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Say good bye to gas

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  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853
    Policy origin

    late Middle English: from Old French policie ‘civil administration’, via Latin from Greek politeia ‘citizenship’, from politēs ‘citizen’, from polis ‘city’.


    Political origin

    late Middle English: from Old French politique ‘political’, via Latin from Greek politikos, from politēs ‘citizen’, from polis ‘city’.


    @archibald tuttle I don't know................... ;)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    edited October 2022

    Very interesting takes by all. As far as efficiency of heating equipment goes I cant see many heatpumps beating a 97% furnace.


    You'd be surprised! Pretty easy for a combined cycle plant + heat pump to beat out the most efficient furnace, as combined cycle plants are about 50% efficient and even the worst heat pumps have COPs of >2 (understanding that of course COPs change constantly).
    nobody builds combined cycle anymore that i'm aware of. NG is all ramping these days to cover intermittent renewables. that is why electricity is so cheap–with all those 'free' renewables.

    Your point still carries weight as a 2.5 COP unit still makes so called 100% efficeincy with a 40% efficient ramping turbine, however my experience is that you don't get nameplate COP in majority of conditions. You need a chart of COPs over ranges of temperature and humidity. Much like condensing boilers give you non-condensing efficiency in the majority of applications and operating conditions where they have been employed.
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    There is a kind of funny current that is HVAC political rather than the partisan sense running here about whether refrigerators are heat pumps.

    I would agree that is unnecessarily semantical and it tends to divert from posters other good arguments. The main exponent of refrigerators aren't heat pumps (I believe @ChrisJ has made the far more utilitarian argument that: "I do not believe my comment, or any of my comments in this thread ever suggested heat pumps or refrigeration do not work. I'm suggesting they do not solve a problem that is being discussed."

    I am in total agreement in terms of present technology available for field application (which is not a simplistic argument that heat pumps don't work below 30 degrees, but that just as so many good cast iron boilers ended up in chinese furnaces with the rush to condensing boilers this push is way over its skis. We are getting some good installations in well insulated buildings where, if your definition of heat pump is akin to the introduction of the 4-way valve, the ability to gain some heat from the AC system easily justifies the increased cost of heat pump vs. traditional AC. Unless a house is superinsulated I would be far less comfortable with complete heat pump service and I think we should focus on TenWolde before we focus on heat pumps but the greens are selling magic bullets whereas systemically addressing an aged housing stock is much more of a challenge than sticking in a minisplit.


  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853
    edited October 2022
    @archibald tuttle

    The real world efficiency of heat pumps is something I can't seem to get an answer to. At least not easily.

    For my area 20-30 would be important as I believe it's the majority of winter weather. But we often do get temperatures that hang around 0F for a week or 2 at a time as well.

    What's a typical COP of a decent minisplit when it's 20F outside? 10F outside? 0F and so on?

    I've tried to find it and gave up. Maybe I didn't try hard enough, I don't know.

    It would be pretty amazing if they can do a COP of 3.0 when it's 0-10F outside.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Dave Carpentier
    Dave Carpentier Member Posts: 410
    ChrisJ said:


    How do you vacuum and charge when its 0F out?

    https://www.popnwork.com/
    and
    https://www.mrheater.com/portable_buddy_heater.html

    I used those for many years when splicing cables with bare hands in -30f days.
    On really windy days finding something to strap the tent to can be a challenge.
    30+ yrs in telecom outside plant.
    Currently in building maintenance.
    ChrisJ
  • unclejohn
    unclejohn Member Posts: 1,778
    @ArchibaldTuttle Becareful remember the paddle boarder.
    California Paddle boarder chased by boat, arrested in Malibu after flouting coronavirus closures.
    Just think what they will do to gas boiler flouters?

  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    unclejohn said:

    @ArchibaldTuttle Becareful remember the paddle boarder.
    California Paddle boarder chased by boat, arrested in Malibu after flouting coronavirus closures.
    Just think what they will do to gas boiler flouters?

    hey @unclejohn , howse the band? I'm worse than a paddleboarder, i'm a kiteboarder so i'm used to being counter culture. not quite a harley but:
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    @ChrisJ yeah, it is hard to get a graph of COP with several moving parameters, temperature and humidity! They just give you one number which is pretty useless for gauging real experience in your micro climate.

    brian
  • fugmin
    fugmin Member Posts: 13
    ChrisJ said:

    @archibald tuttle

    The real world efficiency of heat pumps is something I can't seem to get an answer to. At least not easily.

    For my area 20-30 would be important as I believe it's the majority of winter weather. But we often do get temperatures that hang around 0F for a week or 2 at a time as well.

    What's a typical COP of a decent minisplit when it's 20F outside? 10F outside? 0F and so on?

    I've tried to find it and gave up. Maybe I didn't try hard enough, I don't know.

    It would be pretty amazing if they can do a COP of 3.0 when it's 0-10F outside.

    Here are the specs at different temps for some better models.https://ashp.neep.org/#!/
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853
    edited October 2022
    That link looks highly suspect............





    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    edited October 2022
    @fugmin

    thanks. I tried that link. they seem to have the btu output at various outdoor temps but no COP references. there does seem in data sheets to be kwh consumed at certain specific sample temps, maybe you could back into a COP and its variance with temp that way but why is this a hidden factor and at what temp and operating conditions are they establishing the HSPF. Maybe iirc that is a blended measure? Not sure the extent ot which its contemplates the effects of humidity and defrosting as a part of that blend and i would just rather see a graph although it is complex to represent both changes in temp and humidity in same graph you could have a couple of lines onr dependendent on the relative humidity and one on temperature.

  • fugmin
    fugmin Member Posts: 13
    edited October 2022

    @fugmin

    thanks. I tried that link. they seem to have the btu output at various outdoor temps but no COP references. there does seem in data sheets to be kwh consumed at certain specific sample temps, maybe you could back into a COP and its variance with temp that way but why is this a hidden factor and at what temp and operating conditions are they establishing the HSPF. Maybe iirc that is a blended measure? Not sure the extent ot which its contemplates the effects of humidity and defrosting as a part of that blend and i would just rather see a graph although it is complex to represent both changes in temp and humidity in same graph you could have a couple of lines onr dependendent on the relative humidity and one on temperature.

    I picked a random brand and model. It did list the COPs at different temps down to 5f.https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product/57041/7/25000///0 Granted, I don't know how defrost is factored in or if it is.
  • fugmin
    fugmin Member Posts: 13
    ChrisJ said:

    That link looks highly suspect............





    How so?
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    edited October 2022
    @fugmin I stand corrected. I thought I looked at those very tables yesterday and didn't see a line for COP. Maybe it is because i went there on my phone. I was in the field kicking a stream system in the butt. I did see the the three temp btu output approach. 45, 17 and 5 degrees but i didn't see the lines underneath. might have been how it displayed on the phone.

    As anticipated, other than in the absurdly priced units, the low temp operation is relati ely low COP or really low BTUs or both. What this suggest to me is not to use heat pumps without backup as even an admirable COP of 3 costs more for energy now than gas backup! There is nothing wrong with natural gas and these whack jobs should get over it.

    It's one thing to try to lessen natural gas as the backup for the grid, but they won't do that unless they go to significant nuclear base loads that can pump storage when the wind is blowing or the sun is out kind of thing or they get mass storage related to renewables and they still would have to improve the hell out of the grid which is a big waste of money in my mind because the same technology could let a plurality if not a majority live without the grid and dumping money into the grid makes it a ripe target with all russia's and china's EMPs aimed at us. What we should be doing is degriding. That is going to require for the foreseeable future natural gas and propane and liquid fuel backup. We can use hybrids and electric cars are storage for homes thus reduce fossil fuel consumption, insulate homes and make them more electric while getting them off the grid but when cloudy days line up or the car is actually away from the home more efficient storage than currently available or backup generation are in order.

    This rush to electricfication is being joined by grid operators, distribution companies and big generators all of whom would get a piece while making us more vulnerable. This is why the greens have been able to outflank the little guys in the trenches, by allying with these large corporate interests. Forgetting whether you learn to fix gas appliances or refrigeration (come to think of those aren't actually mutually exclusive) these guys are toying with the industry, creating gaps in service and knowledge that will take years to fill if ever by being so over their skis on this transition.

    And @fugmin , as you point out they do not allow for defrosting which isn't even a really low temp phenomenon. And i can't even get manufacturers or their reps to talk about how they go about this, not because it is proprietary, but because the people I can reach have no clue. I can get a few spurious figures on consumption but I really can't draw a bead on how important this is, but i suspect in damp, e.g. coastal, environments and ironically in mid range climate zones this could be a serious factor.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853
    @fugmin your low post count and the link did look strange.


    My apologies.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    ChrisJ said:

    Policy origin

    late Middle English: from Old French policie ‘civil administration’, via Latin from Greek politeia ‘citizenship’, from politēs ‘citizen’, from polis ‘city’.


    Political origin

    late Middle English: from Old French politique ‘political’, via Latin from Greek politikos, from politēs ‘citizen’, from polis ‘city’.


    @archibald tuttle I don't know................... ;)

    damn, i let this one slip. too clever by half. the root is the same but politics, in my book, is the means of implementation and policy are the substantive ideas. it is the occasional conflict between the two or log rolling necessary that brings about a good deal of irony in the entire proceeding. but don't out me man. i'm trying to sneak this stuff past @Erin Holohan Haskell
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853
    @archibald tuttle

    I'm not positive but I've got a feeling Erin wouldn't even mind politics if it always remained respectful and kind.


    Unfortunately that's most likely not what will happen.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • random12345
    random12345 Member Posts: 298
    Thanks for this link. There is an interesting study they mention in that article: https://nahb.org/-/media/NAHB/nahb-community/docs/committees/construction-codes-and-standards-committee/home-innovation-electrification-report-2021.pdf

    I have requested more data from NAHB so that I could calculate what the additional energy costs would be of an all electric house in my area. The increased estimated construction costs of electrification in that study look to be on the low side for where I live...
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,910

    jumper said:

    ...Returning to the topic of the title to this thread. Who makes these decisions? Persons who have no idea when you ask them to explain difference between VA and VAR.

    It would be very surprising if no one on this staff knew the significance of reactive power:
    https://agency.calepa.ca.gov/staffdirectory/org.asp?BDO=1&TIER1=OIS
    oh there's techies who know but do decision makers listen let alone understand?
  • fugmin
    fugmin Member Posts: 13
    ChrisJ said:

    @fugmin your low post count and the link did look strange.


    My apologies.


    I understand. Not a problem.
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 460
    edited October 2022

    ...I have requested more data from NAHB so that I could calculate what the additional energy costs would be of an all electric house in my area. The increased estimated construction costs of electrification in that study look to be on the low side for where I live...

    Yet again, thinking about the financial cost of mitigating anthropogenic global warming while not keeping in mind the other costs of not doing so. As I posted on the second page of this thread:

    ...This underscores the focus on financial ramifications to the exclusion of others. All the money in the world will not help when ecosystems collapse and human survival is in jeopardy....

    Concerning decision makers:
    jumper said:

    jumper said:

    ...Returning to the topic of the title to this thread. Who makes these decisions? Persons who have no idea when you ask them to explain difference between VA and VAR.

    It would be very surprising if no one on this staff knew the significance of reactive power:
    https://agency.calepa.ca.gov/staffdirectory/org.asp?BDO=1&TIER1=OIS
    oh there's techies who know but do decision makers listen let alone understand?
    Decision makers at CARB do probably listen. They don't need to fully understand reactive power. The technical experts need to translate their own understanding of that concept into terms non-technical decision makers can readily grasp. Such as "if X number of (insert name of appliance here) are connected to the grid, each one rated to draw Y watts, a thing called reactive power means the grid must supply Z watts." That bottom line (which the technical experts can estimate based on power and diversity factors) is all decision makers need to know.
    Demanding that those in government who make all kinds of decisions for us be expert in everything just doesn't work. Especially with respect to matters such as this. Engineering types (I are one) don't tend to seek out "people work" much. The most one can hope for is that they continue to provide the best advice possible and aren't ignored.
  • random12345
    random12345 Member Posts: 298

    Yet again, thinking about the financial cost of mitigating anthropogenic global warming while not keeping in mind the other costs of not doing so. As I posted on the second page of this thread:

    ...This underscores the focus on financial ramifications to the exclusion of others. All the money in the world will not help when ecosystems collapse and human survival is in jeopardy....

    You don't for sure that this will happen. When looking into the future, nothing is guaranteed. On the other hand, banning gas is guaranteed to cause suffering. If whole-home electrification were so desirable, everyone would be doing it. That's not the case.


  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,115
    edited October 2022
    Yet again, thinking about the financial cost of mitigating anthropogenic global warming while not keeping in mind the other costs of not doing so. As I posted on the second page of this thread:
    ...This underscores the focus on financial ramifications to the exclusion of others. All the money in the world will not help when ecosystems collapse and human survival is in jeopardy....
    You don't for sure that this will happen. When looking into the future, nothing is guaranteed. On the other hand, banning gas is guaranteed to cause suffering. If whole-home electrification were so desirable, everyone would be doing it. That's not the case.
    I grow tried of this 'debate' about if CO2 emissions will lead to a warmer planet... 

    THERE IS NO DEBATE, THE SCIENCE IS SETTLED.
    And no amount of fairy tales, denial, and wishful thinking will change that fact. You increase the amount of carbon you blanket over a surface, the warmer that surface will get. 

    The warming effects of CO2 have been well documented for over a century now. We are capable of calculating how much CO2 we are putting into the atmosphere, how much solar radiation the planet receives, how long it takes for the CO2 to cycle out of the atmosphere (carbon sequestering), etc. 

    Ya'll want to look at what the result of excess greenhouse gases is, look to one of our closet neighbors, Venus. Yes it is closer to the sun. But it's the atmosphere that is largely driving it's climate, not being .28au closer to the sun. 

    The reality is that our entire society has been hoodwinked by the petrochemical industry. They used the exact same playbook big tobacco used. Hell they even used many of the same big name lawyers. The biggest difference is that the harmful effects of smoking are visible with in one life time. If you smoke heavily there is a very high likelyhood your immediate family will get to watch you die an early agonizing death. Where as the harmful effects of pumping excessive carbon in the atmosphere and oceans takes multiple century's to cause our agonizing deaths. Humans are really bad at seeming beyond our immediately needs, let alone seeing our needs a century out.

    Everyone likes to talk about following the money. Well follow the money and look at how much companies such as exxon have shoved into the back pockets policy makers.

  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    edited October 2022
    @JakeCK "THERE IS NO DEBATE, THE SCIENCE IS SETTLED."

    I don't agree with that because the implied content is malleable. If you mean CO2 is a greenhouse gas I don't disagree. If you mean we should have zero carbon in a small number of years you are barking up the wrong tree.

    If I took it for the sake of argument to actually extend to the notion that 'Science' says we should not burn fossil fuels, to that I say: THERE WILL BE LOTS OF CARBON FUELS, THE WORLD IS SETTLED. China, India and Africa for that matter have made it pretty clear what they will do about carbon for the next 50 years: NOT MUCH.

    Until the alternatives actually provide similar quality of life at similar cost, fossil fuels will fuel the world. Those elites trying to ban them in US are of the very same coalition that then shows up to complain about the costs to poor people of their very own plans. And their complaints simply result in more of the bill being paid by the middle class. thank you elites, i'll stick with the deplorables.

    There is zero support for zero carbon in the developing world and not even a lot in this country if it costs lots more than lots of carbon. Good thing you're tried of the debate, as this comes perilously close to politics.

    The thing tradesmen can do is the long hard work of improving our housing stock. But if we started today, its going to be a century or more before it is improved enough to do without fossil fuels. And it will take lots of fossil fuels to make the improvements.
    Paul Pollets
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 989
    edited October 2022
    @Sal Santamaura When I advocate for the continued widespread use of fossil fuels, it is not without an appreciation that there are trade offs. While I think those effects are often exaggerated, I think sober reflection at the moment shows that we already have trended toward a lower carbon world but the push for zero is as tone deaf as some kind of outright denial of externalities. And the self same people who make stupid "technology forcing" laws are the first to show up and complain when the policies they promote make energy too expensive for the poor.

    But keeping this focused on the trades, we should know that the notion that first condensing boilers and now heat pumps are some kind of magic bullet to fix this is as ignorant as pretending there is nothing to worry about with business as usual scenario. While I have no fear about ecosystems collapsing or that humanity won't survive, I maintain It is up to us to catalyze the centuries long tedious process of completely refurbishing and rebuilding the vast majority of our housing stock. I don't think of that strictly as a business opportunity. I think the run-up in building costs, fueled in no small part by environmentalist excess means that the lumber to rebuild, the insulation to rebuild, the copper to electrify are more scarce than ever is far more of a structural problem than the continued use of natural gas.

    my 2¢. bank at your own peril.
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,115
    I wasn't arguing that the world can or will abandon carbon fuels quickly or at all. I just tire of the farce that it isn't as bad as we're told(it's actually worse, much worse) and that we can continue on business as usual. Or that we're not some how responsible and that its a natural cycle. If one wants to make that argument, the chicxulub impact was natural too. But it still was the end of the dinosaurs.

    The funny thing about physics and reality is that it doesn't care much for what we want, need, or even if we continue to exist. The world may be settled on carbon fuels but it doesn't change the out come. I can climb up on top of a barn with wooden wings strapped to my arms and believe I can fly all I want. I'm still gonna go splat if I jump.
    Paul Pollets
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,853
    I believe the idea is to reduce the amount of carbon we're putting into the air. Not to cut it down to zero.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 1,982
    ChrisJ said:

    @archibald tuttle

    I'm not positive but I've got a feeling Erin wouldn't even mind politics if it always remained respectful and kind.

    Unfortunately that's most likely not what will happen.
    Yes, @ChrisJ. I'm all for respectful discussion so we can continue learning from one another. It's often tricky to maintain this balance when politics come up though, especially online. We had to set this rule in the beginning because there were too many fights and that wasn't helping anyone.
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
    JakeCKSolid_Fuel_Man
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,329

    ChrisJ said:

    @archibald tuttle

    I'm not positive but I've got a feeling Erin wouldn't even mind politics if it always remained respectful and kind.

    Unfortunately that's most likely not what will happen.
    Yes, @ChrisJ. I'm all for respectful discussion so we can continue learning from one another. It's often tricky to maintain this balance when politics come up though, especially online. We had to set this rule in the beginning because there were too many fights and that wasn't helping anyone.
    @Erin Holohan Haskell, you've done an amazing job of keeping things civil here. Keep up the good work!
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 1,000
    nobody builds combined cycle anymore that i'm aware of. NG is all ramping these days to cover intermittent renewables. that is why electricity is so cheap–with all those 'free' renewables.


    @archibald tuttle Ha I think you need to check your sources - I think almost all new NG is combined cycle. Why wouldn't it be? It's cheap at scale and efficient. Even the older combined cycle plants are getting their capacity factors pushed down by...new combined cycle plants.
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 1,982
    ratio said:

    ChrisJ said:

    @archibald tuttle

    I'm not positive but I've got a feeling Erin wouldn't even mind politics if it always remained respectful and kind.

    Unfortunately that's most likely not what will happen.
    Yes, @ChrisJ. I'm all for respectful discussion so we can continue learning from one another. It's often tricky to maintain this balance when politics come up though, especially online. We had to set this rule in the beginning because there were too many fights and that wasn't helping anyone.
    @Erin Holohan Haskell, you've done an amazing job of keeping things civil here. Keep up the good work!
    Thanks, @ratio!
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 460

    ...thank you elites, i'll stick with the deplorables...

    I cannot respond to any of the on-topic comments you've made in the last few posts after reading this ("elites" & "deplorables"). To do so would unavoidably further the purely political nonsense it attempts to bait people into, which is prohibited here.
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 460
    ChrisJ said:

    I believe the idea is to reduce the amount of carbon we're putting into the air. Not to cut it down to zero.

    If you're referring specifically to California's (and apparently now New York's too) no new gas-fired space- and water-heating appliances by 2030 regulation, that's correct. Ultimately, though, the idea is net zero carbon into the atmosphere -- by 2050. Later than it should be, but much of the world isn't as smart as it should be.
  • ron
    ron Member Posts: 301

    @JakeCK "THERE IS NO DEBATE, THE SCIENCE IS SETTLED."

    ... Ya'll want to look at what the result of excess greenhouse gases is, look to one of our closet neighbors, Venus. Yes it is closer to the sun. But it's the atmosphere that is largely driving it's climate, not being .28au closer to the sun.

    .

    before believing the VENUS = EARTH climate theories/conclusions, might want to consider the fact that (1) venus is a smaller planet, (2) has a 90x denser atmosphere and (3) 96.5% CO2 versus Earth's less than 1% CO2 which is in the rare gas category




  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,115
    edited October 2022
    ron said:
    @JakeCK "THERE IS NO DEBATE, THE SCIENCE IS SETTLED." ... Ya'll want to look at what the result of excess greenhouse gases is, look to one of our closet neighbors, Venus. Yes it is closer to the sun. But it's the atmosphere that is largely driving it's climate, not being .28au closer to the sun. .
    before believing the VENUS = EARTH climate theories/conclusions, might want to consider the fact that (1) venus is a smaller planet, (2) has a 90x denser atmosphere and (3) 96.5% CO2 versus Earth's less than 1% CO2 which is in the rare gas category
    Um... If you were trying to refute my point I fail to see how this helps? The surface temperature of Venus is hot enough to melt lead almost entirely because of the excessive CO2 concentration. Of course it is an extreme example. That was the point. As an in the face example of just how powerful an insulator CO2 can be. It was not a suggestion that was going to be earths fate in any way, at least not for another billion years or so.

    Edit: by the way CO2 is not a rare gas/noble gas.
    It is a mostly unreactive molecule. The rare gases are chemical elements. 
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,115
    edited October 2022
    The noble gas are Argon, Helium, krypton, xeon, neon, and radon fyi. All found on the periodic table. CO2 is a molecule composed of 1 carbon atom and 2 oxygen atoms.
  • random12345
    random12345 Member Posts: 298
    JakeCK said:

    I grow tried of this 'debate' about if CO2 emissions will lead to a warmer planet... 

    THERE IS NO DEBATE, THE SCIENCE IS SETTLED.
    And no amount of fairy tales, denial, and wishful thinking will change that fact. You increase the amount of carbon you blanket over a surface, the warmer that surface will get. 

    The warming effects of CO2 have been well documented for over a century now. We are capable of calculating how much CO2 we are putting into the atmosphere, how much solar radiation the planet receives, how long it takes for the CO2 to cycle out of the atmosphere (carbon sequestering), etc. 

    Ya'll want to look at what the result of excess greenhouse gases is, look to one of our closet neighbors, Venus. Yes it is closer to the sun. But it's the atmosphere that is largely driving it's climate, not being .28au closer to the sun. 

    The reality is that our entire society has been hoodwinked by the petrochemical industry. They used the exact same playbook big tobacco used. Hell they even used many of the same big name lawyers. The biggest difference is that the harmful effects of smoking are visible with in one life time. If you smoke heavily there is a very high likelyhood your immediate family will get to watch you die an early agonizing death. Where as the harmful effects of pumping excessive carbon in the atmosphere and oceans takes multiple century's to cause our agonizing deaths. Humans are really bad at seeming beyond our immediately needs, let alone seeing our needs a century out.

    Everyone likes to talk about following the money. Well follow the money and look at how much companies such as exxon have shoved into the back pockets policy makers.

    The quote I was responding to was "All the money in the world will not help when ecosystems collapse and human survival is in jeopardy...." I bolded that phrase but it was hidden in the quote box. It is impossible to know with any certainty what the consequences of a warming climate on human civilization will be. Considering only the most dire possible future scenarios to the exclusion of any and all other scenarios, and then basing policy decisions on that is foolish.
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,115
    edited October 2022
    I grow tried of this 'debate' about if CO2 emissions will lead to a warmer planet... 

    THERE IS NO DEBATE, THE SCIENCE IS SETTLED.
    And no amount of fairy tales, denial, and wishful thinking will change that fact. You increase the amount of carbon you blanket over a surface, the warmer that surface will get. 

    The warming effects of CO2 have been well documented for over a century now. We are capable of calculating how much CO2 we are putting into the atmosphere, how much solar radiation the planet receives, how long it takes for the CO2 to cycle out of the atmosphere (carbon sequestering), etc. 

    Ya'll want to look at what the result of excess greenhouse gases is, look to one of our closet neighbors, Venus. Yes it is closer to the sun. But it's the atmosphere that is largely driving it's climate, not being .28au closer to the sun. 

    The reality is that our entire society has been hoodwinked by the petrochemical industry. They used the exact same playbook big tobacco used. Hell they even used many of the same big name lawyers. The biggest difference is that the harmful effects of smoking are visible with in one life time. If you smoke heavily there is a very high likelyhood your immediate family will get to watch you die an early agonizing death. Where as the harmful effects of pumping excessive carbon in the atmosphere and oceans takes multiple century's to cause our agonizing deaths. Humans are really bad at seeming beyond our immediately needs, let alone seeing our needs a century out.

    Everyone likes to talk about following the money. Well follow the money and look at how much companies such as exxon have shoved into the back pockets policy makers.

    The quote I was responding to was "All the money in the world will not help when ecosystems collapse and human survival is in jeopardy...." I bolded that phrase but it was hidden in the quote box. It is impossible to know with any certainty what the consequences of a warming climate on human civilization will be. Considering only the most dire possible future scenarios to the exclusion of any and all other scenarios, and then basing policy decisions on that is foolish.
    Actually it is. Let's start with the oceans. They have worked as massive carbon sinks for the past century, absorbing the majority of the excess carbon and the energy imbalance that the warming planet is subject to. The result is Acidification of the oceans. What does this mean? Coral and phytoplankton suddenly have a hard time growing. How does this affect us? Just think, over three billion people depend directly on the ocean for their food. Disrupt the plankton, and you basically cut the legs out from under the entire marine food chain. Now let's come back on land to our breadbasket. Ever look at the relationship between photosynthesis and temperature? The rate of photosynthesis increases steadily as temperature goes up until suddenly it stops and then begins a very rapid drop down to nothing. This is because the enzymes required to produce the sugars break down above 45c/113f. Now this sounds really hot but when you look at projections for the plains and Midwest suddenly a really big problem emerges. And we haven't even gotten to disruptions to precipitation yet.

    Today there are almost 8 billion people on this planet and we already struggle to feed them all. Just look at what the war in Ukraine has done, a largely regional affair... Now imagine if we cut the world's food production to just 1/3 of what it is now. Plus the billion or so people who are displaced by sea level rise. 

    How do you think governments and people are going to respond as they desperately try to cling to life? 
    Something tells me we aren't all going to sing kum ba yah around the cam... Dumpster fire that is our world 

    Ya'll can keep your heads in the sand.

    Is all of this technically solvable? We can adapt, we have the know how and technology. The question is will we? I have my doubts as I sit here reading so many people throwing fits over the prospect of having to switch from a gas appliance to an electric. 
    Paul PolletsAlan (California Radiant) Forbes
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,914
    edited October 2022
    As a final comment on this post! I hope!-- Gas doesn't stand a chance with...

    JakeCKEdTheHeaterMan
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,115
    As a final comment on this post! I hope!-- Gas doesn't stand a chance with...
    Beat you to it. My first comment in this thread was about gas-x lol