If you're wondering why NYC wants to get a heat pump for every apartment, consider this.

KC_Jones

ChrisJ said:

After thinking it over I've come to the conclusion it's all @KC_Jones ' fault.

No.

BobC

This is what happens when people make broad sweeping decisions without looking at all involved.

I have a heat pump on my first floor that i bought when I couldn't get the 14,000 BTU window shaker from the garage to the window on my own anymore. It does a great job of cooling in the summer and handles milder winter days as well but I turn on the steam when that time comes. The performance of most of these heatpumps tends to trail off when it gets real cold out - try explaining that to the wife when she giving you the death glare.

Heat pumps are complex and there is not a lot of real expertise out there. Mine died early last summer and they said the freon was gone but they added enough to keep it limping along. It took over 5 months for them to fix this. I was given all kinds of explanations they were all coverups, the last guy said it was a defective port cover that was allowing freon to slowly leak. So far it's working so I'll just have to hope he was right. I've had steam heat for well over 70 years and never been without heat for more than a few hours because they really are dead simple, even if they don't work as well as they can they make heat when called on

On the gas stove kerfuffle, Just require a safety inspection every time a building is sold or has work done on it and we can catch leaks. next require utilities do there jobs and MAINTAIN their infrastructure. Repairs will be done at the utilities expense, the monies can be got back by clawing back all those bonuses the guys in the corner office got for "sterling performance"

ChrisJ

Everytime you said "freon" I dry heaved a little

GW

Y’all say we can’t get political- I got nothing on this one 

jumper

Gas can become green two. Transition gradually to green hydrogen. Begin with one or two percent in NG. Increase percentage SLOWLY. Distributing electricity is much more expensive than gas. And efficiency doesn't matter if energy to produce H2 is infinite & FREE like wind & sunshine.

wmgeorge

DanHolohan said:

@ChrisJ, I think they see it as getting rid of the boilers/controls/pumps, and everything else that needs PM and never gets it. I know that makes no sense because everything needs PM, but the heat pump will isolate the problem to one tenant at a time (or multiple tenants at a time, of course), but it won't shut down the entire building. Or so they hope.

And then the heat pumps will be running on clean electricity, which comes to us from heaven and needs absolutely no maintenance.

And along those lines, I just read that ConEd has applied for a rate increase (more than 18% to the consumer), so they'll be able to provide more of that heavenly electricity.

How'd I do?

Here is the issue and its all over the US, hard to get young people interested in HVAC and especially with steam heating it adds even more learning. I worked in the trade for nearly 30 years and I was asked to teach at local community college as the teacher who was there did not know diddly. I was there for 12 years, and its hard to get young people interested but the ones that did got very well paying jobs. I even hosted High School classes to promote the HVAC/R field and it did help. My best students BTW were farm kids as they worked on machines all the time. We need to do more to promote these skills.

Jells

wmgeorge said:

DanHolohan said:

@ChrisJ, I think they see it as getting rid of the boilers/controls/pumps, and everything else that needs PM and never gets it. I know that makes no sense because everything needs PM, but the heat pump will isolate the problem to one tenant at a time (or multiple tenants at a time, of course), but it won't shut down the entire building. Or so they hope.

And then the heat pumps will be running on clean electricity, which comes to us from heaven and needs absolutely no maintenance.

And along those lines, I just read that ConEd has applied for a rate increase (more than 18% to the consumer), so they'll be able to provide more of that heavenly electricity.

How'd I do?

Here is the issue and its all over the US, hard to get young people interested in HVAC and especially with steam heating it adds even more learning. I worked in the trade for nearly 30 years and I was asked to teach at local community college as the teacher who was there did not know diddly. I was there for 12 years, and its hard to get young people interested but the ones that did got very well paying jobs. I even hosted High School classes to promote the HVAC/R field and it did help. My best students BTW were farm kids as they worked on machines all the time. We need to do more to promote these skills.

We've let the education system tell parents and kids that the only reasonable goal is college, even when you can make more money and perhaps have more satisfaction in the trades. I have a relative with 2 ivy degrees and 30 years in their profession who doesn't break $100k like most decent master tradesmen would much sooner.

I had a tenant who had gone to college, gotten a 'communications' degree and was working as a bartender. But his father was a fireman who moonlighted as a painter, and the kid had learned from him and painted for me when I needed it. He was good. But would he consider going all in as a housepainter and make good money, and not be working nights when his wife was expecting? No. Somehow that seemed like stepping back to him.

wmgeorge

I had collage grads come into my program, because as you pointed out above, .they could not get a job. I took a big pay cut when I started teaching but it was I wanted to do. Took about 5 years to get back to my normal salary.

We need to promote the Skilled Trades. Our union fitters who do HVAC/R Service like I did are making 70 -80,000 per year, specialize way more. I did DDC and other controls.

ratio

At the risk of moving even more OT, these graphs are interesting: https://flowingdata.com/2022/01/26/how-much-americans-make

Once we get to middle age, our incomes don’t change that much? You stay in the same ballpark? I guess I’m not going to get that yacht.

If more people saw this trend, maybe they'd work harder out of the gate, to get further along before things ossified.

BobC

I couldn't agree more, kids get steamrolled into college and many spend a small fortune for a degree that just isn't going to lead to a good job. They are then saddled with debt and many never get out from under it.

Many would be better off in the trades where they can make a decent living and find work pretty easily. I went from HS to the army and then worked as a technician for a small manufacturing company, over the course of a couple of decades I went from tech to engineer and then into management with nothing more than that HS diploma. That was a different time when what counted was willingness to work and your ability. When the powers that be sent that job over to Asia I used all that experience to get a job repairing machinery and slid off into retirement at 62 with zero debt.

I never got rich, I always made enough money, and I was never out of work for more than a week. I see too many spinning their wheels looking to get rich quick, slow and steady wins the only race that counts.

Bob

ChrisJ

SlamDunk

@ChrisJ , this isn't too far off topic...It is hard to get technical support anywhere in this country but maybe especially so in NYC. The idea of installing 177K heat pump units without any discussion about support is incompetent. I agree with @wmgeorge about farm kids being more mechanically inclined than city kids. City kids have more throwaway stuff that can't be worked on. They (we) may earn our drivers license at 16-17 but we don't buy cars until much later, if at all. I bought my first car after freshman year in college. I was a damned, awful driver at 19-20!

City kids have very little opportunity to work on anything bigger than a bike. And, since these units will be in a city, and there aren't enough farm kids around the city, who will work on these things? Training people should be part of the equation.

clammy

A vast array of options here , kinda funny about no body entering the trades I chaulk it up to the fact that even thought I think of it as the noblest of trades ( steam stuff) I consider the rest of hvac as a usually a bunch of hacks ( at least from a lot of the work I am exposed too ) and I highly doubt many youth would want to take part in this exciting profession and all the great fun it entails , long hours ,getting greasy and dirty ,wearing out your knees and joints and not in fashion any more w all the pc stuff but getting your butt chewed out for anything stupid u might do which is guaranteed . I can not fault any parent w sending there children to college for 4 years but they always seem surprised when they come back home to leech off there parents for a few more years and really have no plan except that there big accomplishment of completing college and possibly a brain washing program while getting there parents to pay . This is why no enters the trades plus the youth today do not want to crawl get dirty they just want the money to appear out of thin air . As for nyc and it’s heat pump fiasco like Atlantas which disappeared into the sea nyc housing and public assistance will sooner or later return to the sea . I firmly believe that you can only help people so much and the rest is putting in the work to better yourself . After what 75 years of nyc housing you think they would get something correct , you can forget about it , it’s all a horse and donkey show and way sooner then later they will be in at landfill . Without any maintance I can only see a 5 to 10 year max life span on these systems why because there only listed as a appliance which only have a 10 year span . A typically for nyc , tree Huggers and save the worlders w absolute no real world experiences just based on bull . All improvements in anything start w a level playing field removing steam and installing mini splits really sounds idiotic as I see it and I have to agree on repairs and maintenance neither one will be done just replace it w new that would be the greenest thing to do . I also would image except for in house who would want to deal w getting paided by nyc you most likely would wait 6 months for payment after jumping through hoops and about 60 phone calls for a check for a couple of hundred ona service call you would have to be brain dead . This is why so many will not bid or replace boilers in nyc housing there’s plently of replacement jobs in the nyc housing but who and how u getting Paided and when .
I stick out here in the semi woods do what I can for those who are serious about repairs replacement and service and not wasting my time . I ve clearly had way to much of that and have seemly ended wasting my time w those who only know how to do that and are not serious .
That’s the end of my rants lol peace and good luck clammy

wmgeorge

Back kind of on subject, we have a 10 story building that I was elected to go and help straighten out, not steam but I will outline the issues. Built in 1954 and had one of the few as I understand of these systems designed by Carrier. Large AHU that took in 100% outside air and tempered the air either with a HW coil or in the summer a 100 Ton Carrier AC Recp compressor. Apartments had fan coil units served by either HW or Chilled water, no fan the air flow coming from the large AHU. Leaving a Lot of details out... the system was marginal even when working good.

The plan purposed by the Carrier folks, do away with the fan coil units and large air handler and put in each room a water source HP using the same water piping. Big draw back like pointed out above... not enough electrical service to the rooms, or the building.

Jamie Hall

People have mentioned farm kids... and they are so right, on at least two counts. First, perhaps, they grew up (like me, many many moons ago) around machinery of all sizes and shapes, and were encouraged to tinker with it. Most farm kids learn to drive as soon as they can reach the controls -- perhaps around 8 or 10. So there is that. But --there is another factor. They learn, at a very early age (and this is still true) that the work is tough, and the rewards are uncertain, but that doing the job and doing it right is worth the effort. There is a great satisfaction, just to take one example, of pulling the last hay wagon in just at sunset and knowing that you did a good job. Even though you are tired, sweaty, likely hungry, sun-burned, and whatever. If the combine or the baler broke down, you got out there and fixex it -- you didn't have a choice; the work had to get done. City kids never get that reward. City kids have very little opportunity to get that work ethic.

Trouble is, there aren't too many farm kids left. There aren't too many farm families left. It's going to be interesting...

ChrisJ

Regardless,
How does any of this change anything?

Heat pumps still need to be installed by someone competent.

Heat pumps still need maintained, if not more so than other types of heating equipment. And when they fail, they need someone competent and good with their hands to repair them and if not, again replacement isn't something just anyone can do.

So replacing boilers, furnaces etc with heat pumps isn't solving that problem.


Unless we're talking window units......then I guess that kind of gets around that issue to an extent. We all saw how Kramer installed a window unit for 5 minutes.

cross_skier

I think we are headed to throw away window units.  They will be a part of the network of things.  When you enter a room the unit detects your smart phone and kicks into gear.  When you are not in room units fall back to standby settings. 

ChrisJ

cross_skier said:

I think we are headed to throw away window units.  They will be a part of the network of things.  When you enter a room the unit detects your smart phone and kicks into gear.  When you are not in room units fall back to standby settings. 

Well,
We're already at throw away boilers and everything else...

wmgeorge

Well they will do what they do in motel/hotel PTAC units, make them fit a permanent sleeve in the outside wall. Unplug, Slide out, slide in and spares in the shop. When you get a decent pile call the service company. Filter changes by the unskilled folks. Only issue... you need to update the electrical.

cross_skier

If 80 percent are on standby and they are smart enough to manage the load between units, upgraded electrical wouldn't be necessary except on the coldest days of the year

ChrisJ

cross_skier said:

If 80 percent are on standby and they are smart enough to manage the load between units, upgraded electrical wouldn't be necessary except on the coldest days of the year

So on the coldest days we just trip breakers, or?

Jells

You know, stupidity of replacing the steam aside, done right the maintenance issue could be a huge public service opportunity. For 177,000 units, they could create their own HVAC training academy for kids growing up in public housing. Require them to work for 5 years or something in the system, and then they're free to go pursue the trade elsewhere. How many full-time techs do you think that many units requires? 30? More?

SlamDunk

@clammy brings up a good point about how fast NYCHA authority pays the bills. Our local housing authority is famous about not paying in a timely manner. Or, looking for the lowest bidder and not paying in a timely manner. They are always on a shoestring budget.

cross_skier

I think the poor people would be uncomfortable on the coldest days of the year without electrical upgrades even with using the smartest Wifi heat pumps.  So IMO any marketing/PR campaign against heat pumps should focus on that failure.

wmgeorge

Insulation. Take out the single pane windows and replace, insulate the side walls. More skills required and putting people to work. Forget GWP and keep Natural gas.

clammy

I guess sleeve type heat pumps would be installed so there’s a lot of fudge money for installing those sleeves ,most likely take years to get them all installed by the time that was done the money for the units would be long gone . The big upside I see is there is no service really required ,when things malfunction you unplug the unit , slide them out slide a new one in perfect ,it requires the perfect amount of skill 0 . No need to recover just toss there disposal w a 10 year max life span .what a great retirement plan to have a piece of that replacement unit sales for all nyc now collecting may be long toothed but still nice say 3% . Lol peace and good luck clammy

Jamie Hall

When I was a kid growing up, one of my greatgrandparents -- born before the Civil War -- had a saying she used to mutter from time to time:

"Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without".

Our modern society is really good on the use it up and throw it out... doesn't anyone see the problem?

Jells

Jamie Hall said:

When I was a kid growing up, one of my greatgrandparents -- born before the Civil War -- had a saying she used to mutter from time to time:

"Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without".

Our modern society is really good on the use it up and throw it out... doesn't anyone see the problem?

Are you a commie or something, our great capitalist economy is based entirely on consumption! Some people feel deprived if their car is more than 3 years old. There's not a household appliance that's designed to last more than a decade, if you're lucky. I just replaced a 2009 washer and was told I got a good run from it.

ChrisJ

Jells said:

Jamie Hall said:

When I was a kid growing up, one of my greatgrandparents -- born before the Civil War -- had a saying she used to mutter from time to time:

"Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without".

Our modern society is really good on the use it up and throw it out... doesn't anyone see the problem?

Are you a commie or something, our great capitalist economy is based entirely on consumption! Some people feel deprived if their car is more than 3 years old. There's not a household appliance that's designed to last more than a decade, if you're lucky. I just replaced a 2009 washer and was told I got a good run from it.

My fridges are doing alright.
I think they had a pretty good run so far.

Jells

ChrisJ said:

Jells said:

Jamie Hall said:

When I was a kid growing up, one of my greatgrandparents -- born before the Civil War -- had a saying she used to mutter from time to time:

"Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without".

Our modern society is really good on the use it up and throw it out... doesn't anyone see the problem?

Are you a commie or something, our great capitalist economy is based entirely on consumption! Some people feel deprived if their car is more than 3 years old. There's not a household appliance that's designed to last more than a decade, if you're lucky. I just replaced a 2009 washer and was told I got a good run from it.

My fridges are doing alright.
I think they had a pretty good run so far.

My 2008 Samsung fridge is on it's 3rd motherboard, I discovered after the 1st service call that they're easy to replace. It also doesn't like to stay closed. Had to replace the 2008 GE range and Whirlpool dishwasher 2 years ago.

ChrisJ

Jells said:

ChrisJ said:

Jells said:

Jamie Hall said:

When I was a kid growing up, one of my greatgrandparents -- born before the Civil War -- had a saying she used to mutter from time to time:

"Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without".

Our modern society is really good on the use it up and throw it out... doesn't anyone see the problem?

Are you a commie or something, our great capitalist economy is based entirely on consumption! Some people feel deprived if their car is more than 3 years old. There's not a household appliance that's designed to last more than a decade, if you're lucky. I just replaced a 2009 washer and was told I got a good run from it.

My fridges are doing alright.
I think they had a pretty good run so far.

My 2008 Samsung fridge is on it's 3rd motherboard, I discovered after the 1st service call that they're easy to replace. It also doesn't like to stay closed. Had to replace the 2008 GE range and Whirlpool dishwasher 2 years ago.

Yeah,
I don't have that problem.

Mine just keep going and going.
Like I said, I think they've had a pretty good run so far.

jumper

cross_skier said:

I think we are headed to throw away window units.  They will be a part of the network of things.  When you enter a room the unit detects your smart phone and kicks into gear.  When you are not in room units fall back to standby settings. 

Certainly many hotels & motels do that. Through the wall actually. I tried selling water source as quieter, more energy efficient, and durable. Some enthusiasm but not enough.

MaxMercy

Jells said:

My 2008 Samsung fridge is on it's 3rd motherboard, I discovered after the 1st service call that they're easy to replace. It also doesn't like to stay closed. Had to replace the 2008 GE range and Whirlpool dishwasher 2 years ago.

I built my house in 1993. I still have the original Whirlpool stove and fridge, both trouble free. My buddy is in the appliance business and told me to hold onto the fridge particularly as it has an American made compressor. The new Chinese compressors last 2-8 years at best.

In the back of my work shop, I have a 1947 GE refrigerator that my dad bought used on the side of the road 50 years ago. Someone has to explain to me how something with a motor and compressor can run trouble free and do so continuously for 70 years without a failure. The only sound it makes is a tiny "ting" sound when the thermostat clicks. Still ice cold.

John

Jamie Hall

Fundamentally a tradeoff between cost, efficiency, durability, and fancy features. Fancy features raise cost without necessarily affecting either efficiency or durability. Raising either efficiency or durability also raise cost. An extreme example -- Voyager I is still going strong, 45 years after launch. It wasn't cheap. A smart phone may last two to three years and is real fancy but is relatively cheap. The refrigerators you mention were both expensive in the day, and were kind of short on fancy features and aren't as efficient as new ones, but they'll likely outlast you. The ones you buy now have the features, but they've traded durability for efficiency and features to hold the cost. And so on.

jumper

Old refrigerators lasted a long time but the ones that cannot die are from the far right of the longevity bell curve. Eventually insulation breaks down and touching the 'fridge thrills when it's running. Not repairable. Stubborn owners open with a towel trying to set a record.

ChrisJ

jumper said:

Old refrigerators lasted a long time but the ones that cannot die are from the far right of the longevity bell curve. Eventually insulation breaks down and touching the 'fridge thrills when it's running. Not repairable. Stubborn owners open with a towel trying to set a record.

Well, several things.
First, I know a few guys who can, and do repair them. So saying it's not repairable is false.
Second, none of mine have any insulation issues at this time.

My main one is 89 years old and counting and has no problems being plugged into a GFCI receptacle.

Will they last forever?
I highly doubt it, but they're doing a whole lot better than anything I've seen made in my life time and cheaper to run too.

wmgeorge

Those old compressors ran at 1800 rpm or maybe less 900? . New ones run at 3600, the Chinese can not make leak free joints and the refrigerant is gone within 3 years or so. My aunt and uncle had the same refrigerator made in the 1940s.

ChrisJ

wmgeorge said:

Those old compressors ran at 1800 rpm or maybe less 900? . New ones run at 3600, the Chinese can not make leak free joints and the refrigerant is gone within 3 years or so. My aunt and uncle had the same refrigerator made in the 1940s.

1750 rpm.
With oil pumps, pressurized bearings and unloaders.

Jells

Jamie Hall said:

 A smart phone may last two to three years and is real fancy but is relatively cheap. 

What blows my mind is that an oem oven igniter, just a stamped chunk of metal embedded in ceramic with a couple of wires, can run you $120, and for that money you can get a usable smartphone with all the incredibly complex technology that entails. I'm still trying to figure out what this says about our globalized economy.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I am still waiting to see the cost of the electrical upgrades they will need to do