellent point.

     Mine use heavy stainless steel sheet metal.  They're non magnetic so I'd assume 300 series but can't be sure.  I don't even know if they had such classification back then.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    edited October 2022
    @Sal Santamaura

    "making up fake nonsense about the world ending (no scientist ever claimed it would), is the sillyness"

    hears a link. you'll love it cause it's fox news which somebody sent to me, I actually don't pay to be able to watch any of the so-called "news" channels. But this is just a convenient recitation. I have AEI's list of 50 such predictions of imminent disaster, much of it focused on climate but there is less explanation and many of the links are out of date or require subscription. But the habit of suggesting the world is at irrecoverable risk if we don't act on climate by a certain deadline is just about a standing headline. Denying it seems much more like the verb than questioning drastic action for climate.

    That said, you suggest "no scientist ever claimed" this. I don't see where I ever suggested who made the claim but rather that the claim was made in the name of science, and scientists seldom speak up to refute exaggerations.

    If you are willing to say Al Gore, Bill McKibben, Prince Charles and various other campaigners are just the blowhards they are but there is some science and reasonable scientists who project negative externalities in the future, that's a fair discussion. My claim was not that scienctists makes outrageous claims (although some have and even in scientific reports like those published by the IPCC, the summaries are prepared by bureaucrats, not scientists and have improperly emphasized risks in my opinion. Each IPCC report nonetheless slowly walks back the most significant claims about the imminence of sea level rise and climate sensitivity to CO2. That is just never reported in mainstream media in any kind of relative way that demonstrates claims have been overstated in the scientific literature. albeit I generally concur that true scientific literature is not the organic source of most apocalyptic claims). Most of those claims are by activists, often conveniently supporting various economic and aesthetic theories they hold irrespective of climate. I thought I was being pretty fair and more civil in using actual quotes and not scare quotes for science.

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 3,532
    JakeCK said:


    pecmsg said:


    JakeCK said:


    pecmsg said:


    JakeCK said:


    pecmsg said: Get rid of the insane energy regulations that allow evaporators to leak in 2 - 5 years.

    We're saving energy by building new equipment every 5 - 7 years and throwing the old ones in the dump, with their refrigerant and oils?

    How are the energy efficiency regulations allowing companies to make leaky equipment? 

    Thinner evaporators  and condensers for a little more heat transfer. What took 10 years for the acid in foods to eat now takes 3 - 5 years!


    Acid in foods? I'm confused now. Do you mean refrigerant?

    Lemons
    limes
    mayonnaise 
    salsa

    most foods contain some acids. These acids attack the evaporator. 10 - 15 years was normal. Not any more. 

    But how is this affecting the evap coils in an ac system? Are people smearing mayonnaise on their ac system? I want to know these people... Or do I? Lol

    Then why are A/C evaporator and condenser coil leaks becoming common? All too common! Rifled, tubing, tubing stretched so it's even tinner for better heat transfer.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,752

    The study seems biased - I’m in Baltimore, one of the case study cities, and it was zero cost to install a heat pump vs the equivalent furnace + AC combination. And now I’m saving 40-50% vs gas. People want AC more than they care about their heating method, for better or worse. The gas value add is lower than proponents believe - otherwise we’d all have gas lines! 

    @Hot_water_fan , I'm in Baltimore too. During the summer, the grid in my neighborhood is so strained that it regularly gets down to 100 volts when everyone's A/C is running, trying to maintain a 20° ΔT between inside and out (source: the UPS on my main computer which has a voltage monitor). If everyone here switched to heat pumps, we'd have a Texas-style disaster in the winter, when the ΔT can get up to 65°- a fact lost on heat-pump pushers.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    edited October 2022
    @ChrisJ and @pecmsg

    thanks for engaging the refrigerant debate. I think there are honest differences as to R290 (and other similar flammable refrigerants, I kind of think maybe R600 is a more likely heat pump refrigerant without supercritical operation still enabling even higher output temps at lower pressures). The key difference to be fair between the thousands of gallons of flammable gas we have hooked up to appliances in the house with almost unrestricted flow is the pressure. it is damn easy not to have a leak at 1/2 lbs.

    Still, the advantage to these refrigerants is, while requiring much higher pressure than for combustion transmission uses they are half or in the case of R600 as low as 1/5 the pressure as R410A in typical heatpump operating ranges. Given the extremely low Ozone Destroying Potential (ODP) of R22 compared to refrigerants phased out earlier, I might favor abundance of caution return to R22 for componentized installations like heat pumps vs. 290. As long as a somewhat effective recovery protocol continued the Global Warming Potential (GWP) of R22 is notably lower than 410A and not likely to be that much of a worry.

    But R600 looks like a real winner from my perspective if one is retentive about ODP or GWP and wants low operating pressures that are easy on equipment and don't lead to likely leaking.

    The thing about regretting the additional work of nitrogen purging is that I always thought that was desirable to prevent corrosion from brazing anyway. But as we move to pressing refrigerant fittings the real field question will be whether press fittings are a lasting improvement over flares or brazing. Obviously they are in the short term. Also, depending on the seal material whether different refrigerants antagonize differently.

    Looking at operating pressures that are pushing 400 psi justs seems to me like a poor choice regardless of whether the problem is field fittings, factory fittings or corroding heat exchangers. Not to mention that my engineering instincts suggest to me that there has to be an efficiency on the pumping end where the pump can be optimized for volume at lower head.

    The other option for those of us intimately familiar with hydronic systems is to make self contained flammable refrigerant heat pumps and pipe transfer fluid with anti-freeze to the indoors . . .

    Maybe we should be glad everyone is getting stuff that is going to need to be replaced as often as 5 year warrantied water heaters so when we get some actually decent technology we can roll into it.

    speaking of water heaters @JakeCK you kind of dismissed on demand, it sounded mostly thinking of electric, although even there I've had success. I can replace a 30 amp electric tank with a 40 amp electric on demand (admittedly for a user who runs one thing at a time) so I need minor upgrade but generally the extra 10 amps does not outdistance the house system. That will run a modest flow shower. That's what I use in the summer in my own house. The gas versions are bombproof (might be a poor choice of adjective :-). I acknowledged they can present system effects for natural gas although those kind of demands are often managed stochastically. And as long as you upsize wetted tank surface they are excellent on propane.

    I absolutely acknowedge that the dehumidification effects vs. the slight basement cooling are tradeoffs some people actually appreciate about heat pump hot water heaters although the initial cost and payback can be a barrier, but less so if it offsets dehumidifier consumption and as electric rates rise (somebody on this thread, sorry, can't remember who or I would tag, said their gas rates were double but their electric rates not so much. We are experiencing the opposite in the northeast where the cost of LNG–because we have whack jobs who oppose pipelines and even liquification facilities to take advantage of excess summer capacity so we must use shipped in LNG competing now with europe–is actually more heavily factored in to our electric rates because the LNG is more needed to back up ramping gas generation when the priority is home heating. So our electric rates doubled, gas is up 30% (of that 30% increase, two thirds is the cost of LNG for system reliability that is charged to gas consumers).

    As to longevity of heat pump hot water heaters, no question that appliance technology once upon a time had a 20 year horizon (I've use a 1940s GE stove that my parents bought used when they got married). I am not actually sure if a lot more quality, care and tank material is input as a necessary accouterment to the extra money one is paying for the heat pump so that it will last long enough to justify its cost (although those decisions are somewhat occluded by subsidies). We just don't have a long enough experience in the field to have a good feeling how that is playing out, nevermind if ancillary controls give up and are expensive to replace. I've noted that happening a couple times in early life of these appliances although not my headaches and I didn't follow how the process was warrantied and whether controls are much of an issue or i just happend to run into a few anecdotes.

    I am also a bit concerned about heat pump heat exchangers with a water side. I ran chillers for years and that was a constant headache. Those had steel barrels. I'm not sure what the heat exchangers are actually constructed of in heat pump hot water heaters although I would imagine it is something meant to be more immune to clogging and/or breech by corrosion although some corrosion is not operationally terminal but affects heat transfer and efficiency and then that other popular techology, the stainless steel plate style, seems to me to require really significant attention to water quality and filtration or it will be subject to significant flow interruption over time (not to mention that rate of flow of refrigerant in these exchangers is a more important calculus to prevent oil deposition). That said, I don't think this is the technology in heat pump hot water heaters but i honest haven't yet cut one up to see whats going on inside. Guess that means most of the ones I see have lasted 2 or 3 years anyway.

    I won't make apocalyptic predictions anymore than I run around citing anecdotes about the failure of generators on wind tower or the life cycle problems of aged out solar panels or windmill blades. These are the natural negative externalities or technologies which if chosen for true efficiency, cost benefit and as alternative to fossil fuel costs and externalities I am totaly fine with if they play on a relatively level playing field. But, I certainly hope given the ratepayer's money getting dumped into subsidizing people getting heat pump hot water heaters that we haven't created a ticking time bomb of infrastructure replacement. Although the subsidized rush to condensing boilers and heat pumps does make me wonder since virtually zero thought seems to go into these programs seeking demand management magic bullets.

  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 1,003
    @Hot_water_fan , I'm in Baltimore too. During the summer, the grid in my neighborhood is so strained that it regularly gets down to 100 volts when everyone's A/C is running, trying to maintain a 20° ΔT between inside and out (source: the UPS on my main computer which has a voltage monitor). If everyone here switched to heat pumps, we'd have a Texas-style disaster in the winter, when the ΔT can get up to 65°- a fact lost on heat-pump pushers.


    I am not concerned. For the worriers, installing a hybrid heat pump is easy enough. If it's a real concern, BGE should pay for the hybrid unit, it is their reliability after all. There's no compelling reason to choose only expensive BGE gas over a heat pump here, given that AC is so widespread.
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,128
    @JakeCK "making up fake nonsense about the world ending (no scientist ever claimed it would), is the sillyness" hears a link. you'll love it cause it's fox news which somebody sent to me, I actually don't pay to be able to watch any of the so-called "news" channels. But this is just a convenient recitation. I have AEI's list of 50 such predictions of imminent disaster, much of it focused on climate but there is less explanation and many of the links are out of date or require subscription. But the habit of suggesting the world is at irrecoverable risk if we don't act on climate by a certain deadline is just about a standing headline. Denying it seems much more like the verb than questioning drastic action for climate. That said, you suggest "no scientist ever claimed" this. I don't see where I ever suggested who made the claim but rather that the claim was made in the name of science, and scientists seldom speak up to refute exaggerations. If you are willing to say Al Gore, Bill McKibben, Prince Charles and various other campaigners are just the blowhards they are but there is some science and reasonable scientists who project negative externalities in the future, that's a fair discussion. My claim was not that scienctists makes outrageous claims (although some have and even in scientific reports like those published by the IPCC, the summaries are prepared by bureaucrats, not scientists and have improperly emphasized risks in my opinion. Each IPCC report nonetheless slowly walks back the most significant claims about the imminence of sea level rise and climate sensitivity to CO2. That is just never reported in mainstream media in any kind of relative way that demonstrates claims have been overstated in the scientific literature. albeit I generally concur that true scientific literature is not the organic source of most apocalyptic claims). Most of those claims are by activists, often conveniently supporting various economic and aesthetic theories they hold irrespective of climate. I thought I was being pretty fair and more civil in using actual quotes and not scare quotes for science.
    I like how you are trying to ascribe as a quote of mine something I never said. I think you need to go back and reread all of my posts. ;) Perhaps you just tagged the wrong person?