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If you're wondering why NYC wants to get a heat pump for every apartment, consider this.

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  • Jells
    Jells Member Posts: 566
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    I am still waiting to see the cost of the electrical upgrades they will need to do
    My wife used to do social work visits in the projects, and says these places are built like bunkers. They're like concrete walls not plasterboard. I have no idea how they would wire this stuff, maybe conduit on the surface. I can't imagine the cost to upgrade these places to be less per unit then the actual PTAC cost.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,776
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    Jells said:
    I am still waiting to see the cost of the electrical upgrades they will need to do
    My wife used to do social work visits in the projects, and says these places are built like bunkers. They're like concrete walls not plasterboard. I have no idea how they would wire this stuff, maybe conduit on the surface. I can't imagine the cost to upgrade these places to be less per unit then the actual PTAC cost.
    Conduit?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    wmgeorgedelcrossv
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 748
    edited February 2022
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    Fundamentally a tradeoff between cost, efficiency, durability, and fancy features. Fancy features raise cost without necessarily affecting either efficiency or durability. Raising either efficiency or durability also raise cost. An extreme example -- Voyager I is still going strong, 45 years after launch. It wasn't cheap. A smart phone may last two to three years and is real fancy but is relatively cheap. The refrigerators you mention were both expensive in the day, and were kind of short on fancy features and aren't as efficient as new ones, but they'll likely outlast you. The ones you buy now have the features, but they've traded durability for efficiency and features to hold the cost. And so on.

    No, as fridges in the 20's -50's weren't a significantly larger percentage of income than now. What happened is companies found that they could make a lot more profit selling stuff that breaks and sold that bill of goods to consumers.

    Planned Obsolescence. It's infected pretty much every industry.
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,776
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    delcrossv said:
    Fundamentally a tradeoff between cost, efficiency, durability, and fancy features. Fancy features raise cost without necessarily affecting either efficiency or durability. Raising either efficiency or durability also raise cost. An extreme example -- Voyager I is still going strong, 45 years after launch. It wasn't cheap. A smart phone may last two to three years and is real fancy but is relatively cheap. The refrigerators you mention were both expensive in the day, and were kind of short on fancy features and aren't as efficient as new ones, but they'll likely outlast you. The ones you buy now have the features, but they've traded durability for efficiency and features to hold the cost. And so on.
    No, as fridges in the 20's -50's weren't a significantly larger percentage of income than now. What happened is companies found that they could make a lot more profit selling stuff that breaks and sold that bill of goods to consumers. Planned Obsolescence. It's infected pretty much every industry.
    Careful there.
    1920s they were a fortune.

    But the early 30s they had dropped,I think my 1933 was the equivalent to around $3k today but it's small.  

    But by the 1940s-50s yeah prices were very reasonable and they were still very good machines.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    delcrossv
  • jad3675
    jad3675 Member Posts: 127
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    Jells said:


    In the back of my work shop, I have a 1947 GE refrigerator that my dad bought used on the side of the road 50 years ago. Someone has to explain to me how something with a motor and compressor can run trouble free and do so continuously for 70 years without a failure. The only sound it makes is a tiny "ting" sound when the thermostat clicks. Still ice cold.

    John

    I have a 1951 Sears/Kenmore Coldspot fridge. Icebox in the top corner. If I set the temp to 'coldest' I'll end up with exploded cans of sparkling water. I've had it for...20 years, and the only thing I've had to replace is the cord.

    It's the one on the right of this catalog page. It's right around $1600 in today's dollars.




    delcrossv
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 748
    edited February 2022
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    ChrisJ said:


    delcrossv said:

    Fundamentally a tradeoff between cost, efficiency, durability, and fancy features. Fancy features raise cost without necessarily affecting either efficiency or durability. Raising either efficiency or durability also raise cost. An extreme example -- Voyager I is still going strong, 45 years after launch. It wasn't cheap. A smart phone may last two to three years and is real fancy but is relatively cheap. The refrigerators you mention were both expensive in the day, and were kind of short on fancy features and aren't as efficient as new ones, but they'll likely outlast you. The ones you buy now have the features, but they've traded durability for efficiency and features to hold the cost. And so on.

    No, as fridges in the 20's -50's weren't a significantly larger percentage of income than now. What happened is companies found that they could make a lot more profit selling stuff that breaks and sold that bill of goods to consumers.

    Planned Obsolescence. It's infected pretty much every industry.


    Careful there.
    1920s they were a fortune.

    But the early 30s they had dropped,I think my 1933 was the equivalent to around $3k today but it's small.  

    But by the 1940s-50s yeah prices were very reasonable and they were still very good machines.
    OK, might have started too early (new items are expensive), but you get my point. You won't get an equivalently priced fridge today that will last 70 years. Same with washers, dryers etc, etc.
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • HydroNiCK
    HydroNiCK Member Posts: 182
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    @DanHolohan
    The first problem is this is taking place in a bizarre world called Civil Service.   Nothing will change. However if this does come to fruition its going to go horribly wrong.
      DanHolohan said:
    @TimSmith, the whole thing is nuts. Jake Myron summed it up in another thread a few weeks ago. He was in the middle of this for years at NYC Housing, and I was with him for a bunch of that time, looking at things that didn't work simply because there was no one who could fix them except for guys like Jake. And then they all retired and we now have what those news articles are about, and we have the same situation every winter. It's ridiculous what the tenants have to put up with, and the City sees the only solution as being the heat pumps. But as you bring up, who is going to maintain those? And at $3,000 per, does this even begin to make any sense
  • Jells
    Jells Member Posts: 566
    edited February 2022
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    ChrisJ said:


    Conduit?

    I'm sure you've heard of it, it's a pipe they run cables through when you can't run it inside the walls. Similar to Wiremold.

    /s
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 748
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    Jells said:

    ChrisJ said:


    Conduit?

    I'm sure you've heard of it, it's a pipe they run cables through when you can't run it inside the walls. Similar to Wiremold.

    /s
    Surface mount EMT? How "industrial". :smile:
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,649
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    delcrossv said:

    Planned Obsolescence. It's infected pretty much every industry.

    I've mentioned this before, but I don't see it as a bunch of CEOs (or whoever) sitting around saying "let's make it break after a few years". It's a lot easier to explain it along the lines of "let's make it cheap enough that everyone will want to buy it". Failing after a short life is a side benefit of making it cheaper, but not a design goal.

    It may look like splitting hairs, but it better describes the place we're in, & it makes clear the path out…

    ethicalpaullkstdl
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,776
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    ratio said:

    delcrossv said:

    Planned Obsolescence. It's infected pretty much every industry.

    I've mentioned this before, but I don't see it as a bunch of CEOs (or whoever) sitting around saying "let's make it break after a few years". It's a lot easier to explain it along the lines of "let's make it cheap enough that everyone will want to buy it". Failing after a short life is a side benefit of making it cheaper, but not a design goal.

    It may look like splitting hairs, but it better describes the place we're in, & it makes clear the path out…

    No,
    That would take too much effort honestly.

    I think it all falls under things being made "good enough" and then stuff just fails.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,590
    edited February 2022
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    ratio said:

    delcrossv said:

    Planned Obsolescence. It's infected pretty much every industry.

    I've mentioned this before, but I don't see it as a bunch of CEOs (or whoever) sitting around saying "let's make it break after a few years". It's a lot easier to explain it along the lines of "let's make it cheap enough that everyone will want to buy it". Failing after a short life is a side benefit of making it cheaper, but not a design goal.

    It may look like splitting hairs, but it better describes the place we're in, & it makes clear the path out…

    No, but I worked for a small manufacturing company that made industrial equipment. Historically, designs were 25% more robust than necessary. Never had a problem. The equipment lasted forever. The CEO says "we're giving away 25% for free. We can't be competitive if we charge 25% more, so engineer out that extra 25%". That was a mistake. Warranty costs sky rocketed and within five years the company was sold to a competitor.

    The father, the first CEO, was an engineer, dictated the extra 25% back in the fifties. The son, who became CEO in the early 90's, was a business man. The company was sold in 2004.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
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  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,729
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    I do find it interesting that people are so concerned with how will some new technology possibly work, when the existing systems aren't working anyway.
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    SlamDunkwmgeorgeCLamb
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 748
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    I'll have to disagree with you guys. Increasing quarterly profits is meat and potatoes to corporate execs. That's driven by analysts and institutional investors who are the big players. Planned obsolescence drives profits and I'm convinced it's a design goal.

    If you sell someone a fridge, and they don't buy another for 40 years, where's the profit in that? Pretty obvious what the drivers are.
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,776
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    delcrossv said:

    I'll have to disagree with you guys. Increasing quarterly profits is meat and potatoes to corporate execs. That's driven by analysts and institutional investors who are the big players. Planned obsolescence drives profits and I'm convinced it's a design goal.

    If you sell someone a fridge, and they don't buy another for 40 years, where's the profit in that? Pretty obvious what the drivers are.

    I don't think you're actually disagreeing in this case.

    The difference is I don't think anyone technically "engineers it to last X amount of years".
    To an extent, they have figured out how much they can get away with and that's what they do.

    The modern stuff is designed terrible, plain and simple.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    delcrossvratio
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,776
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    @delcrossv I know it's kinda splitting hairs.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ratio
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 748
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    ChrisJ said:

    @delcrossv I know it's kinda splitting hairs.

    No worries. :)
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • Jells
    Jells Member Posts: 566
    edited February 2022
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    SlamDunk said:
    Planned Obsolescence. It's infected pretty much every industry.
    I've mentioned this before, but I don't see it as a bunch of CEOs (or whoever) sitting around saying "let's make it break after a few years". It's a lot easier to explain it along the lines of "let's make it cheap enough that everyone will want to buy it". Failing after a short life is a side benefit of making it cheaper, but not a design goal.

    It may look like splitting hairs, but it better describes the place we're in, & it makes clear the path out…

    No, but I worked for a small manufacturing company that made industrial equipment. Historically, designs were 25% more robust than necessary. Never had a problem. The equipment lasted forever. The CEO says "we're giving away 25% for free. We can't be competitive if we charge 25% more, so engineer out that extra 25%". That was a mistake. Warranty costs sky rocketed and within five years the company was sold to a competitor. The father, the first CEO, was an engineer, dictated the extra 25% back in the fifties. The son, who became CEO in the early 90's, was a business man. The company was sold in 2004.
    Great story that illustrates how that younger CEO didn't understand deviations from the mean. If you want the vast majority of units to meet the design specification you need to set your manufacturing goal for that specification far above it to account for variation in the manufacturing process,  AKA: quality control.  If you set your manufacturing goal right at the specification then 50% of your product will be under spec.

    An importer of machine tools once explained to me that the problem with Chinese tools wasn't that their design was bad, mostly it was copies of American tools, it was that their quality control sucked. So unless you did like he did and toured every factory and observed their practices before contracting with them, you end up with every purchase being a spin of the roulette wheel. 
    BobC
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
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    Do you folks think this is going way off topic? Perhaps it needs its own thread?
    Retired and loving it.
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,590
    edited February 2022
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    The funny thing is this is in the Riverdale Press but Ft Independence is nowhere near Riverdale! I don't think Riverdale has projects. Unless you consider the Russian Diplomatic Compound a project building. Looks like one. Another slow news day in Riverdale!

  • cross_skier
    cross_skier Member Posts: 201
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    I'm really surprised a group has not stepped up and offered to help given the publicity.  If you had a team with a steam expert with a great track record at an institution, an engineer, a purchasing guy, a PR person there is a lot of good they could do and probably make a decent profit.  If they were really smart they would develop a process, give a sexy name like "Encore" and say it could fix any institution's steam system.
    CLamb
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
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    @SlamDunk, the Fort Independence Houses are in the Bronx, just 3.3 miles from Riverdale.
    Retired and loving it.
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 748
    edited February 2022
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    I'm really surprised a group has not stepped up and offered to help given the publicity.  If you had a team with a steam expert with a great track record at an institution, an engineer, a purchasing guy, a PR person there is a lot of good they could do and probably make a decent profit.  If they were really smart they would develop a process, give a sexy name like "Encore" and say it could fix any institution's steam system.

    Look up higher. Dan and the General Society tried. There'$ $omething el$e going on. ;)
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
    edited February 2022
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    During the late-'70s, the City replaced the windows in most of these buildings. It was a huge business and the Mafia was involved. The problem, though, was there is no mechanical ventilation in these buildings. Tenants kept cooking and bathing, as you would expect, and that led to a black-mold problem that spread everywhere.

    No one had considered this beforehand.

    They solved the mold problem by drilling holes in metal frames of the the brand-new windows so fresh air could get it, just as did with the original, leaky windows.
    Retired and loving it.
    delcrossvCLambSuperTech
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,287
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    >>First, I know a few guys who can, and do repair them. So saying it's not repairable is false.<<

    who cuts open a hermetic compressor and then welds it closed?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,776
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    jumper said:

    >>First, I know a few guys who can, and do repair them. So saying it's not repairable is false.<<

    who cuts open a hermetic compressor and then welds it closed? </p>

    We need to get the thread back on track but no, I wasn't misunderstanding, it's a thing on antiques.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,776
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    @DanHolohan Has there been any discussions on how the electric will be generated in the future for this?

    Are there any nuclear plants planned?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    wmgeorgedelcrossv
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
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    @ChrisJ ConEd just applied for a very large rate increase with the State. It's for the infrastructure for this, and other electrical things that are on the way. They don't seem at all concerned.
    Retired and loving it.
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,776
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    @ChrisJ ConEd just applied for a very large rate increase with the State. It's for the infrastructure for this, and other electrical things that are on the way. They don't seem at all concerned.

    Oh I'm sure they're not concerned I was just curious.

    I have no doubt ConED is over there like


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
    edited February 2022
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  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,889
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    Seems the most accurate part of that company's name is "Con".
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    wmgeorgeSTEAM DOCTORSuperTech
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,430
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    What amazes me, @DanHolohan , is that someone thinks that such rate rises are surprising. Maybe "thinks" isn't the right word...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
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    Yes.
    Retired and loving it.
  • wmgeorge
    wmgeorge Member Posts: 222
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    Aside from nuclear which we need to be doing right now can you folks who do not live in a apartment put up your own solar panels like we can?
    Old retired Commercial HVAC/R guy in Iowa. Master electrician.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,776
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    I don't think homeowners can install wind turbines
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • fentonc
    fentonc Member Posts: 239
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    There have been (and continue to be) very good incentives for installing solar in ConEd territory - I put panels on my house in 2018 and have full net metering with ConEd. I'm still disappointed that NY shutdown Indian Point (which is in my backyard, more or less), but there are also a number of offshore wind farms in development, in addition to a number of proposals to bring in more hydroelectric power from canada.
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 748
    edited February 2022
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    ChrisJ said:

    @DanHolohan Has there been any discussions on how the electric will be generated in the future for this?

    Are there any nuclear plants planned?

    If only. They did just close Indian Point. :(
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,430
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    Sure, we can put up solar panels. Here in New England we get almost 3 hours of sunshine per day on the average, year 'round. Which means you need a lot of panel area to be close to breaking even for ordinary domestic use, never mind heating -- and you also need a lot of battery capacity, since it is not uncommon to go three or four days with negligible solar input.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    delcrossv
This discussion has been closed.